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Jumping jumbo jets

 

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Slight  (A 41739)

Jan 7, 2003, 7:53 PM
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Jumping jumbo jets Can't Post

Talking with some whuffo friends of mine over the holidays, I was asked: Can you jump out of jet airplanes? It came up that Dan Cooper aka D.B. Cooper had jumped a 727 at low speeds under 10 grand from the rear stairway of a 727.

Now I am not sure what would be so great about jumping out of a jetliner. It seems that you want to jump planes that fly as slow as is safely possible. The ideal airships for jumpers are balloons and helos. If it is altitude you want, you go with a C-130 as in Tac test 63-18.

Assuming you had somehow retrofitted the airplane to allow opening the door in flight, What are the problems with jumping a high speed jet aircraft? (wind speed, cost, oxygen...?)

And could you make a jump out of a damaged jet like UA flight 811?

(Please notice I have made no references to movies or fictional tv shows.)


DZBone  (D 14358)

Jan 7, 2003, 7:59 PM
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Re: [Slight] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Sure, done it.

They had a 727 that came to WFFC for a couple of years (cargo).

They removed the rear door, padded the hell out of the stairway, and flew near stall speed on jump run (all 3 of them).

Jumping out was a wicked blast! Like falling into a rushing river, plus a view of a jet falling away.

Great speed stars and other almost impossible RW!


(This post was edited by DZBone on Jan 7, 2003, 8:01 PM)


DZBone  (D 14358)

Jan 7, 2003, 8:01 PM
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Re: [DZBone] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Pics, from the WFFC Web site, I think...
Attachments: sat14_16.jpg (15.4 KB)
  sat14_18.jpg (14.2 KB)
  sat14_19.jpg (10.2 KB)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jan 7, 2003, 8:11 PM
Post #4 of 27 (2767 views)
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Re: [Slight] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Assuming you had somehow retrofitted the airplane to allow opening the door in flight, What are the problems with jumping a high speed jet aircraft? (wind speed, cost, oxygen...?)

no problems actually. You do need to slow it down for obvious reasons and if your above 18 grand you might want to consider having O2 for 30 minutes prior to take off and during ascent. Bail out bottles are prefered as hypoxia can come very quickly once you are off the A/C O2 and while in freefall.

Some jets just aren't condusive to jumping out of and the cost is pretty high...it is a jet after all. I think the biggest hinderance is availablity of the airframe and somone willing to let you jump out at the speed most jumpers are comfortable with. C-130s are cool to jump but 141s are the heat. Talk about a hill and a fast one at thatLaugh


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jan 7, 2003, 8:17 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Climb time in the 727 is almost 4000 feet a minute, but the issue is that they have to go way slower then that to actually fly a jumprun. I soooo wanna jump it. Tickets last year were 59 a jump if it showed.

And Otters and the like are ideal jump planes, Balloon are good for still air and you can't turn points out of those like you can an Otter.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Jan 7, 2003, 8:56 PM)


sinker

Jan 7, 2003, 8:53 PM
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Re: [DZBone] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

I bet the sound was incredible as you left those tri-jets! Deafening!


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 7, 2003, 9:08 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

>You do need to slow it down for obvious reasons and if your above 18 grand
>you might want to consider having O2 for 30 minutes prior to take off and
>during ascent.

We went to 23k for the 300-ways and just used O2 above 12k feet. Seemed to work OK.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 7, 2003, 9:15 PM
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Re: [Slight] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

I've jumped from the 727 10 times or so at Quincy. Most were low speed, a few were high speed (200kts or so.) The lower part of the rear airstair was removed. We went to 14k or so for all jumps.

BTW a certain DZO is currently considering buying a jet for such a purpose, perhaps leaving some of the seats in. That would be fun.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
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Jan 7, 2003, 9:26 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

>BTW a certain DZO

Do tell this DZO so we can all beg and plead with him/her...


Premier Remster  (C License)

Jan 8, 2003, 6:32 AM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Or you could jump an AN 72.....
http://www.bird.ch/...ns/An72/AN72P01.html Cool


nacmacfeegle  (D 11004)

Jan 8, 2003, 6:35 AM
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Re: [Remster] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

"Or you could jump an AN 72....."

yay!
How is Canada treating you Remi?


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jan 8, 2003, 4:08 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>You do need to slow it down for obvious reasons and if your above 18 grand
>you might want to consider having O2 for 30 minutes prior to take off and
>during ascent.

We went to 23k for the 300-ways and just used O2 above 12k feet. Seemed to work OK.


I'm constantly amazed at how the skydiving community frequently makes high altitude jumps fully knowing that flight above 15 k should be supplimented with O2. If a planned ascent is going to be above 18000 it should begin with 30 minutes of 100% uninterupted O2 to saturate the blood and remove the nitrogen, before taking off. The longer one is exposed at altitudde with out O2, especially above 15k, the greater risk of hypoxia sets in. Having taken a chamber ride several times I have seen first hand how altitude effects people differently. Some are able to deal with altitude better than others and some are capable of recognizing the signs of hypoxia, others just outright pass out until their O2 mask is placed back on.

