Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks?

 

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AirWhore  (C License)

Nov 19, 2008, 10:19 AM
Post #1 of 97 (1992 views)
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Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? Can't Post

Since the reserve repack cycle is being raised to 180 days, an increase of 33%. Will riggers likewise increase their prices?

My logic is, if rigging is my income and the increase in the repack cycle effectively decreases workload, therefore income, I think I should increase my price per repack so my income doesn't decline any?



Thoughts?????


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 19, 2008, 10:29 AM
Post #2 of 97 (1971 views)
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Re: [AirWhore] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

By that logic car salesmen should be getting larger commissions as they are selling less cars.
No you should not be paid more for doing the same work (or be paid the same for doing less work, depending on how you look at it).


councilman24  (D 8631)

Nov 19, 2008, 10:35 AM
Post #3 of 97 (1961 views)
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Re: [AirWhore] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

If you search you will find long discussions about this. It's actually a 50% increase of the 120 days.

There have been varying opinions. Some say same work, same price. Others day lower demand should drive market price down. (only theoretical econimists like bill von propose this oneTongue). Others, 50% more values should mean more cost.

One jumper put it, " I budget x per year for repacks. I don't care if it's 3 or 2 for the same dollars.' (paraphrase).

When I've discussed it with others most felt that increasing their price 50% was perhaps too much but would take this opportunity to justify some increase.

Many pilot comments to the FAA complained about cost and that the 180 change would save them money. One specifically was a customer of mine. He never asked me whether the price would go up.Wink

I actually haven't decided yet.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 19, 2008, 10:36 AM
Post #4 of 97 (1960 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
By that logic car salesmen should be getting larger commissions as they are selling less cars.
No you should not be paid more for doing the same work (or be paid the same for doing less work, depending on how you look at it).

I agree. About the only argument I can throw in is "due to longer repack cycle the canopy will need to be inspected more closely, which will take more time". And that of course is pure bullshit.

Perhaps now, since there will be less repacks, the riggers will spend more time to make up for their income doing more "routine" things like kill line replacements, linesets, etc. This may actually turn out to be a benefit for the industry.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Nov 19, 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #5 of 97 (1914 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

My bet is that they will raise the price up a little. Logic is that you need it done twice a year so you are still saving money. Example from 50 to 60 instead of 75.

If you get three repacks in a year at 50 that is 150

If you get two pack jobs a year at 60 that is 120
So you are still saving money

I can see some of them trying to use this as a sales pitch

I agree that it should stay the same. They are still doing the same job as before just further apart


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Nov 19, 2008, 12:54 PM)


Premier NWFlyer  (D 29960)

Nov 19, 2008, 11:34 AM
Post #6 of 97 (1903 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you get four repacks in a year at 50 that is 200

Assuming no cutaways, you only need to get three repacks a year under the current rules. So your math doesn't work - same cost at 3x $50 or 2x $75.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Nov 19, 2008, 11:38 AM
Post #7 of 97 (1891 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you get four repacks in a year at 50 that is 200

Assuming no cutaways, you only need to get three repacks a year under the current rules. So your math doesn't work - same cost at 3x $50 or 2x $75.

oops brain fart!!!! Fixed it Wink


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 19, 2008, 12:30 PM
Post #8 of 97 (1851 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

This should be pretty interesting on an micro economic level.

The gut feeling of most people is that riggers will raise tehir costs since, per year, they would be making less if they charge the same.

But in theory, prices should come down. Demand will go down since, assuming the number of skydivers stays the same, the number of repacks would go down by, say 25% (33% less from lenghthening the cycle, but less then that since some will still be happening due to reserv activations). That is a very significant decrease in demand. It will be interesting to see the effects.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Nov 19, 2008, 12:49 PM
Post #9 of 97 (1840 views)
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Re: [Remster] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
This should be pretty interesting on an micro economic level.
Haven't you notice that USD lost some of its value?
Its a good reason to raise prices.


Premier likestojump  (D License)

Nov 19, 2008, 12:54 PM
Post #10 of 97 (1826 views)
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Re: [Remster] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

The problem is that you are assuming that demand for repacks is elastic. And it IS NOT. As repacks are REQUIRED, the demand itself will go down, but the elasticity won't change.

Like teh gasoline - though the prices in the US have doubled, the use has not been cut in half, and now, that the prices have the receded, the use has not doubled.


wildcard451  (D License)

Nov 19, 2008, 1:10 PM
Post #11 of 97 (1809 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

The job they are doing is the exact same.
The cost of doing said job, has not increased one bit with an extended repack cycle.
Any cost increase would be a complete crock of crap.

However, I do understand one's need to make a living, and an appropriate increase to maintain a level of income.

Sticky indeed. However, they kinda have the market cornered, as an in-date rig is required to keep jumping.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Nov 19, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #12 of 97 (1793 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The cost of doing said job, has not increased one bit with an extended repack cycle.

Not necessarily. Someone in the business has fixed costs amortized over the total pack jobs. Rent, utilities, association dues, continuing ed, etc. With the same customer base the cost per pack job has gone up when these fixed costs are considered.

