Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Clear plane, then pull!

 


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 18, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Clear plane, then pull! Can't Post

Okay, lets open up a long overdue discussion:

I get to watch a lot of crw dogs exit the aircraft, and it just seems surprising to me the number of people that have a hand on their pilotchute, and then exit! Sometimes they are out the door, sometimes next to the door, sometimes still in the door! Not just at my local dz, but at the Nationals, and even at world record try-outs. I can understand if you are a noob and you're a little nervous, but if you've have any confidence at all in your ability to deploy, then leaving with your hand down on your pack is counterproductive. Your rig shouldn't be going anywhere without you and your p/c should be where it has always been.

When I or any of my teammates exit, we do a poised exit, look back at the aircraft, feel the change in airflow as we leave the prop wash, and then reach for the deployment system. Pulling sooner does no good, as you are in the "dirty air" of the aircraft and it gives less than ideal openings. Also, the pilot hates to see pilotchutes, d-bags, and nylon at the height of his/her horizontal. Plus, getting a terrible opening can lead to collisions with jumpers you are exiting with.

I understand that some top-end comp teams may pull fairly quickly, but most recognize the importance of a clean deployment over a fast deployment. And these are the guys going for world records on jumps, not trying to build a four-way from 13k.

Discussion?

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Stuntbabex  (B 31228)

May 19, 2009, 12:02 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

I know youre talking about me. Tongue


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 19, 2009, 9:00 AM
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Re: [Stuntbabex] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't learn from others mistakes!Smile


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 19, 2009, 10:51 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

 How is leaving with your hand on or near the BOC counter productive as long as the body is stable and the PC isn't pulled until the proper delay?


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 19, 2009, 1:00 PM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How is leaving with your hand on or near the BOC counter productive as long as the body is stable and the PC isn't pulled until the proper delay?

Most people have a right hand boc, which means on the Otter, beech, caravan, etc. your hand closest to the front of the plane/prop wash is not controlling your exit or your freefall. Sometimes this works great, some people can get away with it, but if you bump your head, shoulder, knee on the way out, you do not have some of the control surfaces to aid in a stable deployment. I can't count the number of times I've seen a pilot chute come up through someones legs when they are head down out the door, and the response was, "I tripped as I left the plane, but I was pulling already."

Time how long it takes to reach your boc from a soft arch position, maybe a couple of tenths of a second. That translates into how many feet on exit... ten. If ten feet is making a difference on your altitude for deployment, then a new pilotchute would help, or ask the base to take a heartbeat longer delay.

I'll put it back to you, what is gained by having your hand on your boc when you are leaving the aircraft?
Especially when it is the risk to you, the plane, those you are exiting with, and the rest of the jumpers left in the aircraft.

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VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 19, 2009, 4:57 PM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll put it back to you, what is gained by having your hand on your boc when you are leaving the aircraft?
Especially when it is the risk to you, the plane, those you are exiting with, and the rest of the jumpers left in the aircraft.

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I never pull until I'm clear of the plane. Typically my slot is a later dock and I'm taking a descent delay. Most of the time I take a hands free poised exit as you recommend.

I do however exit with my hands on hackey/ pud when Im jumping unfamiliar gear if its tactily different than my own. It is silly but I have experienced late or hard pulls on borrowed containers.

We might swap gear to accomodate the various people we fly with that don't have their own.
I borrowed gear at nationals for one event I didn't initially intend on entering that was different. Last weekend I jumped my loaned out canopy in a borrowed container ( we're incestous with CRW gear down here) and its fit was very different.

Pull out, throw out, BOC pull out. With me its just a mental thing for unfamiliar gear.


Stuntbabex  (B 31228)

May 19, 2009, 9:38 PM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

You mean you don't remember giving me a talkin to about doing that when I was at lodi? Shocked

I mean...uh.... that never happened. Angelic


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 20, 2009, 8:37 AM
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Re: [Stuntbabex] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You mean you don't remember giving me a talkin to about doing that when I was at lodi? Shocked

I mean...uh.... that never happened. Angelic

Yes, but you have already been talked with, so we don't chew twice! Trying to get the word out to others that this is a very dangerous practice.

Really, what is surprising to me is the number of very experienced jumpers who have this bad habit.

