Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Cobalt Question

 


Viking  (B 30397)

Aug 17, 2001, 2:19 PM
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Cobalt Question Can't Post

Is the cobalt a really agrresive canopy??? i weight about 190 and i was just wondering if i should stop dreaming and look for a more tame canopy.

Remember when Sex was safe and skydiving was Dangerous?


Premier phreezone  (D License)
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Aug 17, 2001, 4:41 PM
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How much do you weigh and how many jumps??? All needed info to make that decision

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


spectre230
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Aug 17, 2001, 5:55 PM
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Michele  (B 26874)

Aug 17, 2001, 6:59 PM
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Hey, Arthur

I sooooo remember something that Ed said to me about the purchasing and selecting of gear. This was after I announced to Ed that I was thinking about buying a Stiletto 120. After he figured out that I was teasing him, his main comment was buy something good for my level - i.e., novice. His exact wrods were: "Never let your ego buy a canopy". Now I know I quote "skygod Ed" alot here, but this seems to be excellent advice.

Keep in mind that I am a really conservative canopy pilot (except in downwind, airplane dodging moments at sunset...), so I, right now, am not going to get anything more challenging than a Spectre or Safire, and then fly the hell out of it. Bore myself to tears in it. And be able to land in every traffic situation, time of day, winds, and new dz's with confidence (notice I didn't say "on my feet"??? lol)

Check with your jm's. And then demo a bunch of stuff. You're nice. I'd like to see you around for a while.

ciel bleus-
Michele

"What of the dreams that never die? Turn to your left at the end of the sky".
~e e cummings~


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Aug 17, 2001, 7:50 PM
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I gotta agree with Michele, VIking... I like you and want you to stick around! I'd recommend a Spectre, Triathlon, Sabre2 or Safire for a first canopy...

im-oh so conservative-ho, fully elliptical canopies should be reserved for those who - a) want a swoopy landing, b) have several hundred jumps under a rectangular or tapered zp canopy under which they have been learning high performance landing techniques from an expert, c) stay and plan to stay very current, and d) have good medical insurance, because no matter how good you are, eventually you're gonna get hurt flying a high performance canopy at a higher wingloading (ask any of the top swoop pilots how many bones they've broken...).

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing against elliptical canopies or high wingloadings in the hands of qualified pilots who know the risks they are taking. But I sincerely feel that the trend towards not just allowing but encouraging novice jumpers to purchase elliptical canopies is injuring and killing our young... and thereby hurting the sport overall (how many of those injured novices never jump again??).

There are exceptions, of course. Those students who are already receiving quality canopy control training and flying canopies other than huge, all F111 nine cells and wingloadings of 1.0 - 1.2 may be capable of handling an elliptical at 30 jumps... but the average novice is not!

I can see a day in the future when every DZ has a good canopy control and high performance canopy flight training program - at that point I'd probably have no problem selling an elliptical to a novice. Until then, my opinion is that it is up to every instructor, jumpmaster, coach, gear dealer, rigger and friend to not recommend or sell elliptical canopies to our young jumpers.

I'm sure I'll get a lot of shit for this post. Don't matter. I've lost enough friends to injury or death. I stand for safety.

pull and flare,
lisa
---
I chose the road less traveled. Now where the hell am I?


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 17, 2001, 9:05 PM
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Re: Cobalt Question [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is the cobalt a really agrresive canopy??? i weight about 190 and i was just wondering if i should stop dreaming and look for a more tame canopy.
If you weigh 190, your exit weight is probably about 215.. The largest Cobalt made is a 170.. 1.26 wing loading based on a 215 exit weight.. Ok, maybe 1.26 is not ridiculous for a newbie, but on a full elliptical, at 10-20 jumps, it's almost a deathwish..

Try this.. Call several gear dealers and tell them you want to buy a Stilleto 170 or a Crossfire 169.. The first question you will get is "how many jumps do you have?".. There's a reason for that.. Regardless of how "tame" the Cobalt is at "low" wing loadings, it's still a full elliptical.. Get a semi-elliptical(such as the Spectre, Sabre2, Safire, Hornet) with around a max 1.0-1.2 wing loading.. As your instructors for a specific wing loading you should target - they know your canopy skills, none of us do..

I have always been a fairly agressive canopy pilot.. Maybe too aggressive early on.. I was jumping canopies(only squares, not ellipticals) loaded at 1.5 within 100 jumps.. Hell, I busted my leg under a Sabre at a little over 1.5.. If it had been an elliptical, I may not be alive right now.. You may be able to handle a lightly loaded elliptical when everything goes perfect - but what about when things aren't so great? You get cut off on final at 50ft, and must turn to avoid a collision.. You have a bad spot, and have to land in a small, confined area.. You have to land on really shitty terrain..

Ya know what gave me my biggest scare in skydiving? Not a cutaway.. It was an out landing in a VERY tight area.. There were 3 of us, and the landing area was about 30' wide by 50' long.. I was scared shitless sailing in under that Sabre at 1.5 with a whopping 90 jumps.. I would have loved one of those big ass Manta 288's right about then.. Smile

Best thing is to talk to your instructors.. Heed their advice.. Don't listen to somebody on a message board telling you what you should be jumping, or how safe it would be for you..

Mike



Viking  (B 30397)

Aug 17, 2001, 11:39 PM
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In reply to:
I like you and want you
whoa!!!! easy now Blush
Smile

Well i guess the Cobalt is out!!! I will probly end up with either a Spectre or a Sabre 2 b/c i plan on doing camera work and i hear these two have butter soft openings.

