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What is the wingsuit mod for containers?

 

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Butters  (C 37840)

Dec 23, 2008, 8:06 PM
Post #51 of 107 (1362 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Then give people known facts, instead of your own fancy theory, which is nothing more than taking a NORMAL HORSESHOE malfunction (with method of pulling and/or pin-tension being the most likely cause) and coming up with some non-reality based reason why cut corners should be causing these...

This is not my theory and I am not talking about a horseshoe mal, I am talking about a potential draw back to dynamic corners vs opened or cut corners. The linked article references the importance of friction staging which is relevant to the original topic.

I am guessing its cold where you are right nowTongue

Wouldn't using friction to stage your deployment be a bad idea ... after all, wouldn't the point(s) of friction change based on the overall fit of the canopy in the deployment bag and the fit of the harness/container on the individual thus resulting in unintended point(s) of friction would could lead to malfunctions?


The111  (D 29246)

Dec 23, 2008, 9:03 PM
Post #52 of 107 (1349 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You wanted to know which manufacturer. As I stated it references friction staging.

Yes, and it references it in a completely irrelevant context, that of what is apparently a pullout deployment system.

You have yet to answer the question: in a throwout deployment system, how can the bag overtake the inflated pilot chute (the very thing which is pulling it out)? I doubt you will.


The111  (D 29246)

Dec 23, 2008, 9:12 PM
Post #53 of 107 (1347 views)
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Re: [mccordia] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But if thats a dig at needing to jump more and post less

Nothing more ironic than the following exchange:

Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: True!
Guy 2: False!
Guy 1: Hey! Don't you have anything better to do than argue with me all day?

A more perfect definition of irony may not exist.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 23, 2008, 9:29 PM
Post #54 of 107 (1345 views)
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Re: [The111] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You have yet to answer the question: in a throwout deployment system, how can the bag overtake the inflated pilot chute (the very thing which is pulling it out)? I doubt you will.

You are correct. Because I have the feeling that even if I explained it to you, you would refute its veracity. Therefore, I will e-mail John Sherman for you and have him explain it in detail. When I receive a reply I will post it here.


yuri_base

Dec 23, 2008, 9:31 PM
Post #55 of 107 (1343 views)
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Re: [mccordia] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's amazing how much noise f**ckers can generate in no time from nothing. It must be the winter deprivation from all that touching and kissing during the summer flocking. Tongue

Scott is talking about a very rare, but possible situation when immediately after extracting the pin the PC gets sucked back into the burble and bridle goes lump. While the PC is making its mind in the burble, a little friction holding D-bag in place would definitely not hurt. In BASE, there's no friction holding the canopy in place, corners or not; instead, a larger PC (36-38") is used to mitigate the chance of it getting sucked into the burble.

Rare? Yes. Possible? You don't want to find out. Wink


The111  (D 29246)

Dec 23, 2008, 9:39 PM
Post #56 of 107 (1337 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You have yet to answer the question: in a throwout deployment system, how can the bag overtake the inflated pilot chute (the very thing which is pulling it out)? I doubt you will.

You are correct. Because I have the feeling that even if I explained it to you, you would refute its veracity.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/refute

So you won't explain yourself because you think I will prove you wrong? In other words, you think you are wrong?

Also, other people were asking you the same question before I entered the thread, so don't blame it on me. Laugh


mccordia  (D 94775)

Dec 23, 2008, 9:56 PM
Post #57 of 107 (1329 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You are correct. Because I have the feeling that even if I explained it to you, you would refute its veracity. Therefore, I will e-mail John Sherman for you and have him explain it in detail. When I receive a reply I will post it here.

So now its one rigger explaining it in detail...what happened to 'any rigger' being able to explain it?Wink

As (WOULD a NORMAL/ 1 on 1 /standard horseshoe situation ever happen) too small a pilotchute, too short a bridle, bad pull/throw, too wide a loop, hanging onto a pilotchute too long etc etc. stilll seem like more likely culprit/causes for ANY type of malfunction in this direction.

And PLEASE do (again) provide us with a single case or even remotely vague description on when and what happened. As so far it all sounds a bit to internet-y..


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 23, 2008, 11:19 PM
Post #58 of 107 (1320 views)
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Re: [the 111 and mccordia] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

As I stated above, I will provide you an explanation from said H/C manufacturer as soon as I have a response. If you choose to agree/believe/accept the explanation given is up to you. Personally, I could care less what either of you choose to believe, I am providing information as I have heard it first hand from said H/C manufacturer for everyones edification.


