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Honoruru

May 26, 2009, 7:15 PM
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I bought a cookie ozone the other week on the basis that I'm a beginner and need something to make me cool so my best starting point was a flashy carbon fiber helmet. Based on the previous poster's helmet related question I'm wondering how safe and protective this helmet actually is. As on of the replies mentioned, the cookie helmets come with a big warning sticker that says the helmet isn't meant for use as protection. Is it just gonna split wide open the first time my head bounces off of something? Not sure if I really believe the hype on the "d30" intelligent molecules..... pff...
Also, I am looking into getting a canopy for my first rig and as a novice with 24 jumps I'm wondering what model would suit me the best. I've been flying a sabre 2 190. I weigh about 190 or so and I want something that will be fun and responsive to fly. I tried out a 170 and screwed my landing a bit the first time around as I cut it close coming back to the dropzone and landed heading downwind. What canopy model would you guys suggest?


AggieDave  (D License)

May 26, 2009, 7:32 PM
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That sticker means that the helmet isn't rated to take an impact. An example would be a motorcycle helmet rated by Snell or DOT. Those helmets have been tested to take an impact. If you do a search, you'll find many posts about this topic with a lot of explanation.

As a side note, the jumper makes the jumper, not the gear. Keep it simple and spend your money on quality coaching. Having the ability to fly your body and your canopy extremely well will speak volumes. That will get you on the cool sunset loads and invited on the larger skydives. A neat kit won't.


councilman24  (D 8631)

May 26, 2009, 8:17 PM
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Yes it is going to split open the first time you hit something and the carbon fiber razor edge of the break will slice your head wide open. Not particularly kidding. Expect this helmet to keep your hair out of the breeze, be a place to put your audible altimeter, and a place to put stickers. It might help a little when you standup and hit a rib in the airplane. But as far as a screwed up landing or a freefall collision some claim they are worse than nothing.

As for a 190 sabre II you can get away with it when someone else is looking out for you. But at 190 you are 220 out the door. Pushing the envelope already.

Yes hundreds of skydivers have gotten away with it. And I got away with a lot in the beginning also. But it's not worth it. I didn't get away with everything.


Gary73  (D 21341)

May 26, 2009, 8:35 PM
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In order to be light enough to be practical, a skydiving helmet can't be as sturdy as a modern motorcycle helmet. Even so, there's no doubt at all in my mind that you're better off with one than without. Even if the helmet is destroyed in a hard hit, the energy that it absorbs in the process of being destroyed is energy that won't go toward smashing your skull.

As for canopy size, yeah, definitely keep your wing loading below 1.0 PSF until you have a C license, especially if you're going to jump a slightly elliptical canopy like a Sabre2. As for which model is best, that's mostly a matter of opinion, and there are really too many factors to go into here. Talk with your Instructors and get a feel for what will be best for you.


Johnny_Cage12  (A 53324)

May 26, 2009, 10:52 PM
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Re: [councilman24] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But as far as a screwed up landing or a freefall collision some claim they are worse than nothing.

Seriously?!?! Who?

In reply to:
As for a 190 sabre II you can get away with it when someone else is looking out for you. But at 190 you are 220 out the door. Pushing the envelope already.

Talk to YOUR instructors at YOUR dz to find out what will work well for YOU. While being conservative is a good thing, most people will offer advice that is easy to give when it's not their money. With that being said, pick a canopy that will fit you well. You should be able to land your canopy comfortably in all wind conditions safely before moving on. Picking a canopy style that is sized correctly will make your choice a good investment. The best people to help you with that decision are the people that watch you land on a regular basis.

In reply to:
Yes hundreds of skydivers have gotten away with it. And I got away with a lot in the beginning also. But it's not worth it. I didn't get away with everything.

This is true but will be different for each skydiver. Talk to the people who know you best.

Blue skies,

John


(This post was edited by Johnny_Cage12 on May 26, 2009, 10:52 PM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 26, 2009, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
While being conservative is a good thing, most people will offer advice that is easy to give when it's not their money.

