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Would you consider ADD a disability?

 

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CRAZYBOY333

Nov 11, 2008, 4:15 PM
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Would you consider ADD a disability? Can't Post

ADD doesnt sound serious, but I cant remember the amount of times I have almost went in because my dumb ass went all ADD preping for a skydive. You forget one little thing and *BLAM* that's it! I am convinced I am guna kill myself on accident one day, but I cant help it. tried meds , but there worthless.

I kinda want to hear how people with similar issues deal with this. THANKS! Smile


chiquita24  (B License)

Nov 11, 2008, 10:14 PM
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Re: [CRAZYBOY333] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
ADD doesnt sound serious, but I cant remember the amount of times I have almost went in because my dumb ass went all ADD preping for a skydive. You forget one little thing and *BLAM* that's it! I am convinced I am guna kill myself on accident one day, but I cant help it. tried meds , but there worthless.

I kinda want to hear how people with similar issues deal with this. THANKS!
Have you been officially diagnosed with ADD? Gone through all of the testing? Unless you are truly ADD the meds may not work for you. I disagree with some of the usage of the meds as Adderall is only like 1 mg away from being meth. But for some people, they do seem to help. With all that said, your post is concerning. If you find that you are forgetting things or freaking out preparing for them, it could be stress and just not ADD. And you state "I'm convinced I am gonna kill myself in an accident one day," that's a scary thought. Maybe you should reconsider what you're doing?

edited to add: I'm not a doctor, but I do have experience working with psychiatric disorders. Please be safe!!


(This post was edited by chiquita24 on Nov 11, 2008, 10:14 PM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Nov 12, 2008, 2:53 AM
Post #3 of 41 (6054 views)
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Re: [CRAZYBOY333] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ADD doesnt sound serious, but I cant remember the amount of times I have almost went in because my dumb ass went all ADD preping for a skydive. You forget one little thing and *BLAM* that's it! I am convinced I am guna kill myself on accident one day, but I cant help it. tried meds , but there worthless.

I kinda want to hear how people with similar issues deal with this. THANKS! Smile

I'm trying to decide if yours is a serious and honest post. Your profile is nearly empty. How many jumps do you (really) have? Have you really "almost gone in" more times than you can remember? Do your instructors / fellow jumpers not recognize this? If you really think you're "guna kill yourself" jumping, then you shouldn't jump.

If you want medical advice about ADD, sit down and have a comprehensive session with a physician or psychotherapist. A skydiving blog site is no place to get medical advice.


debussyschild  (Student)

Nov 12, 2008, 6:25 AM
Post #4 of 41 (6040 views)
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Re: [CRAZYBOY333] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I've got ADHD. I was diagnosed by about 10 years of age, no, I wasn't misdiagnosed. I've seen a lot of people who have been, however, or who try to diagnose themselves... irritating to say the least. Anyways, I didn't have a problem on my first skydive at all with being distracted. In fact, I was quite the opposite in free fall. I was SUPER focused. Granted, I take medication and I have learned over the years how to manage myself and be self-disciplined. IMO, you can completely skydive with ADD. There are plenty of people out there that don't have it and make stupid blunders because they were careless. It's called Darwinism. Take your time when preping. Double check everything. Have someone else double check. You'll get to skydive, but--as with all other things in life--if you rush, you're bound to make careless mistakes.


debussyschild  (Student)

Nov 12, 2008, 6:35 AM
Post #5 of 41 (6038 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
ADD doesnt sound serious, but I cant remember the amount of times I have almost went in because my dumb ass went all ADD preping for a skydive. You forget one little thing and *BLAM* that's it! I am convinced I am guna kill myself on accident one day, but I cant help it. tried meds , but there worthless.

I kinda want to hear how people with similar issues deal with this. THANKS! Smile

I'm trying to decide if yours is a serious and honest post. Your profile is nearly empty. How many jumps do you (really) have? Have you really "almost gone in" more times than you can remember? Do your instructors / fellow jumpers not recognize this? If you really think you're "guna kill yourself" jumping, then you shouldn't jump.

If you want medical advice about ADD, sit down and have a comprehensive session with a physician or psychotherapist. A skydiving blog site is no place to get medical advice.

