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'D' Bag orientation

 

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benpat  (C 2074)

Apr 3, 2009, 8:52 AM
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'D' Bag orientation Can't Post

Just curious...My container manufacturer specifies that the 'D' bag line stows should be at the bottom of the container (facing your heels). Can anyone tell me why I can't stow the 'D' bag with the stows facing my back?,would this method give a cleaner deployment? what am I missing? What do you think?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 3, 2009, 9:11 AM
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

Each manufacturer has their own recommendations.

I'd recommend you follow their recommendation as the bag is sized/cut to fit that way. Or ask them directly. What kind of rig do you have? How new.


My Odyssey packs lines to the back pad, and it fits perfectly that way and pointing the lines to the BOC doesn't fit right at all. I had a pro (a rep for Sunpath at the time insist on this as he observed I was stuck in lines to BOC from old habits......, his way the bag comes out without extra rotation per the designers of that config - that's where I learned it, once I did that, it was apparent the bag is sized to fit in that orientation)

My old Vector definitely packs lines to the BOC. It has a label that says to pack lines to the BOC. packing it line to backpad makes it an ugly lumpy packjob.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 3, 2009, 1:22 PM)


airtwardo  (D License)

Apr 3, 2009, 9:35 AM
Post #3 of 74 (2273 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just curious...My container manufacturer specifies that the 'D' bag line stows should be at the bottom of the container (facing your heels). Can anyone tell me why I can't stow the 'D' bag with the stows facing my back?,would this method give a cleaner deployment? what am I missing? What do you think?


If the bag fits in that way and you are careful about keeping the closing loop clear of suspension lines it should work, but like I always tell people that want to vary from the manufactures recommendations:

~Try it a few dozen times and let me know if there were any reserve rides. Wink


benpat  (C 2074)

Apr 3, 2009, 9:42 AM
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a Micron 308 with a Katana120 a medium fit, so the 'D' bag can kinda morph into the shape that it's presented with.
I like the idea of no extra rotations on it's way out...


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 3, 2009, 9:58 AM
Post #5 of 74 (2234 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I like the idea of no extra rotations on it's way out...

You shouldn't be trying things just because you like an idea.

Trust the manufacturer recommendations - they know more than you do.
They're designs are proven with blood.

There may be things you haven't imagined, that would render your idea foolhardy.

For example, by putting the lines under the reserve pack, you may increase the possibility of the lines snagging where they go around the corners from the riser stow channels, to the d-bag. That could cause the bag to spin coming off your back, leading to severe line twists. Or it could leave a line stuck under there, causing a severe spin when the canopy opens. Or it could even rip the reserve pack right off the harness - it's happened before.

If you want to experiment, be prepared to pay for it.

With 15 years in the sport, I would think you would know this stuff already...


(This post was edited by JohnRich on Apr 3, 2009, 10:01 AM)


benpat  (C 2074)

Apr 3, 2009, 10:13 AM
Post #6 of 74 (2215 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

You're frightening me now.....


Halfpastniner  (D 30747)

Apr 3, 2009, 10:16 AM
Post #7 of 74 (2208 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I like the idea of no extra rotations on it's way out...

You shouldn't be trying things just because you like an idea.

Trust the manufacturer recommendations - they know more than you do.
They're designs are proven with blood.

There may be things you haven't imagined, that would render your idea foolhardy.

For example, by putting the lines under the reserve pack, you may increase the possibility of the lines snagging where they go around the corners from the riser stow channels, to the d-bag. That could cause the bag to spin coming off your back, leading to severe line twists. Or it could leave a line stuck under there, causing a severe spin when the canopy opens. Or it could even rip the reserve pack right off the harness - it's happened before.

If you want to experiment, be prepared to pay for it.

With 15 years in the sport, I would think you would know this stuff already...

+1

My rigger has told me the horror story of lines that sat under the reserve container. Premature deployment in a head up freeflying position and those lines could rip the reserve container right off.

At that point better pray the main is good!Shocked


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 3, 2009, 11:01 AM
Post #8 of 74 (2180 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You're frightening me now.....

Good - then you got my point.

Seemingly innocent and benign things in this sport, can have drastic consequences if you change them. It's not a good idea to make changes without first consulting people who have been around a while, or people with expertise in the area.


benpat  (C 2074)

Apr 3, 2009, 12:07 PM
Post #9 of 74 (2136 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

Pssst......I think I can hear the sound of people rotating their 'D' bags...

