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Type of main canopy you fly?

 

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Poll: Type of main canopy you fly?
Rectangular 45 / 18%
Semi-Elliptical 97 / 38%
Fully-Elliptical 86 / 34%
Cross-Braced 24 / 10%
252 total votes
 
rmsmith

Jan 18, 2003, 2:17 PM
Post #1 of 62 (3194 views)
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Type of main canopy you fly? Can't Post

What's the money being spent on today?


aufreefly  (A 35174)

Jan 18, 2003, 4:20 PM
Post #2 of 62 (3100 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

xaos 120... though it has been a few months

I used to jump cobalts but after jumping both I decided that the xaos was MUCH softer opening.


JFC3  (C 31790)

Jan 18, 2003, 5:28 PM
Post #3 of 62 (3064 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Now I may be wrong, but there are no "fully" eliptical canopies. They're all tapered to one degree or another.


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Jan 18, 2003, 5:33 PM
Post #4 of 62 (3062 views)
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Re: [JFC3] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, cobalt, samurai's etc are taped on trailing and leading edges. But then the stiletto is only tapred on the leading edge, and that's considered fully elip. Crazy


Kirils  (D License)

Jan 18, 2003, 7:22 PM
Post #5 of 62 (3027 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm junking my Stiletto, and buying a new Hornet.
I will then dedicate my jumps to the Hornet and the Xaos. It's the best 2 canopy combo I can think of.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 18, 2003, 7:33 PM
Post #6 of 62 (3021 views)
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Re: [JFC3] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now I may be wrong, but there are no "fully" eliptical canopies. They're all tapered to one degree or another.

Right, canopies are actually tapered. The Stiletoo is tapered on the leading and trailing edge, making it considered an elliptical.

Hook


Jimbo  (D License)

Jan 18, 2003, 7:53 PM
Post #7 of 62 (3011 views)
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Re: [JFC3] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
Now I may be wrong, but there are no "fully" eliptical canopies. They're all tapered to one degree or another.

This is something that the old-timers can speak to, but wasn't there a fully elliptical canopy a number of years ago? I seem to remember someone talking about a canopy that came to a point at both ends.


-
Jim


Kris  (D 26033)

Jan 19, 2003, 10:07 PM
Post #8 of 62 (2837 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

I currently jump a Stiletto but will probably be looking to purchase a Crossfire2 or a Vengeance later this summer when I'm ready for my next downsize.

Kris


SickMonkey  (D 23286)

Jan 19, 2003, 10:36 PM
Post #9 of 62 (2831 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Velocity 90....good times!!!!


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 19, 2003, 11:29 PM
Post #10 of 62 (2817 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

extreme vx 85 is what i fly

later


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 20, 2003, 11:31 AM
Post #11 of 62 (2701 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMonkey] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But then the stiletto is only tapred on the leading

Huh?


Unutsch

Jan 20, 2003, 1:50 PM
Post #12 of 62 (2648 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ace 100 by AtAir Aerodynamics

LUV IT!!!!!

ehm, has anyone a small amount of spare money and is willing to donate it to me??? i'm some 1400 short for buying an Impulse 105 Tongue


SkydiveMonkey  (B 102345)

Jan 20, 2003, 4:54 PM
Post #13 of 62 (2592 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The Stiletto is tapered on the leading and trailing edge
I thought the stiletto was only tapered on the leading edge (outer 3 cells on each side)?Crazy


(This post was edited by SkydiveMonkey on Jan 20, 2003, 4:55 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 20, 2003, 5:40 PM
Post #14 of 62 (2569 views)
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Re: [SkydiveMonkey] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I thought the stiletto was only tapered on the leading edge (outer 3 cells on each side)?

From PD's web site:

"Since its release, the Stiletto has become the most sought after high performance "elliptical" nine cell canopy in the world... "

It is "tapered" on the leading and trailing edges, outer 3 cells.

Hook


cobaltdan  (D License)

Jan 20, 2003, 6:42 PM
Post #15 of 62 (2555 views)
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Re: [rmsmith] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

i hate these type of threads.

the degree of taper is only 1 variable of many that determines if a canopy is a student canopy or pocket rocket.

there are beginner canopies with more taper than some extreme canopies !

thinking of the 'degree of ellipticalness' or terms like tapered, semi-tapered, or semi-elliptical is technically incorrect in this context and simply misleading. these terms are simply marketing jargon to describe performance at a given wing loading for a target consumer. all born by manufacturers catering to a general consumer ignorance.

put up a poll for canopy type and wingloading. it would be more informative.


sincerely,

dan<><>

ps. there is no such thing as fully elliptical in a skydiving wing.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 20, 2003, 7:12 PM
Post #16 of 62 (2544 views)
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Re: [cobaltdan] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
there are beginner canopies with more taper than some extreme canopies !