A sabre2 for a first canopy at 220 out the door is NOT considered conservative Crazy


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

May 27, 2009, 11:36 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
As for a 190 sabre II you can get away with it when someone else is looking out for you. But at 190 you are 220 out the door. Pushing the envelope already.

Talk to YOUR instructors at YOUR dz to find out what will work well for YOU. While being conservative is a good thing, most people will offer advice that is easy to give when it's not their money.

I agree with your assessment of 'talk to the instructors at your DZ.' But I also agree with 'Consider your source'.

Even not knowing what I know of Terry, I'd trust the advice of a Master rigger / S&TA / USPA Board member with MANY years in the sport and thousands of skydives much more than I would someone with <1 year in the sport and 50 jumps. I'm pretty darn sure he's not just 'offering advice that's easy to give when it's not his money.'

(Not saying you don't mean well...I just disagree with your motivation. Hospital bills and lost time are much more costly than the cost of buying a conservative canopy and waiting until you have the experience to downsize).

(And if you don't believe me, stick around a while and watch a newer jumper pound it in under a canopy they *thought* they were comfortable flying. The sound of bones snapping from across the landing area will stick with you for a good long while.)

---

To the OP, talk to your instructors. But I agree with Terry - the 170 (& possibly even the 190) does seem to be taking it a little fast.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
May 27, 2009, 11:47 PM
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Re: [Honoruru] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

having seen the aftermath of a freefall impact on the ground, the deceased having worn a Bonehead Mindwarp (open face composite), the jokes and sayings about the "face being recognizable" are fairly accurate.
A full face might leave a little more of the facial area intact.
A mindwarp protected my head on an in-door bridle deployment that when the pilot chute took off, I was slammed against the side of the aircraft. Still have the paint in my helmet to this day, and the aircraft bears my mark. I imagine I'd have paint embedded in my cheek and forehead were it not for a decent, albeit non-rated helmet.
One other thing...if you're gonna wingsuit; wear a helmet. Our collisions are nearly always forward moving (placing the head as the first imact point) and you just might find yourself having a bad day without a helmet.
Kinda strange, I refuse to wear helmets on motorcycles, bulls, or horses, and won't use a seatbelt anywhere but on the aircraft. But I wear a helmet on most every skydive.Crazy


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

May 28, 2009, 1:32 AM
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In reply to:
I bought a cookie ozone the other week on the basis that I'm a beginner and need something to make me cool so my best starting point was a flashy carbon fiber helmet. Based on the previous poster's helmet related question I'm wondering how safe and protective this helmet actually is. As on of the replies mentioned, the cookie helmets come with a big warning sticker that says the helmet isn't meant for use as protection. Is it just gonna split wide open the first time my head bounces off of something? Not sure if I really believe the hype on the "d30" intelligent molecules..... pff...
Also, I am looking into getting a canopy for my first rig and as a novice with 24 jumps I'm wondering what model would suit me the best. I've been flying a sabre 2 190. I weigh about 190 or so and I want something that will be fun and responsive to fly. I tried out a 170 and screwed my landing a bit the first time around as I cut it close coming back to the dropzone and landed heading downwind. What canopy model would you guys suggest?

Try landing down-wind on concrete. Once your rig has been repaired try a 90 degree turn at roof top height. Once you get the cast off buy yourself a Sabre 2 210 and learn how to fly it. After 125 jumps total try a 190 if you're doing everything on Bill von Novak and Brian Germain's checklists and at 250 try a 170.

Landing straight in is easy. Basic maneuvers aren't too exciting until things start getting wrong but that's exactly what you're sizing your canopy for - a down-wind landing on pavement following a low turn to avoid power lines you didn't see until it was almost too late due to low light on the sunset load where you are landing out due to a bad spot because some cute girls flashed the pilot, everyone got extra altitude, and your hypoxic friend got his foot stuck on the seatbelt so your climbout took too long.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on May 28, 2009, 1:38 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

May 28, 2009, 1:41 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Yes hundreds of skydivers have gotten away with it. And I got away with a lot in the beginning also. But it's not worth it. I didn't get away with everything.

