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Vigil???

 

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blueskiesbill  (B 30169)

May 3, 2009, 10:15 AM
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Vigil??? Can't Post

Looking into getting a new AAD, and do not feel like spending the fortune on the cypres, which as we all know does not end after purchase....so i checked out the vigil and it is cheaper, lasts longer and does not need maintenance....

what worries me is that i am trying to save money on a tool that could save my life in that unforseen circumstance of mid air collision ... i am not looking to start the AAD or no AAD conversation on this post but what i am looking for is : is the vigil an inferior, superior or similar product to the Cypres? and i have done no research in it but the argus too. any info???


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

May 3, 2009, 10:41 AM
Post #2 of 72 (3445 views)
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Re: [blueskiesbill] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

try this:

http://www.chutingstar.com/archives/00000128.html


airtwardo  (D License)

May 3, 2009, 11:03 AM
Post #3 of 72 (3428 views)
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Re: [blueskiesbill] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Try taking the batteries out and putting them back in...


blueskiesbill  (B 30169)

May 3, 2009, 1:28 PM
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Re: [GLIDEANGLE] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post


thanx much

blue skies!!!


erdnarob  (D 364)

May 3, 2009, 2:10 PM
Post #5 of 72 (3334 views)
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Re: [blueskiesbill] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you have well read and compared the Vigil and the Cypres web sites, you can see that the Vigil II is a superior product. People who will tell you that they prefer the Cypres are a bit like people who tell you they prefer their old slippers because they make them more confortable. When dealing with new technologies it is another story, would you buy a new TV set designed 7 years ago. Certainly not. In that sense, the Vigil II is the most advanced AAD because of the features it has and the reliability it offers. I have had the Vigil I and now I have the Vigil II and always, Vigil I or II has worked properly when needed and testing I did in all kind of situations. For the maintenance, you can send back your Vigil for inspection any time you chose. When you switch on the Vigil, it tells you on the display window what it is checking and if the test is OK or not and that in clear language. The Pro mode if chosen stays on the display continuously. Now the Vigil II unit is made of cast aluminum, with a waterproof filter that you don't have to change if wet (just let it dry by hanging the unit filter down), the cables are Kevlar reinforced unlike other AADs.
Now some people on this forum will say that I have a preference for Vigil. Sure I have just like I have a preference for a mechanical watch/chronographer chosen by the NASA for the Astronauts ie. the Omega Speedmaster Professional. No wonder it is the watch I have chosen.


pilotdave  (D License)

May 3, 2009, 6:58 PM
Post #6 of 72 (3257 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Vigil I or II has worked properly when needed...

And even when not needed! That's bonus! Smile

Sorry for taking your quote out of context. I have nothing against the vigil 2, but i wonder if you would have said all those nice things about the vigil 1 before its serious flaws were fixed by the introduction of the vigil 2?

Dave


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 3, 2009, 7:38 PM
Post #7 of 72 (3232 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

> People who will tell you that they prefer the Cypres are a bit like people
> who tell you they prefer their old slippers because they make them more
> confortable.

Personally I prefer Cypres II's to Vigil's because they don't misfire in pressurizable aircraft. It's a bummer to have a reserve open in the plane. For many jumpers, though, that's not an issue, and a Vigil (or Argus) is a good replacement for a Cypres.

>the Vigil II is the most advanced AAD because of the features it has . . .

It does indeed have far more features than the cypres. I prefer an AAD that does only one job very well, though.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 3, 2009, 8:54 PM
Post #8 of 72 (3210 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

So, are the Vigil II's popping when people drive down hills or slam car doors? Vigil I's seemed to be superior to other brands in such "features".

