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Gainer-exit in WS-environment

 

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Deniq

Mar 8, 2009, 12:18 AM
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Gainer-exit in WS-environment Can't Post

Please post here yours WS-experience concerning gainer-exits. Safety rules? Specials?


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Mar 8, 2009, 8:30 AM
Post #2 of 55 (2231 views)
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Re: [Deniq] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please post here yours WS-experience concerning gainer-exits. Safety rules? Specials?

Have done it. Recommend it.
Don't do one from a Skyvan next to a very large guy named Nick with a camo Blade.Unimpressed


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 8, 2009, 9:18 AM
Post #3 of 55 (2196 views)
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Re: [DSE] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Please post here yours WS-experience concerning gainer-exits. Safety rules? Specials?

Have done it. Recommend it.
Don't do one from a Skyvan next to a very large guy named Nick with a camo Blade.Unimpressed

You can't just leave it at that. The rest of the story, please.

To the OP, gainer exits are fun and not difficult.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Mar 8, 2009, 9:40 AM
Post #4 of 55 (2184 views)
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Re: [Deniq] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Please post here yours WS-experience concerning gainer-exits. Safety rules? Specials?


Safety wise, when jumping with others,do not do a gainer exit if the others are doing the typical poised exit. The collisions are not only ugly but could be detrimental to those involved. It can also cause traffic issues, which can prove to be detrimental as well.

Gainers are a lot of fun to do on your own and as a group, but it tends to spread the group out more and increases build times. Gainers,believe it or not, are one of the easier to do moves but seems to be the most intimidating to those who have yet to do them or those who try to muscle the move. I make it a point to have everyone do a gainer exit during my skills camps and it always proves to be one of the most fun dives. When done right, two people can leave simultaneously, like in the attached pictures. However, it can also turn into Wingsuit-fu if the guy next to you is not in synch with you or a little over amped. The result is typically a blow to the head from a hand or foot or in some cases, an outright body slam as two bodies plummet off of the tailgate.
Attachments: web2238.jpg (86.1 KB)
  web2259.jpg (94.6 KB)


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 12:35 PM
Post #5 of 55 (2129 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

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Safety wise, when jumping with others, do not do a gainer exit if the others are doing the typical poised exit.

Glad to see you stopped doing that organising-wise, like we tried to tell you several times back then...that shit was scary at An72 in 2006 and 2007...The videos I edited on the boogie those years has some truly scary moments in there on the exits..


(This post was edited by mccordia on Mar 8, 2009, 12:36 PM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Mar 8, 2009, 2:57 PM
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

I have never advocated mixing gainer and poised exits, especially at the AN-72 boogie. The times I was made aware of someone doing a gainer while everyone poised, I made sure that it was stopped. I don't know where you got the idea I was OK with that, but that is far from the truth.

As long as everyone is exiting the same way it's not an issue, gainer or poised. The only issue becomes incidental contact when both people leave simultaneously and bump one another.


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 3:29 PM
Post #7 of 55 (2053 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

You had half the load (in one group/jump) doing gainer exits, and the other half poised exits on multiple ocassions as part of your diveplan.

This resulted in many scary situations with people crossing eachother in different directions, especialy at the 'transition point' in the exits.

Outside of those jumps where it was part of the exit/diveplan you made, you also specificly told people to try gainer exits if they hadnt tried those, which several people did (just watch the videos again).

Quote:
The times I was made aware of someone doing a gainer while everyone poised, I made sure that it was stopped.

No you did not. And everyone present at the boogie will confirm that (two who read the previous posts already commented on MSN, confirming what I said, and if you want Ill gladly get most people present at the boogie to chime in on the subject here?)

I attended every single debrief, and outside of a lauging 'look at these two guys doing a cool gainer exit' on the middle of a complete group of poised exits, you didnt comment on a single one in a negative way.

Mark, Duncan, I and quite a few others made some suggestions during the debriefs (I think most people remember those) on the gainer exits (and not doing them!) but at the time, you didnt see it as a problem and kept saying 'this is how we do it back home all the time' as validation for doing so. This is all stuff that happened in front of every single flyer present at the debriefs.

Your debriefs (at An72) tended to only focus on the positions people were flying (slot-wise) and did not really go into negative aspects of peoples flying at a more direct and personal level. And seem to have issues with accepting input from others.


Much as my comments over skype, email before and at the boogie past year, to both you and Rolf and letting people with sub-200 jumps on the plane, doing wingsuit jumps in front/after bigways. Going against everything the two of you are supposed to advocate as BMC-I's.
How can you publicly state that number as a manditory jumpnumber, yet be completely okay with people not sticking to that and jumping out, potentialy endangering the whole group in front or after them?
Even if a coach is present, what will you do if that low-experience flying dives into a group/flies the wrong way or worse? We can offer some hints, signals and examples in the sky, but during the jump we are mostly glorified observers.