Like what....?

_Am


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 20, 2003, 7:33 PM
Post #17 of 62 (2534 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Im guessing Sabre2 has more taper then an FX.


skygod7777  (D 24081)

Jan 20, 2003, 7:36 PM
Post #18 of 62 (2529 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Im guessing Sabre2 has more taper then an FX.

more than likely, but i have never scene a sabre 2 up close, or flying in the air (at leas that i know of) and more than the vx, xaos's, and velocity's. and i can't speak for the onyx, or the crossbraced airlocked, but when i say the crossbraces airlocked, it looked a lot like the fx's, vx's, xaos's, and velocity's.

later


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 20, 2003, 7:47 PM
Post #19 of 62 (2523 views)
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Re: [cobaltdan] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
thinking of the 'degree of ellipticalness' or terms like tapered, semi-tapered, or semi-elliptical is technically incorrect in this context and simply misleading. these terms are simply marketing jargon to describe performance at a given wing loading for a target consumer. all born by manufacturers catering to a general consumer ignorance.

Plan-form shape is one consideration of a canopies performance. The terms square, semi-elliptical (really tapered on the trailing edge), and elliptical (really tapered on the leading and trailing edges) allow skydivers to break canopies down into three categories of performance. True, there are beginner-class canopies w/ more taper than some high performance canopies, but there aren't any elliptical beginner-class canopies, nor are there any beginner-class canopies that out-perform the high performance elliptical canopies. Generally as the canopy plan-form goes from square to semi-elliptical, to fully elliptical (marketing terms, but widely recognized) the turn rate and performance characteristics of the canopies increase. There are exceptions to every rule, but I cant think of a single square canopy that will out-perform an elliptical canopy, all other things being equal (wing loading, size, pilot, material, etc).

Breaking down canopies into different classes by square, semi-elliptical, elliptical, and cross-braced doesn't seem like that bad of an idea, given the lack of an alternate idea and serves as a pretty good guide to a canopy's characteristics.

Hook


cobaltdan  (D License)

Jan 21, 2003, 6:54 AM
Post #20 of 62 (2476 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

hey hook,

"True, there are beginner-class canopies w/ more taper than some high performance canopies, but there aren't any elliptical beginner-class canopies,"


there are: i.e. alpha vs space: market conception is that the alpha is an fully elliptical swoop machine while the space is a semi-tapered begineers canopy. the two canopies are 100% identical they have the same planform(btw also identical planform to the cobalt and onyx). . so at light loadings if particular canopy design performs docile and is ideal for beginers it is called tapered or semi, at high wing loadings with more agressive performance it is called fully elliptical, even though it is the same planform.

i am trying to educate that planform does not dictate performance level. it is only 1 variable of many that determines the performance level of a canopy design.

so yes our student canopy is considerably more elliptical than many canopies you will see in swoop competitions.

breaking things down into these marketing terms is definately misleading and acceptance of such limits the amount of information available to the consumer from manufacturers. most manufactureres will simply tell you what you want to hear to make a purchase.

"Breaking down canopies into different classes by square, semi-elliptical, elliptical, and cross-braced doesn't seem like that bad of an idea, given the lack of an alternate idea and serves as a pretty good guide to a canopy's characteristics."

exactly my point in that it is not a pretty good guide.
better is to simply view a chart of a canopy's perfromance vs wing loading.

when it comes to modern canopies you are no longer a parachutist, you are a pilot. i would like to see jumpers be far more educated about the wings they pilot.

sincerely,

dan<><>


amir1967  (B License)

Jan 21, 2003, 12:49 PM
Post #21 of 62 (2425 views)
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Re: [cobaltdan] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

So would you say that stiletto will be a good beginners canopy when loaded at 1 or 1.1 to1.
or is only atair cobalt can use this comparison


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 21, 2003, 1:13 PM
Post #22 of 62 (2406 views)
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Re: [cobaltdan] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
"True, there are beginner-class canopies w/ more taper than some high performance canopies, but there aren't any elliptical beginner-class canopies,"


there are: i.e. alpha vs space: market conception is that the alpha is an fully elliptical swoop machine while the space is a semi-tapered begineers canopy. the two canopies are 100% identical they have the same planform(btw also identical planform to the cobalt and onyx). . so at light loadings if particular canopy design performs docile and is ideal for beginers it is called tapered or semi, at high wing loadings with more agressive performance it is called fully elliptical, even though it is the same planform.


i am trying to educate that planform does not dictate performance level. it is only 1 variable of many that determines the performance level of a canopy design.

so yes our student canopy is considerably more elliptical than many canopies you will see in swoop competitions.

breaking things down into these marketing terms is definately misleading and acceptance of such limits the amount of information available to the consumer from manufacturers. most manufactureres will simply tell you what you want to hear to make a purchase.