Not knocking the Vigil II; I honestly don't happen to know the answer.


jimthefireman  (D 110)

May 3, 2009, 10:45 PM
Post #9 of 72 (3181 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

They say "good decisions come from experience, and experience comes from bad decisions...". As a 30 year skydiver and a 37 year firefighter I have seen a bit here and there and amassed my share of "experience" too.
Another quote I like is that "Some can be told, some can learn from watching others, but there is always the guy who has to pee on the electric fence himself to understand...". There is no doubt in my mind that Cypres having a time proven product gives it an edge in proven reliability, but the other products mentioned have also been tested and proven to a significant degree. I do not believe it is either "reckless" or "essential" to choose any of them and despair of those who pay microscopic attention to detail in one aspect of their safety, while ignoring other significant dangers in their lives.
Far more skydivers will be killed and injured through foolish actions (usually with a fair measure of plain bad luck) than will ever be killed through AAD failure.
Cypres ushered in the age of the thoroughly reliable AAD. Whether they need to be quite as picky with their batteries, service standards and life of components, only time will tell one way or another. Like the earlier comment, I would happily jump with any of them, or none at all (on my own) but if I won the lottery, for now, I would buy a Cypres 2.


piisfish

May 4, 2009, 12:28 AM
Post #10 of 72 (3165 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So, are the Vigil II's popping when people drive down hills
yes Unimpressed


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 4, 2009, 3:43 AM
Post #11 of 72 (3140 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
So, are the Vigil II's popping when people drive down hills
yes Unimpressed
Makes we wonder if those people even realize that you can turn the dang thing off when not in use. Common sense is a lost art.


piisfish

May 4, 2009, 3:54 AM
Post #12 of 72 (3137 views)
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Re: [popsjumper] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

over here, you can easily land below intended landing altitude. The only way to avoid Vigil fire in that case is to have it turned off.

In the case of driving it lower to landing altitude...
IIRC It's written in the Vigil manual that you shoudl turn it off when you put it in a vehicle (to avoid fires in case of door slam etc.. Fair enough...
Now, we had the case of several Vigils, in the same vehicle, who was driving down a hill, and only 1 of them fired. I would feel OK if all of them had fired.


humanflite  (D 99999)

May 4, 2009, 4:17 AM
Post #13 of 72 (3129 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
over here, you can easily land below intended landing altitude. The only way to avoid Vigil fire in that case is to have it turned off.

In the case of driving it lower to landing altitude...
IIRC It's written in the Vigil manual that you shoudl turn it off when you put it in a vehicle (to avoid fires in case of door slam etc.. Fair enough...
Now, we had the case of several Vigils, in the same vehicle, who was driving down a hill, and only 1 of them fired. I would feel OK if all of them had fired.

Thats strange that they didnt all fire. Were they all being used at the same DZ (elevation)?

I wonder if air pressure differential had anything to do with it,...I would doubt it in the car but who knows


tdog  (D 28800)

May 4, 2009, 5:54 AM
Post #14 of 72 (3097 views)
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Re: [piisfish] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
over here, you can easily land below intended landing altitude. The only way to avoid Vigil fire in that case is to have it turned off.

Can you give me a link to the incident report where someone landed under a normal canopy and the device fired? I am confused?


skydiverton2  (D License)

May 4, 2009, 6:01 AM
Post #15 of 72 (3089 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you have well read and compared the Vigil and the Cypres web sites, you can see that the Vigil II is a superior product. People who will tell you that they prefer the Cypres are a bit like people who tell you they prefer their old slippers because they make them more confortable. When dealing with new technologies it is another story, would you buy a new TV set designed 7 years ago. Certainly not. In that sense, the Vigil II is the most advanced AAD because of the features it has and the reliability it offers. I have had the Vigil I and now I have the Vigil II and always, Vigil I or II has worked properly when needed and testing I did in all kind of situations. For the maintenance, you can send back your Vigil for inspection any time you chose. When you switch on the Vigil, it tells you on the display window what it is checking and if the test is OK or not and that in clear language. The Pro mode if chosen stays on the display continuously. Now the Vigil II unit is made of cast aluminum, with a waterproof filter that you don't have to change if wet (just let it dry by hanging the unit filter down), the cables are Kevlar reinforced unlike other AADs.
Now some people on this forum will say that I have a preference for Vigil. Sure I have just like I have a preference for a mechanical watch/chronographer chosen by the NASA for the Astronauts ie. the Omega Speedmaster Professional. No wonder it is the watch I have chosen.