This is true but will be different for each skydiver. Talk to the people who know you best.

Until people have successfully dealt with a number of abnormal situations there's no way of knowing how different it is for them. At 25 jumps people should be conservative because they haven't experienced a lot of those situations, or they should be conservative because they've experienced a lot of them due to bad judgement and need all the safety margin they can get.

Read Brian Germain's wing loading documents. He knows more than you, your riends, and your instructors.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on May 28, 2009, 1:49 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

May 28, 2009, 1:47 AM
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In reply to:
Talk to YOUR instructors at YOUR dz to find out what will work well for YOU. While being conservative is a good thing, most people will offer advice that is easy to give when it's not their money

I've down sized half a dozen times and never spent more than a buck or two a jump on depreciation. With a little patience and awareness of used gear prices you're going to spend the same money regardless of how many canopies you go through. If you're a deal maker you'll actually make more money when you take more steps.

My insurance companies and I spent about $40,000 on medical bills, lost wages, getting home, and things like that after I was stupid. At under a pound per square foot. It was painful too.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on May 28, 2009, 1:49 AM)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 28, 2009, 5:08 AM
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In reply to:
Landing straight in is easy. Basic maneuvers aren't too exciting until things start getting wrong but that's exactly what you're sizing your canopy for - a down-wind landing on pavement following a low turn to avoid power lines you didn't see until it was almost too late due to low light on the sunset load where you are landing out due to a bad spot because some cute girls flashed the pilot, everyone got extra altitude, and your hypoxic friend got his foot stuck on the seatbelt so your climbout took too long.

Thank you Thank you, Thank you.
Funny how downsizers adamantly avoid addressing this issue.

*sarcasm*
Downsizing is all about everything but the important stuff.
*/sarcasm*


Johnny_Cage12  (A 53324)

May 28, 2009, 8:22 AM
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In reply to:
I agree with your assessment of 'talk to the instructors at your DZ.' But I also agree with 'Consider your source'.

I am glad you agree with the first part. But I am guessing you are referencing me with the "Consider your source" which I am curious to know where I offered any advice about what canopy this guy should fly. I simply said it would be a good thing to talk to his instructors.

In reply to:
Even not knowing what I know of Terry, I'd trust the advice of a Master rigger / S&TA / USPA Board member with MANY years in the sport and thousands of skydives much more than I would someone with <1 year in the sport and 50 jumps. I'm pretty darn sure he's not just 'offering advice that's easy to give when it's not his money.'

I have never met Terry either and I am sure he is offering helpful advice. That certainly isn't the case for all advice given on here.

In reply to:
(Not saying you don't mean well...I just disagree with your motivation. Hospital bills and lost time are much more costly than the cost of buying a conservative canopy and waiting until you have the experience to downsize).

Motivation? I simply told the guy to talk to his instructors. I didn't offer to sell him some sweet 170 or anything like that. And of course medical bills will usually cost more than a canopy but that does not mean everyone should just jump a 290. The goal is to work to downsize in a safe manner. That was my motivation.

In reply to:
To the OP, talk to your instructors. But I agree with Terry - the 170 (& possibly even the 190) does seem to be taking it a little fast.

Wow that sounds like great advice! I would also recommend talking to your instructors. Sorry for the sarcasm but after "considering the source" you seem to offer similar advice. Not all newbie advice is bad especially when they defer to those who have been in the sport a long time.

And maybe I take it for granted but my dz has some of the best instructors around, the owner is a sitting board member and safety is the most important thing. Maybe that is why I trust their advice the most.


LloydDobbler  (D 30655)

May 28, 2009, 10:58 AM
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To some extent, I was saying the OP should discount your advice based on your jump numbers and background (or lack thereof).

But it wasn't the advice to talk to his instructors that I took issue with - it was the way you questioned a lot of the advice councilman24 was offering, and then advised the OP that 'everybody's different,' implying that he'll be okay under a higher-loaded 170. That sort of advice is dangerous for a new jumper, IMO.

