Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
What is this canopy? #32767

 

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howardwhite  (C 3896)

Apr 1, 2009, 5:35 PM
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What is this canopy? #32767 Can't Post

There are probably a few people here who will know, but not many. I don't know much about it and would like to know more from those who know its creator.

HW
Attachments: ff.jpg (49.0 KB)


PeteS  (D 8230)

Apr 1, 2009, 9:50 PM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm pretty sure it is a Barrish design.


gjhdiver  (D 7731)

Apr 1, 2009, 10:46 PM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are probably a few people here who will know, but not many. I don't know much about it and would like to know more from those who know its creator.

HW

I remember that this is a German accuracy canopy from the early to mid 80's. The bottom holes were meant to keep it pressurized in really deep brake settings. I'm blanking on the name of it though, or the designer.


D22369  (D 22369)

Apr 1, 2009, 11:46 PM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

ummm... no idea what it is.. but where's the slider? and is that the freebag over the center cell?

Roy


edit to add:

is the X shaped connectors for CRW? Tongue


(This post was edited by D22369 on Apr 1, 2009, 11:48 PM)


mccurley  (E 663)

Apr 2, 2009, 1:27 AM
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Re: [D22369] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

The X is the slider, sometimes called a spider slider.
Sometimes these were reefed to the pilot chute
Thats just the bag on top not a freebag.
No idea who made the canopy but it sure is uglyTongue

On a second look, I think that is the top of the pilot chute showing not the bag.


(This post was edited by mccurley on Apr 2, 2009, 1:29 AM)


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 2, 2009, 5:13 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

I met the designer last year, Mr. S., demonstrating one of his kites based on the same principles. He no longer jumps. He married a former Canadian accuracy champ, they live in the Toronto area, fly a C-150 and are building a Glastar homebuilt. A couple years back I posted a copy of an old article here, that I had found about the design, at a time when I had no clue about the canopy.

The meeting was at a informal Canadian skydiving pioneers reunion that's on again this year, organized by Beatnik. He knows more about the design...


(This post was edited by pchapman on Apr 2, 2009, 5:15 AM)


howardwhite  (C 3896)

Apr 2, 2009, 5:58 AM
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Re: [pchapman] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup. That's him. I think I met him years ago at Z-Hills, and I checked out his web site after your post. (For extra credit, do you remember what he called it?)
It would be interesting to hear from him about the design points of his canopy (I have several other pictures of it.)

(For others -- it's not German and it's not Barish).

HW


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Apr 2, 2009, 8:12 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Yup. That's him. I think I met him years ago at Z-Hills, and I checked out his web site after your post. (For extra credit, do you remember what he called it?)
It would be interesting to hear from him about the design points of his canopy (I have several other pictures of it.)

(For others -- it's not German and it's not Barish).

HW

Is that canopy from Steve Sutton? He's the first I remember cutting all those holes in the bottom of a ram air. He was doing that sort of thing at Z-Hills in 1974. I did some sewing for him. Watched him hand deploy a 24' flat reserve behind one of his designs that was "acting up" as he got to about 200 feet. I can still hear the thud he made when he landed...


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Apr 2, 2009, 10:55 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

and it's a six cell? Am I seeing that right? How many other ram air canopies were even numbered cells? What other than 5, 7, 9 and 11 cell are there for skydiving specifically? (Re: the 11 cell. I once packed for Patrick DeGayardon when he was jumping the only 11 cell thing made for him by Parachutes de France. It's the only one I've ever heard of.)


SivaGanesha  (A 65419)

Apr 2, 2009, 11:27 AM
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Re: [RogerRamjet] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is that canopy from Steve Sutton?

Yes, Steve Sutton would be "Mr. S".


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Apr 2, 2009, 11:39 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Steve Sutton's FlowForm kites are interesting. They look just like this parachute only they are four cells. Are you going to post more photos, HW?


mccurley  (E 663)

Apr 2, 2009, 2:35 PM
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Re: [pchapman] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Was that Kathy Cox?


muff528  (D 17609)

Apr 2, 2009, 3:20 PM
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Re: [kimemerson] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
and it's a six cell? Am I seeing that right? How many other ram air canopies were even numbered cells? What other than 5, 7, 9 and 11 cell are there for skydiving specifically? (Re: the 11 cell. I once packed for Patrick DeGayardon when he was jumping the only 11 cell thing made for him by Parachutes de France. It's the only one I've ever heard of.)