What does a watch have to do with an AAD??? I do not see the link.
Oh yes I prefer the Cypres2 as the way they are doing business is the normal way of working in aerospace industry for safety critical applications. Oh yes I'm an aerospace engineer responsible for safety critical components!


tdog  (D 28800)

May 4, 2009, 6:16 AM
Post #16 of 72 (3076 views)
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Re: [blueskiesbill] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Blueskiesbill,

I am happy with my Vigil 2. I have a lot of customers happy with their Vigil 2.

I am happy with my Cypres II. I have a lot of customers happy with their Cypres II.

However, my friend who was going to borrow my Cypres rig this weekend had to rent instead because I am still waiting for my Cypres to get it's 4 year done. Annoying.

I think you could buy whichever one you like and not have any issues.

I know BillVon mentioned pressurized aircraft. Three notes - 1, there are very few skydivers who ever will do that. 2, I think Vigil stepped up to the plate and helped everyone out.

AND

3. If I understand correctly, the only reason why Cypres did not fire is because they have a minimum altitude programmed in their brain of somewhere around 100 feet. Cypres are not magical, they just had a programming variable that happened to work to their advantage, in an unintended way, when subjected to human error outside of the documented operating conditions.


Now - I did attend a seminar at PIA hosted by Airtec (Cypres). It was clear it was an aggressive marketing move to justify the 4 year check and 12 year retirement. In all the propaganda they showed two things caught my eye as stuff I should pay attention to:

1) Xrays of joints on the printed circuit boards. It is clear with age these things corrode, erode, and crack. Microscopic cracks can cause errors or worse, and I know enough about electronics to know no error check at start up can catch every potential error.

2) Videos of cypres cutters of different ages were shown cutting closing loops. There was a loop that was not cut by a retired cypres cutter (although in my mind I thought, "that loop has less tension that the other videos", and someone even raised their hand asking the same question noticing the same thing - Airtec claimed the tests were under the same parameters).

So between the fact no one can build a fool proof circuit board and that at least the Cypres brand cutters clearly lose strength after 12 years per the charts, graphs and videos shown at PIA.... I probably will retire my vigil 2 before 20 years.

But the way I look at it... Even retired at 12 years, the cost was right, and after watching them for 4 years in the field - including a save - I have enough trust in either brand.


(This post was edited by tdog on May 4, 2009, 6:20 AM)


blueskiesbill  (B 30169)

May 4, 2009, 6:39 AM
Post #17 of 72 (3064 views)
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Re: [tdog] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow!!!!

thank you for all your replies!!!!

i feel like this is a case of the glass is half full --- no its not its half empty....

so i def thank all of you for your comments....i think mostly what i wanted to know (and had answered) is if i spend less money am i getting less of a product...

I like the vigil because i will always get checks on a device like this but alteast with the vigil i dont have to worry about the possibility of the check conflicting with a weekend where i would like to be jumping...

and of course the price

once again thank you for all the links, comments, opinions, thoughts, etc. they were all very helpful in my safety/financial decision

blue skies to all!!!!

billy


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
May 4, 2009, 10:37 AM
Post #18 of 72 (2996 views)
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Re: [tdog] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

>the only reason why Cypres did not fire is because they have a minimum
>altitude programmed in their brain of somewhere around 100 feet.

Well, the aircraft was rapidly pressurized to below 0 feet (i.e. higher pressure than sealevel) so the effective descent was to well below 100 feet. In other words, all the AAD's passed through their firing pressure at a rapid (false) descent speed. From my talking to Airtec/SSK people, the issues are:

The Cypres 1 has a series of tests that basically look for physically impossible things happening. If the altitude sensor detects an acceleration towards the ground greater than 1G, or detects a descent at impossible speeds (i.e. 800mph) then it shuts down and assumes that it is broken; it must be tested and reset by Airtec before it can be used again. It does not fire.

The Cypres 2 has a more sophisticated series of tests that look for the same things but can also tell the difference between a failure and pressure that's increasing too fast. In that case it does not fire, it shuts down, and it can be turned back on by the user after landing.