So while it is common place in the civilian skydiving community to go anywhere from 15 up to 25k with little or no O2 prior to take off and while in freefall, it's not a gamble worth taking IMO, especially if you've never been in a chamber and don't know what your personal warning symptoms of hypoxia are. Most just shrug and say so what, which is why there is the saying "ignorance is bliss". Personally, if I'm on a civilian high altitude jump the O2 mask is on my face from the moment I sit down up until I'm exiting the A/C. To not keep a mask on is just plain stupid, your throwing the dice IMO.


Shark  (D 24499)

Jan 8, 2003, 5:24 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

I concur. On a related note, I also used to believe the the chamber was to see who could go the longest without passing out. What happend, and what you thought happend while off O2 could, and probably was very different.


Premier Tonto  (D 515)
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Jan 8, 2003, 11:37 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right there.

Our DZ is 5500 agl (Johannesberg, SA) We jump a Pilatus Porter from 11 AGL, and it takes us about 13 min to get there. That's 16500 ASL. We don't use O2, as living at 5500 we've aclimatised to that altitude. When we get visiting jumpers up from the coast, we encourage them to use 02 on the climb. Last year we had 3 people pass out, sleep, whatever you'd like to call it, in the plane, and were unable to wake them for exit. We just stick a mask on them and belt them in. They wake up on decent.

We're fragile creatures. Having rock climbed and hiked to 20 000ft, and watched young, fit, strong people throwing up with altitude sickness, and understanding hypoxia, hape and hace, we should be more careful.

This is a silent killer, as even if you're consious, poor judgement abounds.

t


freakyrat  (D 12700)

Jan 9, 2003, 7:08 AM
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Re: [sinker] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

When Don Kirlin opened the door leading to the removed stairway the sound of that center engine was really LOUD. Exit was like getting sucked out. It was nice making a speed star. We made an SCR for a jumper and me and him and his brother just dogpiled on top of each other on exit and formed a base just below the plane. The dive was really cool after that with bodies suddenly tracking up to us and some diving down we had a 13 way with one out and when we went thru a cloud layer that had moved over the airport we were right over the Quincy terminal building. The spot couldn't have been better. It is still one of the coolest skydives i've made. I hope Don can finally secure one for us again so as to give some of you folks who haven't jumped it an experience.

Chris


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 9, 2003, 9:01 AM
Post #16 of 27 (2445 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

>If a planned ascent is going to be above 18000 it should begin with
> 30 minutes of 100% uninterupted O2 to saturate the blood and
> remove the nitrogen, before taking off.

Reduction of N2 levels in your blood is simply not necessary up to about 25K. I have never even _heard_ of a skydiver getting decompression sickness, even on the Mike Mullins loads that have incredible climb rates and often go to 25K (with some pleading.)

In addition, someone a while back (Tony Domenico?) did some tests with a pulse oximeter, and measured levels were so close to 100% on O2, even at 20K, that the whole prebreathing thing seems overkill. He went off O2, the levels dropped. He went back on, and O2 sats were back near 100% within a few minutes. This makes sense based on the amount of oxygen you actually carry in your blood and the relative PPO2 levels he was seeing.

>So while it is common place in the civilian skydiving community to go
> anywhere from 15 up to 25k with little or no O2 prior to take off and
> while in freefall, it's not a gamble worth taking IMO.

That is, fortunately, a decision each skydiver can make on their own. However, you have to make that decision on the ground; using a mask "from the moment you sit down" until exit does little good if the oxygen is off, and most places do not turn on O2 until 10-12K. If it really worries you, portable oxygen kits are available and can even be attached to some helmets (like the A3) for use in freefall.


dreamsville  (D 25528)

Jan 9, 2003, 9:10 AM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree, although we get away with it pretty handily when we jump the fast otters up to 16k. We're there and out the door practically in no time.Laugh Granted, one must be careful should there be go-arounds.

Harry


(This post was edited by dreamsville on Jan 9, 2003, 9:11 AM)


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jan 9, 2003, 9:34 AM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Reduction of N2 levels in your blood is simply not necessary up to about 25K. I have never even _heard_ of a skydiver getting decompression sickness, even on the Mike Mullins loads that have incredible climb rates and often go to 25K (with some pleading.)

Then you have never met Ron Plunkett, my former roommate who worked as an MFFI at Yuma until he bent and was permanantly grounded. He is registered on dropzone.com as "bodie".


Quote:
That is, fortunately, a decision each skydiver can make on their own. However, you have to make that decision on the ground; using a mask "from the moment you sit down" until exit does little good if the oxygen is off, and most places do not turn on O2 until 10-12K. If it really worries you, portable oxygen kits are available and can even be attached to some helmets (like the A3) for use in freefall.

