Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
SENIOR RATING

 


a63jmt300  (A License)

Jun 3, 2009, 6:01 PM
Post #1 of 18 (1107 views)
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SENIOR RATING Can't Post

 
quick questions:

what can senior riggers do other than pack reserves? can they line a canopy for instance?

can they patch a canopy? or is this required by a master rigger?

FINALLY, the most important question of all.... what is considered "keeping current". Does a senior rigger have to work 90 days out of the year to keep current or just pack 90 reserves or mains?

i have gone through every FAA regulation and can't find squat to answer my own questions. All I can find is the difference from a senior and a master rigger is anything considered "alter". Master riggers are the only ones authorized to alter a canopy or rig.

Please help


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 3, 2009, 6:30 PM
Post #2 of 18 (1087 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

You can patch or re-line your MAIN canopy yourself.

You reserve is another matter.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jun 3, 2009, 9:18 PM)


a63jmt300  (A License)

Jun 3, 2009, 6:32 PM
Post #3 of 18 (1087 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

i found the following, so this answers some questions:

Sec. 65.125

Certificates: Privileges.

(a) A certificated senior parachute rigger may --
(1) Pack or maintain (except for major repair) any type of parachute for which he is rated;
and
[(2) Supervise other persons in packing any type of parachute for which that person is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.]
(b) A certificated master parachute rigger may --
(1) Pack, maintain, or alter any type of parachute for which he is rated; and
[(2) Supervise other persons in packing, maintaining, or altering any type of parachute for which the certificated parachute rigger is rated in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) or Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.]
(c) A certificated parachute rigger need not comply with 65.127 through 65.133 (relating to facilities, equipment, performance standards, records, recent experience, and seal) in packing, maintaining, or altering (if authorized) the main parachute of a dual parachute pack to be used for intentional jumping.


HOWEVER.... what is considered "major repair"?

and "maintain" meaning a senior rigger can attach a main or reserve type parachute to the harness/container type system?

This is a little confusing... i'll go to my dropzone tomorrow for clarification. The damn FAA doesn't go into detail with anything....


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Jun 3, 2009, 6:43 PM
Post #4 of 18 (1076 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Out of curiosity - you list Back and Chest ratings in your profile - so you obviously were either trained by a rigger, or went to a rigger school - why not call/email those good people for the explanation ? Or perhaps even the DPRE who tested you ?


fmmobley  (D 29558)

Jun 3, 2009, 6:51 PM
Post #5 of 18 (1075 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it just meant they were over 50.


johnny1488  (D 25453)

Jun 3, 2009, 7:52 PM
Post #6 of 18 (1045 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

A major repair is one that effects the airworthyness of a canopy.
ie small patch, canopy will still fly. Large patch with ribs and seams involved, it might not fly the same.

Replacing lines or a line was explained to me as a major repair. Now there is no paper trail with mains, but that is "allegedly" master rigger territory.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jun 3, 2009, 8:12 PM
Post #7 of 18 (1032 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

No, you can't.Crazy

This is the current language.

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person--

(1) Has an appropriate current certificate issued under this subpart;

(2) Is under the supervision of a current certificated parachute rigger;

(3) Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) of this chapter; or

(4) Is the parachutist in command making the next parachute jump with that parachute in a tandem parachute operation conducted under Sec. 105.45(b)(1) of this chapter.



It can be read that the next person or pilot in command of a tandem can maintain or alter. That was an editing error in the 2004 change. The language before allowed the next jumper or pilot in command to pack, but not maintain or alter. Than meaning is still what is intended by the FAA. They are supposed to be working on an emergency change to revert to language consistent with the pre 2004 version. Of couse they've been working on it for 2 years.Wink

Lots of us were taught that anyone can do anything to a main. That's never been true under the regulations but has often been the practice. It's always taken a senior or master rigger as appropriate for the maintainance or alteration. What is true is that you don't have to keep records on a main. Or course it's always been clear the repack cylce of 60, 120 and now 180 days applied to mains. So have all the other regulations.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jun 3, 2009, 8:21 PM
Post #8 of 18 (1026 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

It has been the long term interpretation and has been upheld in some enforcement actions that a senior rigger can assemble componets, including an AAD into an AAD ready rig. Even though if done wrong it can affect the airworthiness.

As above the routine definition of a major repair is one that affects the airworthyness if done wrong. In practice many riggers, and DPRE's, disagree on whether specific repairs are major or minor. Including some in the FAA handbook written by Sandy Reid.

These are not quick questions!Wink We've (many in the rigging community, including the PIA rigging commettee) have been arguing about some of these for decades.