I understand that gear may be unfamiliar in some cases, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse. No jumpmaster would let a student out of the plane who insisted they needed to exit with a hand on the deployment handle (pud, boc, ripcord, whatever), so why do we tolerate that in more experienced jumpers? If you are borrowing gear, get it on early, practice touches, get familiar with the location of the handle, and then focus on getting a good exit.

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pirana  (D 30661)

May 20, 2009, 12:37 PM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just did a CRW camp, so only 5 jumps into it, but here is my take.

I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.


Stuntbabex  (B 31228)

May 20, 2009, 9:01 PM
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Re: [pirana] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just did a CRW camp, so only 5 jumps into it, but here is my take.

I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.

Thats actually more or less the reason I did it too. It was just easier for me to keep track of the seconds and be more precise with my pull time. Guess that falls under the "scared noob" catergory. Blush


voyagers47  (D 29173)

May 20, 2009, 10:15 PM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see it as a problem as long as they aren't pulling as they leave the plane. Are the people you are watching leaving stable and then pulling when clear of the plane? If so no problem. If they are leaving with a hand on their PC and pulling immediately or unstable then that's an issue.


parachutist  (D 25468)

May 21, 2009, 2:00 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Okay, lets open up a long overdue discussion:

Interesting gripe. I've no desire to leave with hand on the hacky (or frog, or barbie head, or whatever in CRW). Then again I've never seen an issue caused by those who do it regularly. I've watched it happen out of Twin Otters and Casas plenty of times without a hitch, so it never really bugged me... just seemed different.

Chris


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 21, 2009, 7:08 AM
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Re: [parachutist] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

Then again I've never seen an issue caused by those who do it regularly. I've watched it happen out of Twin Otters and Casas plenty of times without a hitch, so it never really bugged me... just seemed different.

Chris
Exactly the way I feel about it. Stability is provided by the whole body not just the one arm that is not equally in the slip stream. I've honestly never given it a second thought until this discussion.


rehmwa  (D 12816)

May 21, 2009, 7:44 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

What an odd topic.

I think 'hand on hackey' is a nutty complaint. If your real complaint is a premature toss, then that's the point to make. (and you make some very good points to that position - especially about the opening consistency in the cleaner air away from the plane - the other stuff is basic safety concerns, so it's nice to see a point on performance too)

I bet you a dollar that any given jump, I could put my hand on my boc while loading the plane, and then keep it there on the ride up, the walk to the door, the exit, and all the way to dumping. Sure, my "confidence in my ability" will suffer, but I'll live. (Challenge psychology like that only works on the real simpletons).



As a passenger, my issue is whether or not the jumper throws the PC too early (or even back into the plane). That is a real problem - I could not care less where their hand is on exit. Actually, I could care less, but not much.

As the CrW jumper, I clear and pull - no more, no less - my hand is whereever it might be on that jump - on the PC in the door, or not - doesn't matter.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on May 21, 2009, 7:46 AM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 21, 2009, 9:46 AM
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Re: [pirana] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just did a CRW camp, so only 5 jumps into it, but here is my take.

I found that by going out with hand on PC, My 3 second delay was EXACTLY 3 seconds. Not 3 1/4 seconds or 3 1/2 seconds because I maybe bumped it with the thumb. The 3 jumps with hand on pilot on exit I was perfectly on level; the first 2 without hand on pilot I was a bit low.

You are exactly the target of this discussion then. Now is the very time to establish good habits, before the bad one is established. What are you going to do if someone wants you to float an exit? How can you float and hold your hackey? And really, at your skill level, why is a quarter of a second so important?

The habit may be fine most of the time, but when the aircraft is different, the dive is challenging, the pilot is newer and likes to use more prop, maybe a seatbelt is under your foot and causes you to stumble, all these things combine to bring your deployment closer to the horizontal stabilizer. And you gain nothing. Speed to the formation is more a function of proper decisions and flying skills and less about getting gear over your head as fast as possible.

I didn't mean for this to be seen as a "gripe," but as a valuable piece of information that could save the lives of those you jump with and those still in the plane.

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(This post was edited by topdocker on May 21, 2009, 9:54 AM)


sprtdth  (D 4730)

May 21, 2009, 6:13 PM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Speed to the formation is more a function of proper decisions and flying skills and less about getting gear over your head as fast as possible.