With less than a year in the sport, you likely haven't been here long enough to recognize 'mad skillz syndrome' - but it happens far too frequently with newer jumpers, and it's never good to encourage it. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, a quick search in the incidents forum will bring you up to speed). I don't know that the OP would go down that path, but it makes little sense to recommend that he start seeing things that way. Especially when that advice is given by someone with only 50 jumps and not a lot of time in the sport.

To be fair, maybe you didn't mean it like that. But it did come off that way when I read it. Even moreso when I looked at your profile and saw that you're flying a 150sf Safire2 loaded at 1.3 when you're just off of student status yourself.


Then there's this:

Quote:
Talk to YOUR instructors at YOUR dz to find out what will work well for YOU. While being conservative is a good thing, most people will offer advice that is easy to give when it's not their money.

Since this remark was included in a reply to councilman24, it seemed reasonable to assume that you were directing it at him.

Being just off student status yourself, you probably don't have enough perspective to see that in the beginning, it makes little sense to advise a newer jumper to be less conservative (which you did, indirectly, by implying that councilman24 was just giving easy advice because 'it's not his money').

I don't have that much more experience than you...but with three years in the sport, I've now seen my share of the things that result from newer jumpers thinking 'I can handle that canopy.'


That's why I recommended he consider the source. Your advice about the OP talking to his instructors was well-stated. Your discounting councilman24's recommendations about choosing conservatively - and implying that he was merely giving easy advice because 'it's not his money' - was not.


Johnny_Cage12  (A 53324)

May 28, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Lloyd,

Fair enough. I don't actually fly the Safire2 (and have more than 50 jumps) yet but will look to be more careful in what any of my posts imply either directly or indirectly.

I took issue with council offering baseless advice that "some" say its better to not fly with a helmet or in particular a Cookie helmet than flying with one. That is NOT good advice. So instead of listening to that, I was recommending he talk to someone at his dz.

But just as a final note, I do think that everyone is different when it comes to skills both while falling and subsequently under canopy. Now I am not implying that I am a 50 jump wonder or that I know a lot but I talk with a lot with people that have thousands and thousands of jumps (one over 14000) and I am willing to listen and learn all the time.

I think specific jump requirements are very limited in protecting a jumper. Now I think they are necessary but they have their limitations. While a jumper may not need to wait for 200 jumps to put a camera on his/her head to be safe, some jumpers are not ready at that jump number so what I was trying to say to the OP was to talk with your instructors and find out a good way to plan your downsizing. BG offers a good (and conservative) chart for downsizing but you may find yourself ready to downsize before that or you may find you need more jumps before going smaller. A trained instructor with multiple years in the sport will have very good insight (especially after watching you land a couple of times) and whether it will be safe to downsize.

Good luck OP and blue skies Lloyd. Good looking out!

John


dragon2  (D 101989)

May 28, 2009, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
BG offers a good (and conservative) chart for downsizing but you may find yourself ready to downsize before that or you may find you need more jumps before going smaller.

Blah blah blah.

Quote:
I think specific jump requirements are very limited in protecting a jumper. Now I think they are necessary but they have their limitations. While a jumper may not need to wait for 200 jumps to put a camera on his/her head

More blah blah.

GB's chart is not conservative, and neither is the 190 for this particular jumper as your post seems to imply. In fact that canopy choice would not even be allowed in some countries. And the 200 jump rule for camera should be the absolute minimum. You really do come across as a 50 jump wonder. Stay in the sport longer and you'll see why hundreds of jumps MINIMUM (no matter how great you think you are) for flying camera, wingsuit, canopy loaded at 1.3 etc are a good idea. At 50 jumps and short time in the sport you have no clue, I'd start jumping more, listening to the 14000 jump people more and giving advice less... Then come back after a few hundred jumps and laugh at yourself Wink And maybe again a few hundred jumps later Tongue


Johnny_Cage12  (A 53324)

