Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
fast landing

 

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47plymouth  (A 56444)

May 11, 2009, 7:36 PM
Post #1 of 28 (2931 views)
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fast landing Can't Post

ON little to no wind days I seem to come in fast enough that I always have to run it out. Is there any way I can get more of a glide before my feet touch the ground. my main is a safire 2 210 loaded 1 to 1


skyshimas  (D 29263)

May 11, 2009, 8:11 PM
Post #2 of 28 (2909 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean so you would not have to run it out or do you want to swoop it? To swoop 210 is extremely hard. If you time your flare better you should be able to bring it to the stop. try two stage flare maybe and don't put your feet down too early. Let it fly until there is no more flaring power left and always finish the flare.


Pulse  (D 16387)

May 12, 2009, 2:23 AM
Post #3 of 28 (2835 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

A parachute is a wing. No wing can fly without forward speed. The parachute will stop flying before coming to a complete stop in no wind.

The best you can do is to follow through with your flare and reach the slowest forward speed as possible without losing lift.




rhys  (D 95)

May 12, 2009, 4:42 AM
Post #5 of 28 (2808 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

It is all about the timing of your flare, I will avoid going into detail on the internet with a low timer as confusion can result and bad advice can be given accidentally.

Talk to a (well known, good) canopy coach, at your level you will gain greatly from doing so.

There is a fine line between progression and keeping safe. the later being more important.

Be safe, have fun!

Rhys


47plymouth  (A 56444)

May 12, 2009, 6:56 AM
Post #6 of 28 (2760 views)
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Re: [rhys] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

THANXS. I want to try the swooping in the near future but landing a little slower with out a 100yard dash is what I'm going for. thanks againSmile




Ronaldo  (D 34728)

May 12, 2009, 1:32 PM
Post #8 of 28 (2641 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Have someone to video your landings (at least a few of them) and show it to a experienced canopy pilot.
He may conclude that it is just a technique issue or even that you need to readjust your brake line length. If the brake lines are too long (or you have short arms) you may not be able to use maximum flare power.


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
May 12, 2009, 2:17 PM
Post #9 of 28 (2626 views)
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Re: [Ronaldo] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Most likely the issue is that the pilot is leaving the 'aggresive' ending of the flare too late, not leaving enough airspeed to provide the last bit of lift (or pop up) required to stop the ground speed.

It's impossible to say without video though, so to the OP - post a link to some vid, or if you can - grab a good canopy coach and have them watch your landings.

Blues,
Ian






47plymouth  (A 56444)

May 12, 2009, 7:24 PM
Post #12 of 28 (2547 views)
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Re: [ianmdrennan] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

thanks for all the advice I like the video part. at least I can see what I'm doing or somene can show me










AiRpollUtiOn  (D 42)

May 14, 2009, 12:15 AM
Post #17 of 28 (2315 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

The guys I coach usually have flare-energy issues on no wind days.
As Ian said they finish too late, and with too little energy.

Especially on a no wind day you want to get your canopy behind you. This way it wil work as a giant airbrake and kill the most speed.

If you have someone video your landings, try to get video from the side, this way you will see how far you get in front of your canopy and get the best info on what you should work on.


(This post was edited by AiRpollUtiOn on May 14, 2009, 12:15 AM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 14, 2009, 5:50 AM
Post #18 of 28 (2287 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

 
A problem that alot of new guys have on no wind days is they put their feet down too soon.

On a no wind day, you want to use a two stage flare. The first stage you flare just enough to fly level with the ground. The second stage is where you finish the flare, and this happens when your canopy is running out of steam flying level with the ground.

Either way, the first mistake is putting your feet down too soon. People want to put their feet down because they're close to the ground, but if your canopy is still flying, there's no reason to put your feet down. Let the canopy burn off a little speed before putting down your landing gear, so when you do touch down, you're not going as fast.

The other problem is not finishing the flare. Along with wanting to put their feet down too soon, newer jumpers seem to want to 'end' the landing too soon. Just like keeping your feet up until you slow down, you need to keep flying the canopy until you have finished the flare completely.

A note on finishing the flare, the slower your canopy is flying, the less effect your inputs will have. For this reason, it's important to finish the flare all the way, and make sure you use some 'authority' with your input at this stage. Make sure to fully flare the canopy, and finish it like you mean it.

A little bit of wind is helpful for two reasons. The first being the reduction in ground speed when you finish the flare. It makes it easy to manage your speed because even if you do things wrong, the wind means you're dealing with a lower ground speed, and it's no big deal.

