Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
"Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's

 


sberkovitz  (B 6178)

Nov 15, 2008, 3:28 PM
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"Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's Can't Post

I'm just starting to spec out what will be my first set of gear and I've noticed a lot of containers mention that they are "Cypress ready." Is there something specific to the container design that would only permit a Cypress and not another brand of AAD, or is this a more generic term for "AAD ready"?

Thanks.


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Nov 15, 2008, 3:49 PM
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Re: [sberkovitz] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

It is AAD ready.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Nov 16, 2008, 3:06 PM
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Re: [sberkovitz] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

Cypres ready means it will accept a Cypres but between you and me and a lot of people, it will accept a Vigil I or II and an Argus as well since the AAD pocket in the reserve container is made of Spandex. That means also that the fabric channels both for the display window and the cutter are installed. The display window and the cutter are very similar for Cypres, Vigil and Argus. However Airtec (Cypres manufacturer) pretends that you must put a Cypres in a Cypres pocket but nobody (with a head on the shoulders) believes that. Why it is like that? For many years Cypres was virtually alone on the market and Airtec was providing AAD reserve pockets free to manufacturers who put the tag "Cypres ready" on their rigs. 5 years ago came the Vigil which was installed in Cypres pocket at the beginning. Now Vigil has its own pocket, washer and closing loop cord. I haven't seen any Argus pockets so far but I am pretty sure they exist. I believe the Astra can fit too in a "Cypres ready" rig but it will require additional installation on the right main lift web for the pressure sensor and switch box.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Nov 16, 2008, 3:35 PM
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Re: [erdnarob] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

>However Airtec (Cypres manufacturer) pretends that you must put a Cypres in
>a Cypres pocket but nobody (with a head on the shoulders) believes that. Why it is
>like that?

Because Airtec does not want to get sued when a Vigil or Argus has a problem, causes an injury or death - and the lawyers for the deceased finds that a component of the system was made by Airtec.


sberkovitz  (B 6178)

Nov 16, 2008, 6:49 PM
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Re: [billvon] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks all - thats the info I was looking for.. I'd like to get a Vigil but wanted to make sure it'll work with a Cypress ready container.

Thanks again.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Nov 17, 2008, 5:47 AM
Post #6 of 15 (1198 views)
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Re: [sberkovitz] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

You can put a Vigil in a rig with Cypres components. Air Tec doesn't want you to but they haven't figured out a way to stop it legally. But you cannot put a Cypres in a rig with Vigil components. AirTec can stop that.

Some rigs have/will have generic components. Cypres in them is still up in the air. I heard third hand that Airtec has agreed but last I knew personally they haven't.

They may respond.


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Nov 17, 2008, 10:30 AM
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Re: [erdnarob] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

"... I believe the Astra can fit too in a "Cypres ready" rig but it will require additional installation on the right main lift web for the pressure sensor and switch box."

.......................................................................

Yes and no.

ASTRA battery box and cables fit into standard Cypres or Vigil pockets, however, the control head is too bit fit into Cypres windows.
FXC recommends routing the control head and cable over the shoulder and tacking it - top the shoulder pad - below the 3-ring.
When we tried this with Cypres 1, we suffered too many broken cables.
Even though ASTRA cables are tougher, I am still reluctant to route ASTRA cables over the shoulder.

On most rigs, this is easily solved by hand tacking the control head under the reserve pin cover (original position for Cypres control head).
The huge ASTRA control head only becomes a problem when the rig only has a Cypres window in the middle of the back pad.

Suggestions?


JerryBaumchen  (D 1543)

Nov 17, 2008, 11:34 AM
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Re: [councilman24] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi Terry,

Quote:
But you cannot put a Cypres in a rig with Vigil components. AirTec can stop that.

I try to keep up with this ongoing battle but will never say that I know it all.

So how can AirTec stop it? Just asking, not arguing.

JerryBaumchen

PS) It is my understanding the FAA only says something regarding the maintenance of the unit(s).


councilman24  (D 8631)

Nov 18, 2008, 5:49 AM
Post #9 of 15 (1061 views)
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Re: [JerryBaumchen] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

Between Part 105

"(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device."

and AC-105

"Skydivers who use an AAD on their reserve/auxiliary parachute should ensure that the
installation of such a device has been approved by the parachute manufacturer
or the FAA (see paragraph 8). The FAA does not approve AAD's. They do
approve ttie installation which is submitted with the manufacturer's TSO
paperwork. The manufacturer's instructions for installation should be
followed.
The installation of an AAD to a TSO or military specification (MILSPEC)-
approved parachute constitutes a major alteration to that parachute. A -
jumper who uses any type of AAD should be aware of its level of reliability
and become fully proficient with the device. A prejump check should be made. .
for proper setting, arming, and operational reliability to ensure proper
functioning of the AAD. When the situation requires use of the reserve
parachute, the jumper should always manually pull the reserve/auxiliary
ripcord even when using an AAD."

Airtec believes they can madate under US regs that they go into their pocket and cutter elastic. They maintain that it is an entire system that includes the soft parts. You can argue the meaning of "maintained" but I'm not willing to put one in an Vigil pocket Airtec says not to.

The bolded part above can be taken to refer to the AAD manufacturer or the parachute manufacturer referred to two sentences above. But if Airtec mandates their pocket and cutter elastic, it's tough for a manufacturer to disagree.

But, several rig manufacturers told me that they were working on other methods to secure the cutter of this type of AAD and that they were planning on making their own generic pockets. This was at the 2007 symposium. I haven't gotten into it much since then. At an earlier meeting several of us had discussions with Kai and Helmut about this. At the time I thought that Helmut was going to relent on the pocket but not the elastic cutter holder. He felt that was critical. I don't think that was ever followed through on by Airtec.