The Vigil does not do such checks, and simply fires if it sees a high rate of descent at its firing atltitude - whether that descent profile is possible or not. So if it sees a sudden pressurization, whether from being in a pressurized aircraft or in a trunk that's slammed, it may fire.

When I spoke to Jo Smolders at a recent PIA convention, he said that the Vigil II would not include the logic to detect pressurization or other "impossible" pressure-altitude events, but the Vigil III might (although it probably won't be called that.)


councilman24  (D 8631)

May 4, 2009, 1:52 PM
Post #19 of 72 (2890 views)
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Re: [blueskiesbill] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

There are reasons, other than cost, life limit, maintainence that I haven't yet considered Vigil. Their early business practices and presentations left less than impressed. Their are things I didn't like about Airtec's early practices either but they seemed to have a reasonable reasons for them.

This is based on direct observation, not someone else's accusations.


erdnarob  (D 364)

May 4, 2009, 10:09 PM
Post #20 of 72 (2815 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

* If one reads an AAD owner's manual, manufacturers are warning that you don't travel in a mountain area with an AAD switched on. Because it's a pressure sensitive device.
* Vigil is armed soon after the take off (150 ft) while the Cypres is armed at 1700 ft. We can see the different approach of two manufacturers here. You cannot get the butter and the butter money. You have a choice. What are the chances? Jumping from a pressurised airplane or bailing out in an emergency at an altitude less than 1700 ft.
In the first case, your Vigil can fire; in the second case your Cypres will not fire if needed. Which one do you prefer ? Having a Vigil and deplore the fact you cannot jump and have your reserve to be repacked or having a Cypres unarmed and maybe not making it in the second case. I choose the first case, it's a bummer but I am still alive. It happened to me in the DC9 at Rantoul. Are you with me this time ?
Now, the Vigil III is coming and the possibility of firing problems near the ground will be solved plus we will see some surprising new features.
* the watch is related to the Vigil in the sense that I bought both of them after getting a solid information, not because somebody subjectively told me his preference. As I mentioned in this forum, I have been a quality control technologist for Bombardier (Dash8, Learjet, Challenger business jet, Skyvan, snowmobile, subway trains, high speed trains...) and I would say that I can make up my mind based on my experience. And this is why I have chosen the Vigil. I have no regret for the choice made and now based on how the Vigil I and II have worked twice for me, as designed, I still can say, it is a superior product. I even used my Vigil interface and sofware to get the data and made a graph of some particular jumps. Nobody else tops that.


bofh  (D 13995)

May 5, 2009, 1:38 AM
Post #21 of 72 (2773 views)
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Re: [blueskiesbill] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like the vigil because i will always get checks on a device like this but alteast with the vigil i dont have to worry about the possibility of the check conflicting with a weekend where i would like to be jumping...

One does not have to send the cypres II away for maintenance at exactly four years. The maintenance period is four years plus/minus six months, so one can send it in for service when it is convenient. One can also watch when the next maintenance date is in the display during startup.

Since the batteries does not have to be changed between maintenance, there is even less risk of it interfering with ones jumping.


bofh  (D 13995)

May 5, 2009, 2:54 AM
Post #22 of 72 (2761 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
* Vigil is armed soon after the take off (150 ft) while the Cypres is armed at 1700 ft. We can see the different approach of two manufacturers here. You cannot get the butter and the butter money. You have a choice. What are the chances? Jumping from a pressurised airplane or bailing out in an emergency at an altitude less than 1700 ft.

In the first case, your Vigil can fire; in the second case your Cypres will not fire if needed. Which one do you prefer ?

Its a matter of how common each scenario is and from there one can draw a conclusion.

There are three possible scenarios:
* The skydiver does not pull after exiting below 1700 feet.
* The skydiver does deploy the reserve after exiting below 1700 feet.
* The skydiver does deploy the main after exiting below 1700 feet.

In the first scenario the jumper will die with a cypres and probably survive with a Vigil. In this case it is better to have a Vigil.

In the second scenario, the jumper will have an equal chance with both AADs.