As the saying goes, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

refute |riˈfyoōt|
verb [ trans. ]
deny or contradict (a statement or accusation) : a spokesman totally refuted the allegation of bias.


Until then, Happy Holidays.Smile


mccordia  (D 94775)

Dec 23, 2008, 11:47 PM
Post #59 of 107 (1317 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ive also heard many a rigger state things.

Id be more interested in a SINGLE account of sayd occurance....accident report...video?

A pilotchute at bridle-stretch, pulling a pin, and somehow having that Dbag jump past the actual force which is pulling it out of the container in the first place..

Quote:
As the saying goes, You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Sayd the messiah of wingsuit flying..Wink


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Dec 23, 2008, 11:57 PM
Post #60 of 107 (1310 views)
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Re: [mccordia] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Sayd the messiah of wingsuit flying..

From your lips, not mine. But I appreciate your vote of confidence.


scottygofast  (D 28686)

Dec 24, 2008, 9:06 AM
Post #61 of 107 (1289 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You have yet to answer the question: in a throwout deployment system, how can the bag overtake the inflated pilot chute (the very thing which is pulling it out)? I doubt you will.

You are correct. Because I have the feeling that even if I explained it to you, you would refute its veracity. Therefore, I will e-mail John Sherman for you and have him explain it in detail. When I receive a reply I will post it here.


WOW~ Let me start by saying Howdy and Happy holidays to everyone. that being said~ Damn I have to read this stuff more often, It is truly entertaining. Thanks for bringing this up skittles, this is an important subject seeing how many new people wingsuiting is generating these days and the need for us all to understand the importance of what gear we choose to fly. theres two images attached to this post. the first is a photo of my oddesy that has over 2000 wingsuit skydives on it. it has full dynamic corners, and a 10 foot bridle, thats ten feet from pin to pilotchute~. the second is of a brand new Wings with the factory dynamic corners on it that is only a month old. I can say from personal experience that I loved my corners on my oddesy. it felt like all i had to do was flinch a butt cheek and it would come out of the bag. no hesitation. hell ive flown in full flight with my pilot chute in my hand for over 10 seconds to avoid traffic after I started my deployment procdure, and had to do this on more than one occasion; so Id say i have some experience with this. I have also jumped a standard rig with no cut corners and a standard pilot chute in a new SM1, not at all recommended by the way, so listen up~

I see no way, physically possible, both in experience as well as theoretically, (unless your loop is as loose as a whore at a mexican shoe show) that bridle pressure alone can pull out a pin. if your bridle is longer than standard, a minimum of 8', the worst case scenario is that you have to go head down to get enough drag to remove the pilot chute from the burble. once the pilot chute clears the burble and pulls the pin, the resistance on the pilot chute immediately is cut by a factor of ten, for the moment until the bridle becomes taught again and begins to pull the bag out of the container. that momentary reduction in pressure on the pilot chute allows its relative speed to you to increase dramatically, thus showing the pilot chutes inability to "Fall" back into the burble. it is simply physics. it doesnt lie. hell Matt has a photo on the cover of a physics book, so if thats not evidence enough that we are bound by the laws of such, then i dont know what to tell you. it would defy the laws of physics for such a thing to happen. Thats enough on that.

I will say that full dynamic corners can lend itself to some horrible and non jumpable pack jobs from packers.. I will also post a photo on here of that~ Short of that, Ill tell you what my new Icon, which is on its way will have. Full dynamic corners, and a 12 foot pin to pilot chute bridle. When I was jumping a standard rig with a standard pilot chute and was getting a consistant 6-8 second pilot chute in tow, at witch point I would go head down to provide enough pressure on the pilot chute while decreasing the size of my burble to the smallest possible size, which did get the pilot chute out of the burble, but provided for an uncomfortable opening. once again, i dont recommend anyone attempt this, im just saying this is how i best found to handle this situation for me in those 4 circumstances. before the next jump on that rig I had the corners cut by a rigger, and there might still be 1/8" still sewn on the corners, and voiala! no problem, even with a standard bridle. im now jumping the same rig with a 12' pilot chute and its wonderful.