The other is that when you have a little wind, your canopy has extra airpseed when you're finishing the flare. The extra airspeed equals more response to your input. Even if you don't get a good strong flare, the extra airspeed helps to make your weak flare more effective.

No wind landings are just another skill to learn. Getting to the DZ early and being on the first load helps because the winds are lower in the early morning, and you get to practice. Of course, staying all day and catching the sunset load is also another chance to practice as the wind generally tapers off toward sunset.

Just hang out and jump all day, that's the real solution to any skydiving problem.


Pendragon  (D 104102)

May 14, 2009, 8:21 AM
Post #19 of 28 (2252 views)
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Re: [davelepka] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A problem that alot of new guys have on no wind days is they put their feet down too soon.

I agree, but also many folks begin their flares slightly too late. Your canopy should have killed just about all forward speed with your feet just a few inches off the ground. Then when you put your feet down, you may only take a step.

With regard to two stage flares (not directed at the poster I'm replying to) - I'm not a skydiving instructor (although I fly hang and paragliders too), but I think this is a load of baloney the way it's often explained. If you flare in two stages; the first is surely just to take the slack out of the brake lines then the next input is the actual flare itself. Coming in on half-brakes for your final flare only serves to reduce the flare power you have available - and it is more dangerous to fly slower in turbulent conditions. If someone has a decent explanation otherwise, I'm all ears...


davelepka  (D 21448)

May 14, 2009, 8:50 AM
Post #20 of 28 (2243 views)
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Re: [Pendragon] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you flare in two stages; the first is surely just to take the slack out of the brake lines then the next input is the actual flare itself.

If you read my post, you'll see that I describe the first stage as not pulling the toggles to a certain location (shoulder height, chest height, etc.), I say that the first stage is flaring just enough to get the canopy flying level with the ground. This gives the canopy a chance to plane out, and kill off some of the speed it has from the final approach.

Once the canopy has slowed, and begins to 'settle' toward the ground, then the flare is completed to full toggle extension, in oder to eliminate as much remaining speed as possible, while keeping the jumper off the ground.

I'm not sure how you can describe this as baloney. This is the same technique I use for everyone of my swoops. I apply just enough input to level the canopy, and fly out the speed I have from my final approach. As the speed decreases, and the canopy cannot maintain level flight, I'll add input to keep the canopy flying, and furhter reduce my speed so I can safely put my feet down.

Granted, I'm going fast as hell, and the manuver is extended with the various stages taking considerable time each, but the concept still applies to larger, slower canopies. The time between stage one and two might only be a second or two, more of just a pause, but the two stages are there, and this remains the correct way to land a ZP square canopy.

As I stated before, this technique applies to every landing, not just no-wind days. Having a little wind (with a larger canopy) provides enough of a cushion that jumpers can get away with being sloppy in their landings, but these bad habits show through when the wind dies.


tetra316  (D 26945)

May 14, 2009, 8:58 AM
Post #21 of 28 (2240 views)
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Re: [Pendragon] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
A problem that alot of new guys have on no wind days is they put their feet down too soon.

Coming in on half-brakes for your final flare only serves to reduce the flare power you have available -

It is not coming in for your final flare with half brakes. The way you say it makes it sounds like the first half of the flare begins way early. Not true. You begin your flare at the same point regardless of using a one stroke or two stroke flare. It's just on a no wind day you will fly further over the ground once you begin the flare due to no wind resistance. So instead of flaring all the way straight down, right away, flare only halfway to 2/3 of the way and then hold it there as your canopy continues to fly. If you time this correctly you will be flying horizontally without any vertical loss. Once the canopy starts to lose that lift or feels like it is starting again on a vertical descent then you simply finish your flare bringing the canopy once again to horizontal flight while the remaining speed is bled off before putting your feet down. In this way you are bleeding off as much forward speed of the canopy as possible before touching down which can result in a tip toe landing even on a no wind day.

At least this is how I understand it and try to doWink


(This post was edited by tetra316 on May 14, 2009, 9:00 AM)


txlottowinner  (A 51146)

May 19, 2009, 7:59 AM
Post #22 of 28 (2032 views)
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Re: [tetra316] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Get some video and coaching ! One thing you can do and most all of us will agree is to visualize it and practice it on clear and pulls. Pretty vague but more practice and you knowing your canopy will solve this. just take some time and get a game plan (stall points, horizontal distances covered, sweet spots etc) and go up and enjoy a birds eye view and get to know what your flying. Never had a canopy flight I didn't enjoy.