And, customers are getting more value for in the repack. So you could argue that additional value showed be compensated for. The equal work for a repack is now 'worth more' to the jumper.

Still haven't decided what I'm doing.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 19, 2008, 1:32 PM
Post #13 of 97 (1776 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not necessarily. Someone in the business has fixed costs amortized over the total pack jobs. Rent, utilities, association dues, continuing ed, etc. With the same customer base the cost per pack job has gone up when these fixed costs are considered.

Agreed. I won't be upset if my rigger increases his rates. He still has gear to buy, rent to pay, etc.. as you have said. I want my rigger to be happy and well fed.


Premier Remster  (C License)

Nov 19, 2008, 2:01 PM
Post #14 of 97 (1744 views)
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Re: [likestojump] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The problem is that you are assuming that demand for repacks is elastic. And it IS NOT. As repacks are REQUIRED, the demand itself will go down, but the elasticity won't change.

Like teh gasoline - though the prices in the US have doubled, the use has not been cut in half, and now, that the prices have the receded, the use has not doubled.

Of course there is elasticity. But this only translates to how much of the drop in demand will translate in a drop in the price. Prices still SHOULD go down.

To use your gas analogy, when the price doubled, demand didnt half, but it did reduce.


sunshine  (D License)

Nov 19, 2008, 2:30 PM
Post #15 of 97 (1722 views)
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Re: [wildcard451] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
The job they are doing is the exact same.
The cost of doing said job, has not increased one bit with an extended repack cycle.
Any cost increase would be a complete crock of crap.

What about people in the "real world" that get raises every year even though they're still doing the same amount of work? Or the price of groceries/food going up. For example Pizza Hut recently raised the price of a pizza. I still get the same amount of pizza, but now it's $1 more.

So it's ok for the rest of the world to raise prices but not riggers...interesting....


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Nov 19, 2008, 2:57 PM
Post #16 of 97 (1711 views)
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Re: [sunshine] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
The job they are doing is the exact same.
The cost of doing said job, has not increased one bit with an extended repack cycle.
Any cost increase would be a complete crock of crap.

What about people in the "real world" that get raises every year even though they're still doing the same amount of work? Or the price of groceries/food going up. For example Pizza Hut recently raised the price of a pizza. I still get the same amount of pizza, but now it's $1 more.

So it's ok for the rest of the world to raise prices but not riggers...interesting....


You are talking about inflation. That is totally different.

The price of gas when I was a kid was .25. Now its over $2.00
As for the price for a repack. 20 years ago it was a lot cheaper then, than it is now

Of course the consumer will always pay the price.

If it cost more for riggers to their job I would expect them to raise their price. Just like every DZ I know raising their prices this year.

Its not costing them more to pack less. Its that they are working less so they will be making less. There is a difference


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Nov 19, 2008, 3:10 PM)


hackish  (No License)

Nov 19, 2008, 3:11 PM
Post #17 of 97 (1697 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
The job they are doing is the exact same.
The cost of doing said job, has not increased one bit with an extended repack cycle.
Any cost increase would be a complete crock of crap.

What about people in the "real world" that get raises every year even though they're still doing the same amount of work? Or the price of groceries/food going up. For example Pizza Hut recently raised the price of a pizza. I still get the same amount of pizza, but now it's $1 more.

So it's ok for the rest of the world to raise prices but not riggers...interesting....


You are talking about inflation. That is totally different.

The price of gas when I was a kid was .25. Now its over $2.00
As for the price for a repack 20 years ago was a lot cheaper then it is now

Of course the consumer will always pay the price.

If it cost more for riggers to their job I would expect them to raise their price. Just like every DZ I know raising their prices this year.

Its not costing them more to pack less. Its that they are working less so they will be making less. There is a difference

Inflation may be totally different but it is related. The $50 cost for repacks has been the same for how many years? It's hard for riggers to put up prices because the rigger down the street may not and skydivers being cost conscious folk may just go there instead.

I don't feel that the $65CAD we get for a repack in Canada is a good wage considering how long it takes to do a repack without cutting any corners. However the pay is not my primary reason for doing a repack. I really appreciate it when a TM gives me 2 high altitude jump tickets in exchange for services.

-Michael


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 19, 2008, 3:25 PM
Post #18 of 97 (1682 views)
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Re: [AirWhore] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

My logic is, if rigging is my income and the increase in the repack cycle effectively decreases workload, therefore income, I think I should increase my price per repack so my income doesn't decline any?

Thoughts?????
You logic is flawed.
a repack is a service, you get paid to carry out a service, you are paid for time on job and materials used. not for how oftn you do said job.


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 19, 2008, 3:32 PM
Post #19 of 97 (1679 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
you get paid to carry out a service, you are paid for time on job and materials used.

And as stated before... materials used include the cost of the loft. If the rigger's rent / mortage haven't decreased and his volume of work have decreased, why is it unfair for the rigger to raise his rates?

