I'm not sure if that's what you're asking, but the only thing I can think of is when your first point in a figure is not the one you're flying out of the aircraft.
Then, to build the first real point from the figure that left the aircraft, you don't need total separation, you just need to switch grips if necessary...
You have a grip. You want to move to another grip. You take the second grip before letting go of the first grip. There is no time when you don't have a grip.
In most forms of competitive relative work, it's a bust (or foul) to grip switch. Except when used as part of an exit, before you build the first point.
Yes it's a bust if you are competing. But it is also an excellent technique when just starting out and still learning. There's nothing wrong with grip switching to avoid funneling/falling out of a dive. So I saw switch away! Do whatever you have to to stay in the dive. You learn a hell of a lot more that way.
I beg to disagree... the best skill one can have is to fly your slot solidly and no contact. If you have to use the grip to keep your position, you're not only not learning how to fly, but there's a great chance you are impairing the flight of whomever you're gripping. Let go, move, stop THEN dock..
Agreed. That's the ideal way to learn. But I'd rather have someone hang on and stay in the dive. Much preferred to chasing them all over the sky. If youre about to sink out - grab hold, stay with the dive, then try again once stable. Of course I'm only talking about doing a fun jump, not anything serious. Just my $0.02
No excuses, Marine (I was in the Corps for 6 years ;>). If you can't stay with a formation, fly in the base and/or get a roomier jumpsuit. You've got a wind tunnel at your home DZ, for Chrissakes! And I see you're a USPA coach. Don't learn bad habits and don't teach them. It's easier for big guys these days. Us little folks wear slick suits and the big guys wear roomier suits. I've done 4-way with guys who outweighed me by 100 lbs with no problem. I know you can learn how to slow down before taking grips.
I am very new to 4 way but my coaches and other experienced jumpers have all made it clear that grip switching is bad, very bad!
I don't know if those "experienced" jumpers you are talking about were gold medal winners in 4-way but I have had people like Solly Williams preach the benefits of doing a grip switch. In fact many 4-way teams do grips switches on exit.
Wow... I think you should read the whole thread before posting any further.
OK I have read the whole thread and I still believe that ANYONE who makes a blanket statement that grip switching is bad, very bad does not have a solid understanding of lauchcing a 4-way. In my opinion many exits launch better with a grip switch after the launch. Of course I would love to hear your reasoning on why you believe I shouldn't post a response to the implied statement ALL grip switching is bad.
Feel free to send me a PM in the future if you have issues with what I post. Of course if you prefer the open forums then ignore my suggestion.
I might be wrong, but I had the impression that we are not talking about exits anymore... yes, many beginners teams prefer to learn 2 or 3 exits very well and "transition" to the first point on the hill, and that's one if not the only reason you gripswitch. I'm one in favor of gripswitching to transition to the first point on exit...
Now, I didn't read the guy saying that ALL gripswitching is bad... when I read his post, I automatically edited in my head to "...gripswitching [except on the exit] is bad"... for all the reasons mentioned above.
I might be wrong, but I had the impression that we are not talking about exits anymore... yes, many beginners teams prefer to learn 2 or 3 exits very well and "transition" to the first point on the hill, and that's one if not the only reason you gripswitch. I'm one in favor of gripswitching to transition to the first point on exit...
Now, I didn't read the guy saying that ALL gripswitching is bad... when I read his post, I automatically edited in my head to "...gripswitching [except on the exit] is bad"... for all the reasons mentioned above.
Please explain why it would be bad in 16-way competition, where it is quite legal.
Grip switching in a narrow context is a crutch which can inhibit the very jump one is attempting to accomplish. It can also be a crutch which can enable bad personal flying habits. That's in a narrow contex.
If I open up the window a tad, there are plenty of situations in which a grip switch can be a useful tool, even if merely in a form of "risk reduction". When working with people coming up the skill level _I_ might execute a grip switch with them to avoid losing them. I wouldn't necessarily tell them to execute one since they can funnel the whole thing doing that. But I'd know when to let go, when to hold on.
I'm trying to remember the move, but fun jumpers used to regularly use one on some block sequence; bi-pole, donut? Bi-pole Bi-pole? I can't remember. But the "trick" was that I guess it wasn't technically a grip switch so much as a significantly delayed release. One guy would keep a leg grip through much of the piece move and only release it as the new formation was closing. Mostly it allowed you to aggressively move through a block.
In large formations, we used them to do major shifts. Inner sections might release a grip and drift back until they unfolded and met another grip. Dunno if that technically qualifies as a grip switch or not. We used to regularly do a large donut-cat-donut with 20 folks or more that was really nothing more than on big huge grip switch as you unfolded the donut and picked up the other leg, kept it moving and then released the opposite leg to reform the opposite donut.
The "bad, very bad" is mostly about 4-8 way where you have folks basically climbing all over each other and dragging folks back/down/out in the process. It was a very common technique in the early days of RW before folks realized it was better to keep flying than to turn every dive into a horny gorrilla.
Please explain why it would be bad in 16-way competition, where it is quite legal.
In general terms, if you depend on gripswitching to keep your position or to move to a new position, then it's bad. If you use it to shave off a few seconds from one figure to the other and it is permissible, I don't see a problem.
It's like block 16 (compress-box). While it's arguable they are gripswitching, they are using grip anchoring to perform the block in less time.
much different than Block 16 which is 4 way and no way can it be argued there is grip switching at all.
Grip switching is a great tool for people to leverage in competitions when it's allowed (exit to 1st point, 16 way, etc). Or for instructors to do in order to keep an unruly student in control, or,,,,,,,or,,,,,or
As a learning tool for a newbie learning to fly - I think it's a bad habit prior to learning to fly your body.
I can't believe how much of this thread is based on people not taking the time to understand each other's perspectives on very different applications of the topic.
(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 8, 2009, 12:35 PM)
I'm solidly with Ed on this one. If you need to use me to stay in the formation because your flying skills are not up to the task at hand, then what are you doing on this dive? Don't care if it's a fun dive or not. I've been "that guy" taking people out, and been taken out by them plenty of times. Don't like it either way.
Using grip switches as a substitute for flying skill is not a way to progress. Anyone who uses it at first can certainly be forgiven, and instructed on how to do better, and perhaps moved to a different slot in the dives to help ensure better success with less temptation to use it. However, if (s)he has the attitude that it's acceptable all the time - well, obviously you have little or no interest in improving your flying skills and therefore over time will be invited on fewer and fewer dives.
There are lots of fun jumpers out there who have never been on teams who kick serious ass in the sky either on their heads or on their bellies for the same reasons that competitors do - they constantly strive to do better. And so should you.