There is some guidance in AC105. And AC 105 is currently being rewritten by the FAA, with the help of USPA and PIA.


airtwardo  (D License)

Jun 3, 2009, 9:35 PM
Post #9 of 18 (998 views)
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Re: [councilman24] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

(b) No person may pack, maintain, or alter any main parachute of a dual-parachute system to be used for intentional parachute jumping in connection with civil aircraft of the United States unless that person--

Is the person making the next parachute jump with that parachute in accordance with Sec. 105.43(a) of this chapter..

Doh....

I always thought it was one of the 4 not 'all' of the 4.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Jun 5, 2009, 7:40 AM
Post #10 of 18 (793 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude-

Your profile tells me you're used to begging but it also tells me you're a senior rigger with back & chest ratings - so I don't know why you're panhandling here.

36 jumps, 1 year in the sport, aerial photog. Maybe you're military trained and haven't heard of the rigger's reference: Poynter's 'The Parachute Manual', vols 1 &2. Maybe your profile is full of it.

Check Poynters. Everything you want to know is in there.


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 5, 2009, 10:11 PM
Post #11 of 18 (707 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

Main canopy reline is a MAJOR repair / work & it is by Master Rigger only who knows the work & have the machines.

With today H/P main canopies you really should know how to it right = right materials & spec.

Same for patching - should be done right & nice.

Skydivers & riggers should stop thinking that on a main canopy all can be done by Owners / Senior Riggers.

Any lines work is a Major Repair.

Be Safe & Study !!!


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 5, 2009, 10:32 PM
Post #12 of 18 (703 views)
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Re: [a63jmt300] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi

The FAR's & AC105-2C are very clear about that.

A Senior Rigger have a very LIMITED canopy repairs area to deal with - she / he may do repairs under a Master Rigger supervision for studing the right methods.

No lines work & No large and / or seam / tapes involved patching work & No Tapes or line attachments work.

Right materials & threads must be used with the right sewing machines.

Before you do repairs by your limits - PRACTICE & let a Master Rigger see it - Real canopy is a very different story.

H/C repairs are a different area & Yes, a Grommet setting is a MAJOR Repair IMO & right tools & skill are very important.

The MOST important area for all Riggers is STUDYING - we are students for life.

The Very Most important is KNOW your LIMITS !!! Legal & Practical.

Be Safe !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jun 5, 2009, 10:35 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Jun 6, 2009, 7:19 AM
Post #13 of 18 (654 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Skydivers & riggers should stop thinking that on a main canopy all can be done by Owners / Senior Riggers.

Why, so you can make another buck? Amazing how long you've been around and how little you've learned.


mark  (D 6108)

Jun 6, 2009, 8:35 AM
Post #14 of 18 (647 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Skydivers & riggers should stop thinking that on a main canopy all can be done by Owners / Senior Riggers.

Why, so you can make another buck? Amazing how long you've been around and how little you've learned.

That's uncalled for. I disagree with Shlomo on what the regulations require and what skill levels parachute riggers may possess, but I do not doubt that his first priority is the safety of his customers, not the state of his pocketbook.

Mark


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 7, 2009, 8:04 AM
Post #15 of 18 (593 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Dear J.P

Thanks for the post.

You may think different & a nice PRO chat could start BUT when you try as always to go personal & low I can feel only sorry for you.

You might be a great person which thinks different & that I'll respect - the way you show here brings up some ?????

Sorry, I was not grow up on the value of money & money racing as a life aim - maybe you were - I was educated on very different values - in life & in sport skydiving / rigging area.

Because I'm so long in the sport & rigging I know what I'm talking about & why I said that any lines work on a Main is a Major Repair = Master Rigger who knows the work & have the right machines.

There are more Master Riggers in the market thinking the same - it is NOT for the $$$ it is for the user SAFETY.

J.P - if you like to move on with a nice PRO chat - you welcome.

Be Safe !!!


(This post was edited by RIGGER on Jun 7, 2009, 10:33 AM)


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 7, 2009, 8:08 AM
Post #16 of 18 (588 views)
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Re: [mark] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi Mark

Was great to see you at the PIA.

Thanks for the back up - we might think different on that subject but this is well respected.

Cheers !!!


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Jun 7, 2009, 8:40 AM
Post #17 of 18 (579 views)
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Re: [RIGGER] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

I am backing Shlomo on this issue.

The ironic part is that the louder a poster waxes eloquent about his "god-given right to re-line his own main canopy" the less he knows about which end of the needle goes up!

Tee!
Hee!


RIGGER  (D 7933)

Jun 7, 2009, 10:35 AM
Post #18 of 18 (561 views)
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Re: [riggerrob] SENIOR RATING [In reply to] Can't Post

Smile Hi Rob

It was great to see you at PIA 09.

Thanks for the back up.

Cheers !!!



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