These are just my thoughts. feel free to try to tell me Im wrong.. Happy ChristmaHanaQuanzica to all, and to all a good jump~

Ill post the pics of my oddesy dynamic corners and the new wings corners, as well as a pic of the new Icon corners (Justin's) as soon as I get them, people at DZs will be sending them soon~ thanks!

and the Jump door for the 172 will hopefully be brought by santa~ anyone know where someones got one layin around? :P And mabye a Twinke from Spot? :P


(This post was edited by scottygofast on Dec 24, 2008, 9:15 AM)
Attachments: badpackjob.jpg (99.3 KB)


Butters  (C 37840)

Dec 24, 2008, 9:20 AM
Post #62 of 107 (1279 views)
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Re: [scottygofast] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's also possible that an individual could constrain the bridle in the pilot chute causing the pin to be pulled when the pilot chute is extracted ...

PS: While I understand you have a large burble (due to your large wings) I'm wondering why (shape of your wings, deploying in full flight, weak throw, etc...) your pilot chute is getting caught in your burble so often. Also, do you believe it's better to use a bridle longer than 9' instead of using a bridle that is 9' and a larger pilot chute?


mccordia  (D 94775)

Dec 24, 2008, 9:23 AM
Post #63 of 107 (1277 views)
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Re: [scottygofast] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fully agree with the added care (and for some people cursing) in getting a packjob to look good(and be safe) if you're not that experienced a packer.

For most people, a normal rig and just placing the bag grommit2pin (upright) will be all the costumizing they ever need to do for wingsuit flying.

Its only for the freaks that never take the wingsuit off, or for people truly experiencing big hesitations at pulltime that id recommend getting a wingsuit specific rig with regards to open corners.

Having a nice long bridle, and a pilotchute the size of a house will do much more for your openings than the open corners will..


yeyo  (D 32048)

Dec 24, 2008, 9:44 AM
Post #64 of 107 (1267 views)
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Re: [scottygofast] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
im now jumping the same rig with a 12' pilot chute and its wonderful.

holy crap scotty! how u fold that into the boc??!!Pirate


scottygofast  (D 28686)

Dec 24, 2008, 9:55 AM
Post #65 of 107 (1259 views)
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Re: [Butters] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's also possible that an individual could constrain the bridle in the pilot chute causing the pin to be pulled when the pilot chute is extracted ...

PS: While I understand you have a large burble (due to your large wings) I'm wondering why (shape of your wings, deploying in full flight, weak throw, etc...) your pilot chute is getting caught in your burble so often. Also, do you believe it's better to use a bridle longer than 9' instead of using a bridle that is 9' and a larger pilot chute?


Only if you grab a handful of pilot chute instead of just your hackey...


scottygofast  (D 28686)

Dec 24, 2008, 9:59 AM
Post #66 of 107 (1253 views)
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Re: [mccordia] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Its only for the freaks that never take the wingsuit off, or for people truly experiencing big hesitations at pulltime that id recommend getting a wingsuit specific rig with regards to open corners.

Having a nice long bridle, and a pilotchute the size of a house will do much more for your openings than the open corners will..

very true, I am a freak.. :P and rarely remove the wingsuit, even when freeflying.. :P you dont need everything Im using, im just kinda fat and fly a really big suit, with a bunch of shit on my head... so go with the above unless your fat like me~

and yeyo~ its kinda funny to see actually... even funnier to see me try to get to the end of the pilot chute when i land to pick it up~ :P


(This post was edited by scottygofast on Dec 24, 2008, 10:00 AM)


QuietStorm  (D 28724)

Dec 24, 2008, 10:07 AM
Post #67 of 107 (1242 views)
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Re: [DSE] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow:

Lots of ink shed on this one.

Around three years ago I had Sandy Reid of R/I completely open up the bottom corners of my Talon FS and I went to a 9 FT bridle. I did this after reading about this modification in Scott Campos's book; Wingsuits in Motion.

At the time we just completely opened up the bottom corners....not much discussions like now about how much. Packed lines up for hundreds of wingsuit jumps in this configuration.

Jumped this set up belly fly too. No opening or sequencing issues at all.

With the bottom corners completely opened up I have to stuff the bottom flap fabric underneath the left and right side flaps as I close up the container....kind of a nuisance but I got used to it.

Had this done to my second Talon FS. Both rigs have Spectre 170's packed lines up with 9FT bridles and 33" pilot chutes. One rig is on a Blade and the other on a SM1.

No opening issues on either set up.

Wife jumps a Standard Javelin set up, lines packed down, with no container modification, standard length bridle and 27" pilot chute hooked up to a Tony Intro. No opening issues with this set up.

....Just our observations and experience.

Happy Holidays to All and to All a Good Flight !


Butters  (C 37840)

Dec 24, 2008, 10:39 AM
Post #68 of 107 (1221 views)
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Re: [scottygofast] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Only if you grab a handful of pilot chute instead of just your hackey...