Last I knew at least Sunpath's order form ask you to specify which pocket. Too lazy to look right now.


Fandango

Nov 21, 2008, 12:28 AM
Post #10 of 15 (977 views)
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Re: [councilman24] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

Terry is absolutely right when he does not mix and match AAD components of different manufacturers

As a rig manufacturer I also strongly advise you to NOT install a AAD in another one's set up !

Why ?

When we TSO a reserve container, AADs are not involved, since they are not TSOable.
Rig manufacturers have to prove during TSO testing that when the ripcord is manually pulled, the Reserve can deploy without hesitation.

The AAD, as we have it today ALTERES the once tested and approved Reserve activation method, by cutting the loop inside the container, leaving a bit of loop material to be disposed by the reserve pilot chute.

Question : Who is responsible that this alternative activation method including it's installation, will neither obstruct nor block TSOed functions of your reserve/container assembly ????

Answer : The AAD manufacturer

Every reputable AAD manufacturer will, after he has fully tested the compatability of his device in all rigs he wants to sell to, provide his product with his set up, including a installation / user manual to enable YOU as the responsalbe owner of the rig to have it installed by your rigger.

Conclusion :
AADs are not compulsary by law ( parachute associations are not the law )
AADs are not TSOable
AADs are your personal choice of enhancing your safety
AADs which cut the loop inside the container, alter the once tested and approved reserve activation method

If you, as the responsable owner, put a AAD brand X into a setup of brand Y it is YOU who will be left with the responsability of the compatability of all involved components in your reserve container !!

Mind you, this is not a technical issue, this is a legal issue.

Think about it and ask the ADD manufacuter of your choice to provide you with the above mentioned items, no matter if you are the owner or a rigger !!

Regards

Stefan Ertler
Paratec GmbH


(This post was edited by Fandango on Nov 21, 2008, 12:33 AM)


sberkovitz  (B 6178)

Nov 21, 2008, 6:23 AM
Post #11 of 15 (945 views)
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Re: [Fandango] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

Is this to say that a container that is listed as "Cypress Ready" cannot be modified by a rigger (ie: installing the correct pouch) to accept another manufacter's AAD?


mark  (D 6108)

Nov 21, 2008, 6:25 AM
Post #12 of 15 (945 views)
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Re: [Fandango] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The AAD, as we have it today ALTERS the once tested and approved Reserve activation method, by cutting the loop inside the container, leaving a bit of loop material to be disposed by the reserve pilot chute.

Question : Who is responsible that this alternative activation method including it's installation, will neither obstruct nor block TSOed functions of your reserve/container assembly ????

Answer : The AAD manufacturer

If the issue is what happens with the piece of closing loop remaining after it is cut, then there is no practical difference between the major loop-cutter AAD brands.

In the U.S., the harness/container manufacturer is responsible for AAD installation (sewing in channels and pockets). This installation is not an alteration, since it appears on the TSO drawings as part of the approved configuration of the harness/container.

If the harness/container is not AAD-ready, then a qualified person can obtain authorization for alteration by working through the local FSDO.

I don't know of any AAD manufacturers who have obtained FAA authorization for alterations on their own behalf.

In reply to:
If you, as the responsible owner, put a AAD brand X into a setup of brand Y it is YOU who will be left with the responsibility of the compatibility of all involved components in your reserve container !!

Mind you, this is not a technical issue, this is a legal issue.

Maybe, but I don't think it matters much. Riggers have always been responsible for the compatibility of assembled components.

Mark


Fandango

Nov 22, 2008, 1:31 AM
Post #13 of 15 (905 views)
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Re: [mark] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

@ Steven : of course it can be changed. It must be changed once you wish fit a alternative AAD.


@Mark : It is irrelevant who does the work. At least in Germany the owner is responsable for the airworthyness of his kit. Who does the work for him is not really the point.
The rigger can be held liable for his work, I agree, but it is the owner who is responsable that his kit is up do date and legal.

Compare it to cars : If your car has no MOT, you as the owner will get the ticket, but if work has been done by a garage to get your car MOT ready, and this work has caused a accident, they are liable.

As I said, this is a legal issue not a technical.

Stefan


(This post was edited by Fandango on Nov 22, 2008, 1:33 AM)


erdnarob  (D 364)

Nov 22, 2008, 2:55 PM
Post #14 of 15 (861 views)
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Re: [billvon] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

I understand what you say but not quite agree with you. That question was raised at the last PIA Reno symposium and Bill Booth politely answered than when he tests a rig he does it with about half a dozen of different manufacturers reserves and assume that other reserves which fit well in the container and do not interfere with the normal function of the container are OK. That should be the same idea with a pocket in Spandex which obviously can contain a Cypres, a Vigil, an Argus or an Astra which all have about the same kind of volume. To illustrate a bit more this thread here is something which happened few year ago. When the Cypres II came out (2002), the British Parachute Association (BPA) forbided the installation of the Cypres II in a Cypres I pocket since the shape and size were different. Immediately Airtec (Cypres maker) published a waiver for UK only saying that installtion is OK. Have you seen a very different pocket for Cypres I or Cypres II ? Not at all and it is still the same and working well. Nothing can make us not able to use our common sense and this pocket issue is a problem which in fact doesn't exist.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Nov 22, 2008, 2:59 PM
Post #15 of 15 (857 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] "Cypress ready" and support for other AAD's [In reply to] Can't Post

> Nothing can make us not able to use our common sense and this pocket issue is
>a problem which in fact doesn't exist.

You are arguing "it's basically the exact same pocket and will work fine" and I agree. We're not talking about common sense; we're talking about lawsuit protection - and they have little to do with each other.



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