Remember when Sex was safe and skydiving was Dangerous?


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Aug 18, 2001, 12:23 PM
Post #8 of 19 (1381 views)
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In reply to:
b/c i plan on doing camera work and i hear these two have butter soft openings.
Uhh.... you better rethink that one for a hundred or so more jumps. I used to thinnk that anyone could fly a camera but after Summerfest i had to rethink that one. One guy scared me becaue he had 110 jumps but only 3 this year and bought a video camera to jump for the boogie. He had no idea how to climb out or how to launch any thing. He was so used to a Cessna that he could'nt find the camera float sopt on the ottters. I'm now thinking getting a D licence is a good idea before doing a camera.

Do I HAVE to do another raft dive??? Smile


spectre230
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Aug 18, 2001, 1:34 PM
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Viking  (B 30397)

Aug 18, 2001, 4:59 PM
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did i say i was going to do right away no i didn't. my dz has a manditory 200 jump limit before you are allowed to put a camera on. so you two need to calm down i am not stupid i know i have to go slow. what i was trying to say is that i want either a spectre or a Sabre 2 b/c i know as soon as i can i will get into camera work and i am best buds with all the video guys at my dz so i will be able to learn the exits and all that stuff before i even put a camera helmet on. so just chill!!!!!

Remember when Sex was safe and skydiving was Dangerous?


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 18, 2001, 5:13 PM
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"so just chill!!!!!"

Uhhh....dont ask a question and then get all pissed when someone actually answers. They put a lot of nice advice in there as a "road to" guide. If they had said "dont even think about it period dot" I can see that response but.....



"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard

Clay


spectre230
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Aug 18, 2001, 5:18 PM
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Viking  (B 30397)

Aug 18, 2001, 8:05 PM
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i just reread my post and i sound like a jackass!!! sorry dude but i had just gotten screamed at by my mom b/c i was late bringing the car back to the house so she could leave with my grandmother to go to a wedding. So i was kinda on the defensive side of things. damn i need to jump before i snap at someone in person!!

Remember when Sex was safe and skydiving was Dangerous?


spectre230
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Aug 18, 2001, 8:17 PM
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cobaltdan  (D License)

Aug 18, 2001, 9:11 PM
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>If you weigh 190, your exit weight is probably about 215.. The largest Cobalt made is a 170.. 1.26 wing loading based on a 215 exit weight.. Ok, maybe 1.26 is not ridiculous for a newbie, but on a full elliptical, at 10-20 jumps, it's almost a deathwish..

----------------------

this is a completely ignorant statement.

the only assumption one can make about an "elliptical" canopy is that it is a more efficient wing.
PERIOD. what determines whether it is a pocket rocket or a student canopy is a host of different design variables. there are "full" ellipticals that are student canopies and there are "semi"'s that are twitchy pocket rockets. your opnion must be based on the individual design as a whole.

there are "semi tapered" "docile" canopies being reccomended that are more elliptical than cobalts.
rather than play this manufacturers game of calling apples, oranges just to avoid popular ignorance.
we are trying to educate.

the predecessor to the cobalt, called the alpha in the us and impulse in europe was marketed by skydepot (us) and performance variable (europe) for 6 years to students and begineers. the only difference between the student version and the pro version was the label and loading reccomendations.

we have a tremendous track record with this canopy and begineers. the cobalt is the exact same airfoil and planform. (there are minor improvements that increase rigidity and efficiency, makes for a huge difference at extreme loadings).

the skill required to fly a cobalt is equal to that required to fly a sabre or safire.
we strongly believe a cobalt is a superior choice for most people in this skill range.

to any pocket rocket flyers that are predjudiced into believing that a cobalt which can be flown at extreme loadings is not suitable for a newbie at light loadings. please try one loaded 1.2-1.4 and directly compare it to a safire or sabre at 1.0-1.2. you will find it equaly stable, slower in foward speed, much more efficient ie. flater glide, more lift, much more flare, more difficult to stall and the opening force is lower and safer at higher speeds.

sincerely,

dan
atair



Viking  (B 30397)

Aug 18, 2001, 10:18 PM
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damn dan its about damn time what took you so long??? i even sent you a private msg like a week or more ago. j/k but thanx for chiming in dude Smile

Remember when Sex was safe and skydiving was Dangerous?


spectre230
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Aug 19, 2001, 2:39 AM
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bbbilly14  (B License)

Aug 19, 2001, 3:15 AM
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Yes, Viking, It's me AGAIN!
Take spectre's advice, I think. Although this forum has me listed as a Newbie, I think I have at least enough experience to respect what he has to say (check out his experience as posted in the umm, can't remember the exact list, but something to do with "What Jumpships have you jumped from"). I know you apologized to your flame, but just check out everything he has to say.

Billy
"Son, you've got a panty on yer head!"


cobaltdan  (D License)

Aug 19, 2001, 5:42 PM
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hi criss,

yes, we will be making larger patterns hopefully for next season. i am waiting for our laser cutter. cutting the pattern templates is very time consuming and the demand for very large cobalts has been quite low.

the alpha/impulse/space airfoil, planform even line trim is identical to the cobalt. improvements have been made to improve and increase the stress pattern on the top skin. this lowers the span wise distortion, increasing lift and efficiency. construction improvements are also present ie. 18 top skin panels, etc.

please keep an open mind. consider that we have a 6 year track record with these canopies specifically to newbies and if you are interested, contact us or send me your information and we can arrange for you to try a lightly loaded cobalt.

sincerely,

dan
atair




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