I made a few jumps on a AR-11 back in the early-mid 90's. That was an 11-cell made by Aerodyne. As I recall, it was a decent canopy with a pretty good glide ratio. Great for those nice long Zhills spots.Smile
Also, wasn't the Excalibur REALLY a 7-cell with 3 chambers/cell. It was referred to as a 21-cell canopy IIRC.


kimemerson  (D 13439)

Apr 2, 2009, 4:47 PM
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Re: [muff528] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Also, wasn't the Excalibur REALLY a 7-cell with 3 chambers/cell. It was referred to as a 21-cell canopy IIRC.

yep.


howardwhite  (C 3896)

Apr 2, 2009, 5:42 PM
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Re: [NovaTTT] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Are you going to post more photos, HW?
If you insist.Cool

HW
Attachments: Sutton1.jpg (76.4 KB)
  Sutton2.jpg (67.7 KB)
  Sutton3.jpg (71.1 KB)
  Sutton4.jpg (49.6 KB)
  Sutton6.jpg (60.4 KB)


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Apr 2, 2009, 5:55 PM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Not only do I know what it is. I am the owner of the canopy. Steve gave me ownership of it last year. It is a very interesting canopy with a very interesting design history.


howardwhite  (C 3896)

Apr 2, 2009, 6:16 PM
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Re: [Beatnik] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent. According to my notes, it's a Flow-Form 288. I think people would be interested in some of the design thinking -- why the holes in the bottom surface, why the bump in the top surface,etc. The back slot sort of reminds me of a Sled.

HW


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Apr 2, 2009, 6:34 PM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Will post more when I land and am in my hotel in Inuvik. Trying to do it from the phone would drive me nuts. More soon...


pchapman  (D 1014)

Apr 2, 2009, 6:50 PM
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Re: [mccurley] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Mccurley: Yes, Steve Sutton married Kathy Cox.


mccurley  (E 663)

Apr 2, 2009, 7:15 PM
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Re: [pchapman] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

About the nicest skydiving lady I ever met.
I have a great photo of her some were


SivaGanesha  (A 65419)

Apr 2, 2009, 7:52 PM
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Re: [mccurley] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
About the nicest skydiving lady I ever met.
I have a great photo of her some were

I never actually met either Kathy or Steve; however, Kathy's exhibition jump into Seagram Stadium (now University Stadium) in Waterloo at a football game was a big factor in my originally getting into the sport years ago. The jump was in support of Dave Shannon, a rugby player (not, to my knowledge, a skydiver) who had recently become a quadriplegic and it gave me a very positive impression of skydiving and skydivers--it changed the image of skydiving that I'd previously had.

Dave seems to be doing well for himself these days--he's currently on an expedition to the North Pole:

Introduction | Team Independence '09


zoobrothertom  (D 9397)

Apr 3, 2009, 6:18 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Damn! Talk about come serious cross venting!

How did it handle? Landings? Accuracy?


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Apr 3, 2009, 6:22 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Nice photos, HW. Thanks for posting. Do you know anything about the performance of this parachute?


Beatnik  (D 1051)

Apr 3, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: [howardwhite] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is some of the design thinking that went into the FlowForm. Shortly after Steve Sutton started jumping he became interested in canopy design and worked with Steve Snyder with early ramair air prototypes. Steve Sutton told me that he has Snyder's second prototype ramair in his basement. Sutton started on rounds and saw what stability was gained by adding a hole into a round allowing it to vent. He figured what not do the same with a ramair.

Then the experiments started happening with the different mods and holes being cut into the parachute. Some worked well and others not. Suttons main goal was to harness the abundance of high pressure air and create stability and thrust with it. The parachute constantly pressurize with the air around it and is really a soft wing opposed to what is trying to be designed now. All of the holes did a couple of other things for the parachute. The holes reduced the amount of drag on the parachute and allowed to use fewer lines than a typical parachute would. Since the parachute is constantly pressurizing regardless of its speed, the parachute itself will not stall.

In the 70's Steve Sutton worked with Ted Strong on this design and it never really went anywhere in the parachute world. In the kite world from what I know it is one of the top kite designs to this day.

When I was down at Strong Enterprises in August. Ted thought that the FlowForm had potential in cargo delivery systems.

I was not able to get all the questions answered that I would have liked about the parachute. Like why it is mainly designed around even number cell designs. I was told it would work with any number of cells so I guess it was done for symmetry or something.

Any questions I will try to answer as much as I can. I am away from home right now and working long hours so my answers might be limited but I will do my best.


skypuppy  (D 347)

Apr 3, 2009, 3:34 PM
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Re: [kimemerson] What is this canopy? #32767 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have a Lazer 8 -- it's a fine canopy, other than being a bit confusing for someone if you're doing crw. They made it as a 7, 8 or 9...


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