(stows to the BOC).....Smile


trumanjsparks

Apr 3, 2009, 12:16 PM
Post #10 of 74 (2127 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

The parachute doesn't know the difference...but then what do I know?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 3, 2009, 1:18 PM
Post #11 of 74 (2082 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
increase the possibility of the lines snagging where they go around the corners from the riser stow channels, to the d-bag...

Thus, it's also good to get an idea of how much unstowed line to leave at the end of the pack, where to route them before inserting the bag (in whatever orientation....)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2009, 1:20 PM
Post #12 of 74 (2076 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

What you are describing is done quite often by wingsuiters, it's known as packing with the grommet up. This can be done with most containers, however, there are some D bags/containers out there that may not allow for the D bag to be used in this orientation as the flaps may not close correctly and or the pack tray may bulge due to the shape of the D bag in that orientation. Jump Shack makes a D bag specifically built for wingsuiters that allows the D bag to be placed into the container this way and still fill the pack tray evenly.

Why is it you are wanting to pack this way, are you trying to correct for a deployment/ opening problem?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 3, 2009, 1:21 PM
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Re: [JohnRich] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's not a good idea to make changes without first consulting people who have been around a while, or people with expertise in the area.

How about just "people with expertise in the area"? designers, or riggers that have explicitly been trained by the designers or with docs prepared by the designers

In my experience, "People who have been around awhile" usually seem to have made it a habit of practicing really bad crap for years on end. (another good reason to not solicit advice on DZ.com)


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Apr 3, 2009, 1:23 PM)


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Apr 3, 2009, 1:25 PM
Post #14 of 74 (2061 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
packing with the grommet up

"grommet up" I love that.

Since up is pointing to the sky.....

If I'm belly flying, then it's lines to the backpad
If I'm standing or upright flying, then it's lines to the BOC
If I'm on my head, then it's lines up against the reserve tray

what a horrible description


benpat  (C 2074)

Apr 3, 2009, 1:27 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

Why is it you are wanting to pack this way, are you trying to correct for a deployment/ opening problem?

Yes, I had a spinner recently for no good reason, had a reserve ride. I guess I'm trying to reinvent the wheel......


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2009, 1:48 PM
Post #16 of 74 (2040 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

Rather than be frightened, I like Bill Booth's take on the concept that skydivers will always be pushing the envelope, and that this is how the manufacturers receive feedback and improve products.
One well-known rig manufacturer has said that cut/dynamic corners are not a good idea. Yet other manufacturers chuckle at that statement.
I'm not only about to NOT follow that manufacturer's recommendation, they've lost credibility in my mind.
A manufacturer also recommends routing the bridle over the closing pin via the top of the closing flaps.
I've chosen to route my bridle beneath the closing pin, via the bottom of the closing flaps.

If you're an experienced skydiver, I don't see anything wrong with experimenting one step at a time to learn if another idea works for you. Manufacturers are imaginative, creative, and intelligent, but those factors don't mean they always know what's best for your particular method of deploying, flying, etc.
Another example; A manufacturer might recommend one method of folding the pilot chute, yet Brian Germain teaches a different method. Both are viable. Experimenting with packing brought new methods to the table too. Some wingsuiters prefer grommet to grommet, others don't. Both swear by their methods. Somewhere, sometime, someone had to experiment.
I feel everyone becomes better by screwing up or by learning what doesn't work. Having everything go right teaches nothing.

If you're new...I agree. Follow manufacturer recommendations.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Apr 3, 2009, 2:06 PM
Post #17 of 74 (2018 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
packing with the grommet up

"grommet up" I love that.

Since up is pointing to the sky.....

If I'm belly flying, then it's lines to the backpad
If I'm standing or upright flying, then it's lines to the BOC
If I'm on my head, then it's lines up against the reserve tray

what a horrible description


How about "grommet to pin", does that paint a better picture?


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2009, 2:11 PM
Post #18 of 74 (2008 views)
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Re: [benpat] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why is it you are wanting to pack this way, are you trying to correct for a deployment/ opening problem?

Yes, I had a spinner recently for no good reason, had a reserve ride. I guess I'm trying to reinvent the wheel......


Out of 1800 jumps this has happened to you how many times? We all get spinners once in awhile, unless it is happening a lot, I think you should go with what you know. Of course that doesn't preclude trying packing grommet to pin to see if you notice any improvements in your deployments. Quite a few people pack this way regularly, I happen to be one of them and have no issues with it, YMMV.