BDashe  (A 60255)

May 21, 2009, 11:23 AM
Post #23 of 28 (1895 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is a pic of me on a safire2 159 loaded @ 1.5 on an almost no wind day (canopy is for sale to anyone interested!!! Wink). I am now on my third safire (a 149), you really have to be sure you finish the flare on these canopies.

This pic was a straight in landing, little wind, couple steps to come to a stop, nothing too extreme. note how low my hands are to finish out the flare on the canopy.

Cool canopies to learn to swoop on too Smile

edit- so yeah, get someone to video or shoot stills or both of a couple landings and see how you shut the canopy down Smile


(This post was edited by BDashe on May 21, 2009, 11:28 AM)
Attachments: IMG_1408.JPG (120 KB)


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

May 21, 2009, 12:21 PM
Post #24 of 28 (1881 views)
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Re: [47plymouth] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

At Perris I had many opportunities to land a few one-step-forward or zero-step-forward zero-winders (basically, shutting down my canopy fully enough during zero-wind or near zero-wind). It helps that I was flying a Sabre 170 and it has just been freshly relined. I also flew a Pilot 150, which actually seemed tamer than my Sabre 170 (probably because a new 150 feels bigger than a 600-jump 170 that has lost some of it zero-porosity-ness)

It's usually a very normal dynamic flare (two stage), but with a sudden sharper than usual stab (from 2/3 brake position to full brake position) one or two second before my canopy would have touched down.

This is what many people call the "finishing the flare" thing --
Normally if I am still flying at full speed (i.e. there's lots of energy), doing a sharp stab of the brakes can be dangerous because it cause me to pop up massively, but I'm doing it when the flare is already weakened, most of my way through a landing - 1 or 2 seconds before the canopy would normally force me to touch down, I give a quick/fast stab (sometimes thrusting my brakes down as hard as I can, from 2/3 brake position to full brake position, 1 or 2 seconds before touchdown) at the end to "shut it down", it suddenly changes the angle of attack to turn the canopy into a giant airbrake, stopping my forward motion, while giving enough of a weak pop-up effect to only move me upwards a few inches. This, I only do during zero-wind situations, to mostly eliminate a zero-wind run-out.

It may be a matter of tuning the timing of the flare shutdown, based on wind conditions...
Do the flare shutdown too early, it gives you a huge pop-up that makes things a little exciting.
Do the flare shutdown too late, it does nearly squat.

Some people even call this a three stage flare, but I prefer "dynamic flare". First stage is flare to plane out, second stage is to maintain planeout, third stage is flare shutdown. Often for one canopy in one wind condition, this often looks like a medium-speed stroke from 0 to 1/3 brake (level-out start), slow stroke from 1/3 to 2/3 brake (level-out maintain), then fast sudden punch-stroke from 2/3 brake to full brake position (shutdown) -- Often all the steps are blended into two stages, to keep it simple for skydiving students -- this is sufficiently good enough for you to land safely at your current level, even if not always optimally. Sometimes other instructors just call it "dynamic flare" because two stage is a little fuzzy of a definition.

I did misjudge the approach once thinking I could fully zero my horizontal, and got some dirt on my jumpsuit trying to stand up a zero winder instead of running it out. So I still always have to be prepared to run it out. Forunately, the Perris dirt has been pretty soft, having been recently tilled.

It also helps me land downwind landings (up to 10mph) without tumbling -- most of my recent downwinders have been successful runouts... (a zero-step zero winder means you have enough room to run out a downwinder, for winds up to the speed of your running abilities)

Most people at your level aren't yet familiar with this flare shutdown trick, so don't worry if you don't already know this stuff -- it'll eventually come to you...

That said, at your jump numbers, don't try anything I say -- it could inadvertently be dangerous -- get an instructor or canopy coach to teach you the magic of shutting down a canopy on cue (the "flare shutdown" stab at the end of a flare).


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on May 21, 2009, 12:39 PM)


taylor.freefall  (A 52570)

May 22, 2009, 4:44 PM
Post #25 of 28 (1795 views)
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Re: [mdrejhon] fast landing [In reply to] Can't Post

Are canopies "supposed" to pop up when flaring hard? No matter how hard I flare my canopy it never does this. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
Edit to add, 230 @ around 1:1 WL.


(This post was edited by taylor.freefall on May 22, 2009, 4:45 PM)


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