Well, if we're discussing the deployment bag rising above the bridle and or pilot chute than I don't think discussing grabbing more than the handle is out of order (I was actually thinking of a poorly packed pilot chute in which the excess bridle is folded into the pilot chute in such a way that it becomes constrained) ...

Edit: Another question, when your pilot chute gets caught in your burble do you attempt to collapse your wings and shake it like a Polaroid picture before going head down?


(This post was edited by Butters on Dec 24, 2008, 11:05 AM)


Butters  (C 37840)

Dec 24, 2008, 10:41 AM
Post #69 of 107 (1218 views)
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Re: [mccordia] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Its only for the freaks that never take the wingsuit off ...

For a second I thought I was a freak but I take off my wingsuit to go tracking. However, I deploy in a full track so ...


robibird  (D 404)

Dec 24, 2008, 11:04 AM
Post #70 of 107 (1203 views)
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What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Do I need to have the WS modifications before trying the WS?

NO!!!

Is it possible to use not modified skydiving rig for WS jumps?

Yes!
Without any problem. Important is to understand the mechanics of how the canopy goes out.
My recommendation to those who using normal -not modified rigs would be following:

After brake off , slow down the horizontal speed to minimum ( best is to kill it totally ) increase the vertical speed, acting and maintaining the body position as close as possible lake normal belly flyer.
Pull the PC and canopy will go out straight up.

That works super nice for all the canopies in all kind of rigs. Especially works super well for small elliptical canopies ( my case ... 82.5 FX , Radical 85, 95 )

Long bridle , short bridle, standard bridle or dynamic corners does not really matter at all..

How my pack job need to look or be?! Any differences?!

Not at all, pack as you always pack.

Dynamic corners:
Is there any benefit of heaving them on the rig?

Yes!
but this depends on the type of container and size of the canopy and the PC.
Bigger canopy is , less needs is to have the dynamic corners because the canopy itself is less sensitive on uneven line stretch or twisting....

BASE - totally differend story...
All the bast in N.Y. to all here...
Smile


scottygofast  (D 28686)

Dec 24, 2008, 11:19 AM
Post #71 of 107 (1194 views)
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Re: [Butters] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, I do... And Robi says it Very nicely~


Butters  (C 37840)

Dec 24, 2008, 11:25 AM
Post #72 of 107 (1187 views)
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Re: [scottygofast] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
And Robi says it Very nicely~

Yeah, when it comes to wingsuiting I often read his manuals and posts or watch his videos if I have a question. I'm working on a machine that will allow me to switch lives with him Devil ...


skittles_of_SDC  (B 31374)

Dec 24, 2008, 11:27 AM
Post #73 of 107 (1184 views)
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Re: [scottygofast] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for going in to detail. So what I'm getting from this thread is basically this:

A longer bridle (9' - 10'?) should be first priority.
A larger pilot chute should be priority two if necessary.
and dynamic/cut corners are a nice thing to have, get them if you can.

Am I accurate? If not feel free to put them in the order you see fit or add new ones if there are some of higher priority.


Butters  (C 37840)

Dec 24, 2008, 11:31 AM
Post #74 of 107 (1179 views)
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Re: [skittles_of_SDC] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thanks for going in to detail. So what I'm getting from this thread is basically this:

A longer bridle (9' - 10'?) should be first priority.
A larger pilot chute should be priority two if necessary.
and dynamic/cut corners are a nice thing to have, get them if you can.

Am I accurate? If not feel free to put them in the order you see fit or add new ones if there are some of higher priority.

A light handle (such as PVC tubing) with multiple attachment points is also recommended.


skittles_of_SDC  (B 31374)

Dec 24, 2008, 11:36 AM
Post #75 of 107 (1172 views)
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Re: [Butters] What is the wingsuit mod for containers? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Thanks for going in to detail. So what I'm getting from this thread is basically this:

A longer bridle (9' - 10'?) should be first priority.
A larger pilot chute should be priority two if necessary.
and dynamic/cut corners are a nice thing to have, get them if you can.

Am I accurate? If not feel free to put them in the order you see fit or add new ones if there are some of higher priority.

A light handle (such as PVC tubing) with multiple attachment points is also recommended.

I have a leather hackey. Too heavy?
Also would people recommend making the changes right away if I plan to do a lot of wingsuiting or can I wait until I eventually move up to the bigger suits?

Edit to add: where would you place the handle in terms of priorities?


(This post was edited by skittles_of_SDC on Dec 24, 2008, 11:41 AM)


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