JohnRich  (D License)

Apr 3, 2009, 2:34 PM
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Re: [DSE] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I feel everyone becomes better by screwing up or by learning what doesn't work. Having everything go right teaches nothing.

Well there's a wonderful statement. <sarcasm>

People die by screwing up, and the lesson we should learn from their deaths is that we shouldn't follow their screw-ups by repeating them.

Do you really have 13,000 jumps in just two years in this sport?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Apr 3, 2009, 2:50 PM
Post #20 of 74 (1984 views)
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Re: [JohnRich] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I feel everyone becomes better by screwing up or by learning what doesn't work. Having everything go right teaches nothing.

Well there's a wonderful statement. <sarcasm>

People die by screwing up, and the lesson we should learn from their deaths is that we shouldn't follow their screw-ups by repeating them.
I stand by my statement. Having everything go right teaches nothing, not when learning is an objective.
People LIVE by screwing up and learning from it, too. In fact, far more people live by screwing up and learning than those that die by screwing up.

Success is only found from a series of failures.
Failure=Screwup.
Can you truly not understand this concept?

In reply to:
Do you really have 13,000 jumps in just two years in this sport?

Yeah. Of course I do. Crazy
Jan Meyer really is posting from Belgium, too.Tongue


(This post was edited by DSE on Apr 3, 2009, 3:59 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 3, 2009, 8:02 PM
Post #21 of 74 (1890 views)
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Re: [DSE] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
One well-known rig manufacturer has said that cut/dynamic corners are not a good idea. Yet other manufacturers chuckle at that statement.

I pretty much agree they are not a real good idea.

And as for the grommet up thing, there's no real reason I can see for using it. There have been fatalities int he past that involved not packing/closing a container to manufacturer's specifications.


mnskydiver688  (D 30125)

Apr 3, 2009, 9:04 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

Why are they not a good idea? If it is "friction staging" nevermind, there is another thread where that idea was beaten to death. I am just curious, because I have talked with a master rigger that teaches rigging courses and he doesn't see the issue. I am just curious to hear more reasons why they are a bad idea.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Apr 4, 2009, 12:06 AM
Post #23 of 74 (1838 views)
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Re: [mnskydiver688] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why are they not a good idea? If it is "friction staging" nevermind, there is another thread where that idea was beaten to death. I am just curious, because I have talked with a master rigger that teaches rigging courses and he doesn't see the issue. I am just curious to hear more reasons why they are a bad idea.

+1, so long as it doesn't involve the friction staging silliness.
Specifics of any incident directly related to dynamic corners would be even better.


rhys  (D 95)

Apr 4, 2009, 4:08 AM
Post #24 of 74 (1815 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And as for the grommet up thing, there's no real reason I can see for using it. There have been fatalities int he past that involved not packing/closing a container to manufacturer's specifications.

I agree, it works the way the manufacturer made it, they tested it and payed lots of money and spent lots of time testing the system. If you go experimenting unecessarily you will most likely be trying things that have already been done in the past, and unlearning what has been made.

If there is a problem however, then resolving the problem is a different story altogether. I'll use an example i know of to explain;

My fancee's old Javelin would fit her 107main in it even though that main size and type was a size bigger than the maximum, officially supposed to go in the container.

Rotatng the bag so the lines were at the bottom was basically wedging the D bag into a space it wasn't supposed to fit in. So in the end she packed it with the grommet up and ths allowed a cleaner, more reliable deployment.

Should she have that canopy in that container? Debateable, but according to the manufacturer she shouldn't have because it was beyond the parametres they tested.

It did work however and she made 1000's of jumps on that system. note:She did have some P/C hesitations after her deployment system had a couple of 1000 jumps but replacing the P/C resolved the problem. She has to this day never had a reserve ride and has 6000 jumps.

If you have a perfect working sysytem, why change it?

What is the point of routing the bridle at the bottom of the flap rather than the top as you mentioned?

The system has been tested? Do you gain 'anything' from changing it, other than being different?


zoom1

Apr 4, 2009, 6:16 AM
Post #25 of 74 (1785 views)
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Re: [DSE] 'D' Bag orientation [In reply to] Can't Post

i dont have a ton of jumps but saying "success is only found from a SERIES of failures"sounds scarey . this is ok if your learning to bake a cake, but in skydiving we want no failures . as a aff instructor i hope you dont teach that failure is ok and a good way to learn


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