I know you see yourself as the main source of knowledge on the subject, and fully second that you do know a lot. But it doesnt hurt to also admit/realise other people have inputs and improvements on your methods and knowledge as well, and what we know/do/advocate can improve/change/be updated over time.

And that there is NOTHING wrong with admitting to being human, and actually learning new things and changing your actions due to that over time..Ill gladly share every single fuckup Ive ever made, every bad dicission in organsing (mine and others) if it means people learn from it. Hiding it, and acting like it never happened doesnt teach anyone a single thing.

Comparing the bigway organising at An72 the past years, to the stuff the FlockU guys did in Elsinore. Its freefly zoo dives vs RW bigway standards in terms organising.

They made a great push for dicipline/stricter flying, and actually cutting people out of those bigger groups as well. Something which hasnt happened in any of the stuff at An72 in your big groups. Regardless of who dove through a formation at 200 mph or took an entire bigway into the clouds.

Though we had fun at the time, I think the accident two years ago at An72 also showed and made people realise those times are over...again..just watch the videos...

I know over time I have changed a lot of things in organising and FFCs I teach, based on what Ive seen other people do (be it in person or on videos). Its an ever evolving process, and one we should all pay attention to and wokr on together...teaching, sharing and learning..


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:09 PM
Post #8 of 55 (2030 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

*prepared lots of popcorn*


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:12 PM
Post #9 of 55 (2028 views)
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Re: [Hagen] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
*prepared lots of popcorn*

You can sit and eat popcorn, or actually practice what you preach..


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:21 PM
Post #10 of 55 (2020 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

you trained people - or at least one guy who I know personally - having less than the magic 200 jumps, too. so show Scott a good example - repent firstTongue. and let the thread become a thread not about gainer exits but a thread of repentanceAngelic.

I'll be first: I'm guilty. but I'll get better.


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:21 PM
Post #11 of 55 (2019 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

Geez... can't we all just get along? Crazy



Personally, I did my first gainer exit at Skyfest last year and loved it. Just stepped off, arm wings closed, leg wing open, wala around and fly. AWESOME!! Can't wait until I can do some more of them.


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:22 PM
Post #12 of 55 (2016 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

...and if you'll ever mention Rolf as a bad example, I'll beat you when I see you next timePirate


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:23 PM
Post #13 of 55 (2015 views)
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Re: [Bill_K] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Geez... can't we all just get along? Crazy

This is not about getting allong or picking fights.
Its just about learning from mistakes made in the past, and not twisting and turning facts just to be able to keep a spotless record.


Bill_K  (D 30260)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:26 PM
Post #14 of 55 (2011 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Geez... can't we all just get along? Crazy

This is not about getting allong or picking fights.
Its just about learning from mistakes made in the past, and not twisting and turning facts just to be able to keep a spotless record.

Don't want to get in the middle of a pissing contest. I think we all make mistakes though and we all learn what worked well and what did not work so well. At least I hope we do! I don't think any of us have spotless records.

Just seems to me like there is a lot more of this my dick is bigger than yours type of thing lately. At least from where I sit watching anyway...


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:31 PM
Post #15 of 55 (2005 views)
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Re: [Hagen] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

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...and if you'll ever mention Rolf as a bad example, I'll beat you when I see you next timePirate

Strong language and threats are a sign of weakness...Id prefer an actual conversation instead of this emotional stuff.

A bigway wingsuit boogie is no place for inexperienced flyers not meeting basic safety requirements. I greatly admire Rolf for his flying, his teaching and strong stance on safety. But afore-mentioned case (which Ive discussed at length with Rolf over email and in person) does not mesh well with teachings.

You being ready to walk onto the plane there with a rig of which you didnt even know half of its workings due to your low experience, confirmed that for a large deal.

Its nothing personal, but I am wondering what would have happened if I had not caught you with that un-cocked pilotchute, and taken the time to explain the basic workings.

Know the gear you jump. Respect the rules. They where written in blood in a lot of cases. Impatience is not a good reason to bend those.

The list of (fatal) accidents in our dicipline, and experience levels sadly asociated with those same people says a lot..

Again...people should practice what they preach a lot more...


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #16 of 55 (1998 views)
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In reply to:
Don't want to get in the middle of a pissing contest.

This isnt a pissing contest....its about everybody learning from mistakes. I know Ive made a ton. And everyone Ive flown with has.

To hide or ignore those ever happened, means nobody learns a thing...

Quote:
I think we all make mistakes though and we all learn what worked well and what did not work so well. At least I hope we do! I don't think any of us have spotless records.

Thats exactly what Im trying to say here.
And if people would be less worried about their image, and more open with regards to what they've learnt through their actions, I think we'd increase basic safety by a large margin, and also encourage sharing of information a lot more.