Well, I doubt Scott is too worried about it in his work capacity in Northern Virginia, as they follow MFF protocols. As to what a person can "get away with", that is very subjective. Just because Tony D's tests proved one thing in his case, it does not mean that the same results would occur for a lot of the fat, out of shape slobs I typically see on many "pay for the priviledge" big-ways. Personally, I don't have any problem going up into the 20's without o2. Then again, I lived at altitude for nearly eight years and have an incredible tolerance for alcohol. I am the idiot who is always the last to re-mask during chamber rides. Still, as an MFFJM, I always keep a keen eye out for others when I am on civilian high altitude jumps. You will wouldn't be caught sleeping above 12,999 if I am on the plane with you. Hell, 16k is too high for many people. My dad (a former MFFJM as well) nearly passed out on jump run at the last Quincy because someone thought it would be nice to get the extra altitude. There was, of course, no supplimental oxygen onboard the CASA in question.

My point is that high altitude jumps are not to be taken lightly. While the highly trained athlete may be able to sustain him or herself under those rarified conditions, the great majority of other skydivers will just "follow the leader" unless they are warned of potential consequences. I too have seen people passed out on airplanes with no o2 available and I was not impressed by the risk analysis checks; something I have lived with every day for the past decade of my military service.

Chuck


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:48 AM
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Re: [SkymonkeyONE] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

>Then you have never met Ron Plunkett, my former roommate who
> worked as an MFFI at Yuma until he bent and was permanantly
> grounded. He is registered on dropzone.com as "bodie".

He went to 25K on oxygen and got decompression sickness? Wow. Was it on a very fast climbing aircraft?

>Just because Tony D's tests proved one thing in his case, it does not
> mean that the same results would occur for a lot of the fat, out of
> shape slobs I typically see on many "pay for the priviledge" big
>-ways.

I agree; heck, with someone with lung disease, 5000 feet without O2 may be too high. Experience seems to be, though, that generally jumpers who can go to 13K without O2 can go above 12K with O2. This is supported by physiology i.e. the PPO2 is actually higher at 23K with oxygen than it is at sea level without.

Out of the 330 or so people on the recent record, no one had serious problems with oxygen at 23K other than mechanical malfunctions (i.e. one plane lost O2 for two minutes before exit, and there were several cases of hypoxia.)

>Hell, 16k is too high for many people.

Even 12K can be too high, depending how long you're up there. I've had problems at 13K because we've had to loiter for 20 minutes, but have gone to 17K MSL at Lost Prairie without O2 and been fine.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Jan 9, 2003, 5:35 PM
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Re: [billvon] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Billvon:
Chuck pretty much summed it up. Not feeling like getting into a bandwidth hogging debate I will say this. I, nor Chuck, just pull this shit out of our ass, it's been studied extensively and is backed up with tons of proof from people with 20 lb heads. People get away with it every day with no negative side effects, that doesn't make it right. I've heard of people who smoked, drank and ate bad and lived to be 100, that doesn't mean I'm gonna follow suit.

I'll wager that out of the 300 way jump there are only a handful of people who have ever been in a chamber and even fewer who could tell you what the symptoms of hypoxia are and what their personal symptoms are. As far as being worried goes, I know what the risks are and I know my symptoms. It's the other people who have no clue that worry me because they are the ones that will probablly be sitting in the plane next to me or even flying it.


Zenister  (A 42)

Jan 9, 2003, 6:40 PM
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Re: [Shark] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What happend, and what you thought happend while off O2 could, and probably was very different.

oh yeah, i still have the sheet of "signatures" i did during mine..strange how the last 15 or so somehow turned into strange wiggley lines after 19k or so..


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Jan 9, 2003, 10:50 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

>I'll wager that out of the 300 way jump there are only a handful of people
>who have ever been in a chamber . . .

I agree.

>and even fewer who could tell you what the symptoms of hypoxia are and what
> their personal symptoms are.

Oh, I know at least 40 who experienced it firsthand in a real skydiving environment, rather than in a simulated skydive in a chamber. While chamber rides are great, and tell you a lot about your own reactions to hypoxia, it's not quite the same as being hypoxic on a skydive. Your oxygen demands are a lot greater during heavy exertion (like, say, being front float.)

>It's the other people who have no clue that worry me because they are the ones
> that will probablly be sitting in the plane next to me or even flying it.

Fortunately, each skydiver can choose who they jump with, and under which conditions. If someone feels more comfortable jumping with people who have been in a chamber, or prefer to remain below 12K without prebreathing oxygen, they can do that.


keskeie  (D 26254)

Jan 10, 2003, 3:27 PM
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Re: [PhreeZone] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't think anyone answered your question.....
It's the Conatsers that own PERRIS VALLEY SKYDIVING that have plans to buy a DC-9, I believe.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Jan 10, 2003, 3:30 PM
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Re: [keskeie] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

Yup. The numbers I heard floating around was roughly $350,00. I imagine the cost of the runway upgrades will probably come close to that!

(Hiya Kathy!)

_Am


rigging65  (D 21921)

Jan 10, 2003, 3:40 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Jumping jumbo jets [In reply to] Can't Post

We do 30K jumps twice a year out here (SkyDance SkyDiving, Davis CA) and have full pressure Oxygen on for 1 hour prior to take off to reduce the Nitrogen in your blood. Caravan ride takes about 45-55 minutes.

We've been doing it for some years now, it's great fun. Requires a med. cert and a chamber ride...both of which are great to have anyway. Information is generally available on their website www.skydance.net


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