With the third scenario the jumper may survive with a cypres and she may have a two-out scenario with the Vigil (which in turn might lead to a fatality). Of course not all two-outs will cause a fatality, most will not and I doubt the Vigil will fire in most cases while the main is opening, but in this case it is better to have a Cypres.

I have no statistics to back this up, but I believe that the third scenario is more likely for me than the first based on what I've seen people do during emergency exits.

In reply to:
Having a Vigil and deplore the fact you cannot jump and have your reserve to be repacked or having a Cypres unarmed and maybe not making it in the second case.

This is probably different in different parts of the world, but my training say that I should deploy the reserve if I exit the plane at 1700 feet.

In reply to:
Now, the Vigil III is coming and the possibility of firing problems near the ground will be solved plus we will see some surprising new features.

And the Cypres III will pack your main after each jump while you walk to the plane for the next load. Tongue

In what way does the Vigil II become better because of whatever features the Vigil III has?

In reply to:
* the watch is related to the Vigil in the sense that I bought both of them after getting a solid information, not because somebody subjectively told me his preference.

Because NASA bought the same product as you, to use in the space program, you feel you have got solid information? You don't think that your requirements and NASA's might be a bit different? In any case I don't see how this strengthens your arguments.

In reply to:
And this is why I have chosen the Vigil. I have no regret for the choice made and now based on how the Vigil I and II have worked twice for me, as designed, I still can say, it is a superior product. I even used my Vigil interface and sofware to get the data and made a graph of some particular jumps. Nobody else tops that.

The Alti-Track, Neptune and ProTrack all provides that. I often jump with a GPS logger so I get that information there as well. Hardly a feature that is needed in an AAD and one can even argue that the less features there are, the less things can go wrong with it.


I'm sure Vigil II and Cypres II are both fine products. In Sweden the Vigil would still need service as often as the cypres and the cost of its service would be higher, so in the end the price would be about the same. Since Airtec has the most experience in this field, I chose them.
When hearing that Vigils could go off on the ground if one forgot to turn them off before putting them in the car, I'm glad I did go with a cypres II because I often forget to turn off things.


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 5, 2009, 5:48 AM
Post #23 of 72 (2694 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
* If one reads an AAD owner's manual, manufacturers are warning that you don't travel in a mountain area with an AAD switched on. Because it's a pressure sensitive device.

Actually I can't find any similar statement in newer or older Cypres 2 manuals.

The Vigil II, however, does have a warning about travelling in closed vehicles - although it states that this is because it is the most accurate AAD and arms itself after a change of only 150 ft.

Some will say that's 'too sensitive', other will say it is 'better sensitivity'...

The other points you made look fine.


FreeflyIndian  (B 2699)

May 5, 2009, 6:31 AM
Post #24 of 72 (2673 views)
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Re: [bofh] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In Sweden the Vigil would still need service as often as the cypres

Why would a vigil need a service as often as the Cypres in Sweden?


tdog  (D 28800)

May 5, 2009, 6:32 AM
Post #25 of 72 (2670 views)
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Re: [bofh] Vigil??? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
One does not have to send the cypres II away for maintenance at exactly four years. The maintenance period is four years plus/minus six months, so one can send it in for service when it is convenient.

Two comments. 1st, this was my first time I needed to send in one of MY cypres units in... And, even with winter here, there was no "good time". Winter boogies + AFF instruction + having fun year around, taking something out of service sucks... My friend had to rent instead of borrowing my rig and night jumps this next weekend - I wanted my bigger rig with a forgiving canopy for wingsuiting, so I have to move my Vigil from a perfectly packed rig. I am a rigger, most customers don't have that luxury.

But I agree - I rather have something that works and is out of service every 4 years than something that does not work.... The reason why I purchased a Vigil is not solely determined by maintenance.


Second comment. Your stats are wrong. I copied and pasted this out of the manual - in reference to your +- 6 month comment, it's really 3 months. Granted you always can send it in late, but you can't jump it late. You can't send it in early, they won't work on it:

Maintenance ................................. 4 and 8 years from date of manufacture 3 months
Total lifetime .......................... 12 years from date of manufacture + 3 months maximum


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