Yup. In my opinion, pulling in clean air is more important than pulling as fast as you can. Especially when jumping a CASA or Skyvan when you need to take a delay to get out of the twin prop wash.

If that half second is that important, you should have made another dirt dive or two.


Baksteen  (C 708753)

May 22, 2009, 4:07 AM
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Re: [pirana] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm used to a hackey, but the CReW rig I jumped this weekend had one of those plastic whatsits.

On the second jump I missed the handle on the first attempt. This surprised me, resulting in a less than ideal body position and hence a few line twists after I did open but I simply hung out in brakes until my instructor could catch up with me.

I really don't see what the big deal is - the exercise was that I had to dock him from the 'ideal' setup point and we still managed that five times on this particular jump. Smile

For the record - my other exits were fine.Tongue


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 25, 2009, 6:53 PM
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Re: [rehmwa] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What an odd topic.

I think 'hand on hackey' is a nutty complaint. If your real complaint is a premature toss, then that's the point to make.

I'd have to agree with Bill here. However, and Bill can attest to this, we've seen pilot chutes being tossed back into the plane. That's where the real issue lies.

Whatever happened to "Arch thousand, Reach thousand, Pull thousand? Learn it, practice it, and get good at it. It's one of the skill sets every skydiver should have.

The idea that you need one hand on the hacky to pull stable and on time is a bit ridiculous. Seems to me having that hand flying would be much more efficient??

Now, if your argument is that by having your hand on the deployment device you're protecting the device from snagging or accidentally being deployed, then I would say O.K.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 25, 2009, 8:22 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'd have to agree with Bill here. However, and Bill can attest to this, we've seen pilot chutes being tossed back into the plane. That's where the real issue lies.
Than that should be the focus to start the thread.
In reply to:

The idea that you need one hand on the hacky to pull stable and on time is a bit ridiculous. Seems to me having that hand flying would be much more efficient??

The ridiculous part is suggesting that the hand isn't flying! Regardless of position of one hand the whole body is flying. I could fly a stable exit with both hands on the BOC.


(This post was edited by VectorBoy on May 25, 2009, 8:27 PM)


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 26, 2009, 8:15 AM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I could fly a stable exit with both hands on the BOC.

Stable exit is not the same as a good exit. I've seen plenty of jumpers stable and on their back on exit. What you need is consistent and facing the relative wind. By having your hand on your hackey on exit you limit your flying ability and your ability to control the exit from the aircraft. If the plane suddenly shifts, or bobs because a large load just left, your hand is on your butt instead of a door frame or wall.

Your method is fine given good conditions, but I've seen enough "not so good" conditions. Newer pilot, a little more prop on that side, lower tail because a sudden weight shift, high stress dive so you're a little amped. Boom, you stumble to the door, timing off, and out comes your pilot chute over the tail.

I've seen a very experienced crw jumper do this on a load in Eloy, managed to get his pilot chute over the tail of a DC-3. And of course, his was the first team out, there were 30+ people still in the plane ready to do a door jam! So, it's only a "nutty complaint" if you haven't seen it.

Maybe this should be about "premature deployments," but really by getting people to think about this whole topic, maybe we can avoid death, destruction, or crw being banned from a dz because somebody freaked out a pilot by bouncing a p/c off the horizontal.

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chuckbrown  (D 19538)

May 26, 2009, 8:49 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://crwphoto.smugmug.com/gallery/7667449_6S3jb#495001715_EUsdy

Here's a photo of a jumper leaving an Otter. The shot was taken from inside the Otter. He did NOT have his hand on the PC on exit. He was able to exit stable, grab the PC & deploy stable within 3 seconds.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

May 26, 2009, 9:02 AM
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Re: [topdocker] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maybe this should be about "premature deployments," but really by getting people to think about this whole topic, maybe we can avoid death, destruction, or crw being banned from a dz because somebody freaked out a pilot by bouncing a p/c off the horizontal.

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You are of course right, if the hand is free and away from the container there will be no premature deployments until clear of the aircraft. That solves that problem.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

May 26, 2009, 2:22 PM
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Re: [chuckbrown] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

 

try this...http://crwphoto.smugmug.com/...S3jb#495001715_EUsdy


topdocker  (D 12018)

May 26, 2009, 3:47 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Clear plane, then pull! [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that Feisty?

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