May 28, 2009, 1:10 PM
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In reply to:
GB's chart is not conservative, and neither is the 190 for this particular jumper as your post seems to imply. In fact that canopy choice would not even be allowed in some countries. And the 200 jump rule for camera should be the absolute minimum. You really do come across as a 50 jump wonder. Stay in the sport longer and you'll see why hundreds of jumps MINIMUM (no matter how great you think you are) for flying camera, wingsuit, canopy loaded at 1.3 etc are a good idea. At 50 jumps and short time in the sport you have no clue, I'd start jumping more, listening to the 14000 jump people more and giving advice less... Then come back after a few hundred jumps and laugh at yourself Wink And maybe again a few hundred jumps later Tongue

Ouch.

The only advice I gave was to talk to his instructors. Telling him that some recommendations are based without the financials being considered is not advice about what to buy it is simply a statement. The safety of a jumper is #1 and I don't put a $$$ amount on that but buying every single size down from a 240 isn't necessarily the best option either. I liked the response that said fly a 210 for a long time then try out a 170 after 250 jumps.

I never offered any advice about what canopy to fly.

Also, like I said I don't fly the Safire2 now and havent yet. I am not at a 1.3 wingloading and dont jump camera. I never said the jumper should jump a 190 or smaller and never said his particular choice was conservative. I simply said talk to his instructors about finding the right canopy shape and size for him. It is advice that SHOULD be given on here more often or we need to retool our instructor training programs.

I think its funny that you add your thoughts about my last post, cut the couple parts out so that you can justify your 50 jump wonder claim yet don't even address councils post about not wearing a helmet.

Not addressing that part is irresponsible.

But enough with the thread hijacking.


mrbiceps  (D License)

May 28, 2009, 4:44 PM
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Re: [Johnny_Cage12] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

I brought a cookie rok and it is for sale at the moment and i have ordered a mountain bike helmet, they have heaps more protection from a decent impact. I figure that if your going to wear a helmet you might as well have one that actually protects your head. Like you said even cookie has that sticker on them saying that they are not a crash helmet.


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

May 29, 2009, 10:19 AM
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

Landing straight in is easy. Basic maneuvers aren't too exciting until things start getting wrong but that's exactly what you're sizing your canopy for - a down-wind landing on pavement following a low turn to avoid power lines you didn't see until it was almost too late due to low light on the sunset load where you are landing out due to a bad spot because some cute girls flashed the pilot, everyone got extra altitude, and your hypoxic friend got his foot stuck on the seatbelt so your climbout took too long.
Thanks for that. It's going in a document where I save all the quotes that I like.


erdnarob  (D 364)

May 30, 2009, 8:44 AM
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Re: [Honoruru] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

You always have to remember that the first purpose of wearing a helmet in skydiving is to protect your head from a riser strike at deployment. Risers under a 3-4G tension at opening are like steel bars. A friend of mine at Skydive New England on Memorial Day last weekend got a reminder of this. He has a full face helmet and got seemingly a riser strike on the right side of his head. He had bitten his tongue and his right ear was swolen. He asked me what was the cause. I told him that he was likely partially banking on his right side at opening. However he had the impression that he was stable.
Unstable openings can happen once in a while anytime to anybody for all kind of reasons. Personally I prefer to have a helmet where no riser or line can catch any part of especially under the chin on the side. That's why I jump with a frap hat which fits closely my head. But a carbon fiber helmet would be my choice if I was going to jump with a hard shell helmet. I still believe that a frap hat provides the best peripheral vision since no part of it is protruding. Old fashion maybe but function before fashion for sure!!!


Andy9o8  (D License)

May 31, 2009, 6:00 AM
Post #21 of 22 (931 views)
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Re: [Johnny_Cage12] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

You know, being OCD probably works great for the engineering side of your life, but you really need to get over the obsessive compulsion to get the last word in. Does not do you much good in a discussion like this.


format  (B 15348)

May 31, 2009, 7:28 PM
Post #22 of 22 (897 views)
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Re: [Johnny_Cage12] 2 questions [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Sorry for breaking the news but

come back with a comment when you're 10000 jumps old


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