"Breaking down canopies into different classes by square, semi-elliptical, elliptical, and cross-braced doesn't seem like that bad of an idea, given the lack of an alternate idea and serves as a pretty good guide to a canopy's characteristics."

exactly my point in that it is not a pretty good guide.
better is to simply view a chart of a canopy's perfromance vs wing loading.

when it comes to modern canopies you are no longer a parachutist, you are a pilot. i would like to see jumpers be far more educated about the wings they pilot.

sincerely,

dan<><>

A few questions:

At what wing loading is a Cobalt "ideal" for beginners, and how many skydives (range) do you define "beginner" as?

Your student canopy, do you mean the Cobalt?

How do you define performance? Max speed? Max turn rate? Glide ratio? Altitude lost in a 360-degree turn?

Do you dis-agree that an elliptical (tapered) [even Atair uses the term elliptical, even though we all know canopies are really tapered, it is a term that is recognized by everyone and understood, like Zerox], canopy will have better performance than a square (rectangular) [another skydiving term, square canopies are really rectangular], all other things being equal?

Does Atair have a chart showing performance vs. wing loading for the Cobalt?

It seems to me a un-bias company would have to do the tests for each and every canopy, using expensive test equipment and a hundred jumps or so per canopy for each size, to get such a chart. Even then, without really nice test equipment, some of it might still be subjective. Sounds very expensive and time consuming. I don't see Performance vs. Wing loading charts in our future. So I guess we are stuck with dividing canopies into three categories, square, semi, and fully elliptical, then comparing them within those categories.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jan 21, 2003, 1:32 PM
Post #23 of 62 (2395 views)
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Re: [Hooknswoop] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It seems to me a un-bias company would have to do the tests for each and every canopy, using expensive test equipment and a hundred jumps or so per canopy for each size, to get such a chart. Even then, without really nice test equipment, some of it might still be subjective.

It would be interesting to at least see some simple and useful information such as polar curves for the recommended weight range of the canopy. This -could- be done fairly inexpensively using nothing more than a Kestral 4000. Make one CRW altitude test jump at the lower, middle and upper recommended range for that particular canopy and I think you'd have all the data to generate the curves.

At least, that's how I'm planning on doing it. Wink Of course, I'll only be doing it for my canopy at my wingloading so I think I'm only going to need to do one jump. We'll see how that works out in reality.

BTW, airplane companies are required to do this sort of testing for certification purposes. It's not all that difficult or expensive, nor does it need to be performed by an un-biased 3rd party as long as everyone involved is interested in facts and not marketing.


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Jan 21, 2003, 1:43 PM
Post #24 of 62 (2391 views)
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Re: [quade] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
BTW, airplane companies are required to do this sort of testing for certification purposes. It's not all that difficult or expensive, nor does it need to be performed by an un-biased 3rd party as long as everyone involved is interested in facts and not marketing.

Right, but aircraft are equipped with altimeters, VSI's, airspeed indicators,etc. Canopys aren't. Plus the test flight can last 3 hourse, generally. Canopy flights are not anywhere near that long. Didn't like that short field landing, power up and try again, no packing, manifesting, ride to altitude, etc. If was easy and cheap, and proved that a particular canopy's performance, manufacturers would publish these charts.

Think about how much it would cost to fully test one canopy, roll rate, descent rate, glide ratio, airspeed, etc, over a wide range of wing loadings. Then compensate for non-standard temperature and pressure. If it was cheap, why hasn;t it been done?

I have read a lot of ads proclaiming a canopy to have the "highest perfomance" of any canopy. Jumpers are interested in facts, manufacturers give us marketing.

Hook


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 21, 2003, 1:51 PM
Post #25 of 62 (2384 views)
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Re: [cobaltdan] Type of main canopy you fly? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so I understand...

You're telling us to throw out the only classification system we have, without giving us a replacement.

What charactersitics of the Cobalt make it an ideal student canopy, but not the Stiletto?

What method of evaluation should we use to make these decisions ourselves, or should we just take your word for it?

_Am


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