Quote:
Just seems to me like there is a lot more of this my dick is bigger than yours type of thing lately. At least from where I sit watching anyway...

Though dicks and ponies are fun off-topic subjects for a laugh, my intent is much more serious. And not at all about comparing, trying to look better or even starting a fight.


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:38 PM
Post #17 of 55 (1993 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

Scott, you owe me for distracting his attention from your personaLaugh

mccordia, keep on trying to explode my reputation using internet - luckily most people are wise and judge people by their acts, not by your wordsTongue

see you at a dropzone, guys -if you're not afraid of dangerous me after the sinless man's descriptions aboveSly


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:52 PM
Post #18 of 55 (1984 views)
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Re: [Hagen] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
you trained people - or at least one guy who I know personally - having less than the magic 200 jumps, too.

Indeed I did...One of the people who where sent to me for FFCs at the boogie you mentioned. I was ensured (by you) they had met the experience I specificly mentioned and required for that.

Even when you knew my stance on safety, and my refusal and discouragement for you wanting to get into this way to soon yourself.

What you dont mention is that said person also ended the FFC with a reserve parachute over his head, after which the actual jump numbers where told me when I asked again.

Ive made plenty of mistakes, done plenty of stupid things. But this is the one thing you'll never catch me bending or breaking knowingly.

Now lets quit the mudslinging, and actually be happy people learnt a lesson and are not mixing different exits anymore in bigway jumps anymore......


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 4:57 PM
Post #19 of 55 (1976 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

sorry, you mean that I'm responsible for your not knowing about your student jump numbers?


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 5:05 PM
Post #20 of 55 (1972 views)
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Re: [Hagen] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
sorry, you mean that I'm responsible for your not knowing about your student jump numbers?

When I tell a person 200 jumps is the madnitory experience level.
And he acknowledges that and chooses to hide his actual experience level. There isnt much I can do about that. And sometimes people slip by that way.

But aforementioned error in judgement (trusting people on their word) has led me to change that part of my instruction into having people show a logbook with signed jumps if its somebody who's experience I dont know. As many wingsuit coaches already did from the start.
And I have no issue at all with people mentioning me or this story as an example, if it teaches somebody something.

As mention several times before, Ive made plenty of mistakes....and this one (trusting people on their word, and not actually verifying it in their documents) is indeed a lesson I learnt there..


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 5:16 PM
Post #21 of 55 (1955 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, please, next time when you're teaching people that cannot speak any of the languages you know - and especially when you're at my home dz again, which is considered to be the best and the safest in the country - either hire an interpreter, or just make the simple action - check your student's log book.

and thanks for adding another reason for my not organizing your coming here this time - I knew that you were telling bs about me to quite many people here in your private conversation with them, but I didn't know that the bs extended to your accusing me in your instructor's errorsSmile


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 5:30 PM
Post #22 of 55 (1947 views)
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Quote:
and thanks for adding another reason for my not organizing your coming here this time

I have no problems with that...though very sorry to see you seem to think that I take some kind of joy out of seeing you get hurt or get into things way beyond your experience.

Shame you seem to think this is some personal vendetta, and not about the bigger picture (making sure everyone just follows basic rules and recomendations).

Regardless of how you see me, should you ever have questions dont hesitate to ask. There's no grudges or bad feelings on my behalf.


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 5:35 PM
Post #23 of 55 (1940 views)
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nope, I don't have questions to you - I'm afraid they will be your weapon in telling people stupid stories about meSmile

and don't ever hope that I'll be hurt or hurt anybody - I have good teachers and I'm just a good student making right conclusions from my our and others' mistakes.

take care and don't tell bs about people - gossips do not adorn a man, better spend your time on writing a book that will be better than that by ScottWink


mccordia  (D 94775)

Mar 8, 2009, 5:53 PM
Post #24 of 55 (1925 views)
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Re: [Hagen] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

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nope, I don't have questions to you - I'm afraid they will be your weapon in telling people stupid stories about meSmile

Id personaly rather ask someone for something simple such as a pincheck, and risk looking stupid, than not asking the question at all...

Quote:
writing a book that will be better than that by Scott

The world we live in is not a competition. Id rather work with someone, than against or competing. And I truly hope more people with knowledge on general or specific subjects will take the route Scott and FlockU took in releasing commercialy available instructional materials with the aim of teaching and broadening knowledge.


Hagen  (B 507)

Mar 8, 2009, 5:58 PM
Post #25 of 55 (1919 views)
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Re: [mccordia] Gainer-exit in WS-environment [In reply to] Can't Post

I said that I won't ask YOU questions - and won't ask for your help 'cause you've betrayed my trust quite enough times not to try againSmile

luckily, there are more trustworthy - I'm lucky for meeting good people in my life. so I'll ask themWink

go to bed, have good speel and stop leading the thread off topicTongue


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