The bills are still there. This isn't MacDonalds, dude.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 19, 2008, 3:33 PM
Post #20 of 97 (1677 views)
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Re: [councilman24] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

And, customers are getting more value for in the repack. So you could argue that additional value showed be compensated for. The equal work for a repack is now 'worth more' to the jumper.

Still haven't decided what I'm doing.
you might be getting more value but it has nothing to do with the riggers.
They didnt afford you the extra value the FAA did.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 19, 2008, 3:36 PM
Post #21 of 97 (1674 views)
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Re: [labrys] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
you get paid to carry out a service, you are paid for time on job and materials used.

And as stated before... materials used include the cost of the loft. If the rigger's rent / mortage haven't decreased and his volume of work have decreased, why is it unfair for the rigger to raise his rates?

The bills are still there. This isn't MacDonalds, dude.
I have no issue with people raising proces as the cost of doing bussiness increases.
But if you have a lean year in a company (ie less bussiness) you dont put your prices UP in the hopes of attracting more customers.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Nov 19, 2008, 3:36 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Nov 19, 2008, 3:43 PM
Post #22 of 97 (1662 views)
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Re: [Squeak] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have no issue with people raising proces as the cost od doing bussiness increases.
But if you have a lean year in a company (ie less bussiness) you dont put your prices UP in the hopes of attracting more customers.

That idea might work in a really competitive market environment. That isn't the norm in skydiving. Changing the repack cycle isn't a "lean year" it's a permanent change.

Look... your experience could be different and I don't mean to speak for everyone, but I know that my rigger counts change to see if a trip out for dinner or a movie is in the picture.

If he thinks that he needs to charge more for a repack because his volume is down I'll pay.


Squeak  (E 1313)

Nov 19, 2008, 4:10 PM
Post #23 of 97 (1638 views)
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Re: [labrys] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:

If he thinks that he needs to charge more for a repack because his volume is down I'll pay.

Like i said I dont care what people charge, but using the repack cycle to validate it is IMO bogus.

I go to my Rigger because the guy is ANAL and Meticulous. I pay $65 per repack and inspect, and i get exactly that a repack AND a full inspection. If he says Squeak I'm raising my prices to $75, I wont ask him why.
I'll pay the $75 because I value his work and Trust him with my life

Every time i have visited the states, i have had him repack my gear whether it was due or not. Because it helps reduce the chance of having to get it repacked there, by people i dont know, and consequently trust less.


(This post was edited by Squeak on Nov 19, 2008, 4:11 PM)


sunshine  (D License)

Nov 19, 2008, 4:36 PM
Post #24 of 97 (1619 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You are talking about inflation. That is totally different.

The price of gas when I was a kid was .25. Now its over $2.00
As for the price for a repack. 20 years ago it was a lot cheaper then, than it is now

Of course the consumer will always pay the price.

If it cost more for riggers to their job I would expect them to raise their price. Just like every DZ I know raising their prices this year.

Its not costing them more to pack less. Its that they are working less so they will be making less. There is a difference

You do realize a rigger has to use certain things when doing a repack. There is the replacement of the closing loop, the cleaning of the cables, new rubberbands (if he inspects & packs the main), the seal, seal thread. Guess what? the cost of the material to make the closing loop has gone up, the price of the lubricant for the cables has gone up, the price of seal thread has gone up, the price of seals has gone up....you catching on yet?

Skydiving in all aspects is expensive - deal with it or find a new sport.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Nov 19, 2008, 4:39 PM
Post #25 of 97 (1615 views)
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Re: [AirWhore] Will riggers raise thier prices on reserve repacks? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
My logic is, if rigging is my income and the increase in the repack cycle effectively decreases workload, therefore income, I think I should increase my price per repack so my income doesn't decline any?

You're right on the money with this one. Raise them to match the decrease in workload.

The jumpers opposed to an increase are forgetting that the physical work of the repack is only one part of the deal. The other part is you, as a rigger, maintaining your good standing with the FAA, and putting their equipment in compliance with the regs of the FAA. The current charge for a I&R covers both the labor and the legality.

When the legality changes, so does the price.

As a non-rigger I find two things hard to believe. The first is that riggers haven't seen this coming, and universally agreed to raise the prices 50% to cover their losses.

The second is that any jumper would have a problem with this. The jumpers position is improved greatly by this change. Less frequent pack jobs means less wear and tear on the reserve canopy, and the reserve container.

Additionally, you reduce the number of trips to your rigger, and the associated coordinating of schedules. Many jumpers in the northern states can now get by on one repack a year.

On top of it all, rigging is hard work that doesn't pay all that well. A vast majority of riggers are part timers, who fit it in between their day jobs, and the rest of their lives. The cost of getting a riggers ticket, then buying and maintaining a set of tools, a sewing machine, and some materials takes a loooong time to repay on part-time rigging work.

Suck it up fun jumpers. Your out-of-pocket cost will remain the same, and you will come out on top in terms of your time, and the value of your gear.

By the way - bitch up a storm about the price hike, and see what happens when you need the Sat night repack after a cutaway, or the Thurs night special to get you ready for the boogie after you 'forgot' to check your repack card.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Nov 19, 2008, 4:40 PM)


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