And I do have to agree with these other two posts. Some people like to throw the term ADD around frivolously as something to describe a particular behavior, like being stupid or careless. If you are trying to self-diagnose, you are more than likely to be wrong. There is a very stringent diagnostic process that has to take place over at least a years time and involves a lot of people and time (teachers, parents, doctors, family, the patient, etc.), not to mention that the symptoms are very, very specific.
If you are simply trying to say that sometimes you become inattentive or lazy about preparing your gear (and your MIND) to skydive, please refrain from labeling your particular behavior as 'ADD.' This is not to bash you or anything, but throwing the term around loosely does make it very difficult for those that have ADD to retain any credibility or understanding for their disability. Not to mention the medication they are prescribed gets abused by everyone under the sun (a gov't controlled substance, no less) and this forces legitimate patients to go through hoops each time they need medication.


Cari

Nov 12, 2008, 3:44 PM
Post #6 of 41 (5998 views)
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Re: [debussyschild] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyways, I didn't have a problem on my first skydive at all with being distracted. In fact, I was quite the opposite in free fall. I was SUPER focused.

This is pretty much how I imagined it would be. Since I don't have ADHD or anything myself, I can only base my thoughts on knowing my cousin, who does have it. The only time she doesn't seem like she's thinking about a billion things at a time is when she is really into something. When I was reading the initial post in this thread, all I was thinking was that it seemed to be the opposite of what I would expect!


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Feb 7, 2009, 11:49 AM
Post #7 of 41 (5813 views)
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Re: [Cari] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I’ve had Attention Deficit Disorder all my live, to a very extreme degree (with brainwave activity scans to prove it). It can be extremely dangerous to Skydive if you have severe ADD and are not able to control it with mental, dietary, or pharmaceutical means.

The trick to see if you’re ready is this:

• Make yourself a list of the things you want to do before and after a Skydive.

• Keep a small sheet in your pocket and mark off things as you do them.

• After two skydives, are you still remembering to fill out this sheet? If you can’t reliably do it physically you’re sure not going to be able to do it mentally. This isn’t a matter of laziness; it’s a matter of ADD, or “absent mindedness”.

• If after your first two skydives of the day, you remembered to mark down every step – skydive the rest of the day keeping track of things mentally, for as long as you’re in the routine – but if you break the routine and return start up with your sheet again.

This is going to sound overly simple and silly to a lot of people, but unless you’ve actually experienced uncontrolled ADD symptoms you can’t realize how hard it can be to function normally with the necessary thought patterns needed to prevent disaster in this sport, even though you look normal and capable to everyone else.

People who are ADD are particularly susceptible to making poor spontaneous decisions that have a lack of thought behind them. Make sure that you don’t do ANYTHING that you have not first planned out. Hopping on a load at the last minute is when you’re likely to forget that really important thing. Take the time to go through your mental list and manifest for the next load. Don’t let peer pressure force you to make decisions too quickly.

As soon as you’re in the skydive, this will no longer be a safety issue, because adrenaline released will cause full alertness (this is what medicines that treat ADD do… release a continuous stream of adrenaline.). You’re likely to find that your first skydive of the day works as medicine could otherwise, providing you with better clarity for the rest of the day.

Also, on a personal note, if your ADD is severe enough, I highly recommend you find a doctor who is able to work with you to find a control mechanism that is right for you. This may be in the form of establishing habits, dietary changes, mental exercises, or medicine. If you’re thinking “I tried the medicine and it didn’t work”, you must realize that there are numerous medications available, and even something as simple as the dosages can completely change what a medicine does to you.


half-a-greek  (C 39212)

Feb 7, 2009, 7:49 PM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been officially diagnosed with ADD, and I don't see a problem with me skydiving. If anything, I know that I have ADD and I'm prone to poor planing/wandering focus, (I'm not a fuckin squirrel tho. Some people think that is what ADD/ADHD does to a person. lol), If anything, having ADD has made me more aware of what I need to do. I have a routine mental checklist which I run through every dive, and by repetition I've started to drill it into my brain. besides the prep work for a dive, I've never forgot something like to pull, and how and when to flare. As it has been said above, the first skydive I make in a day gives me plenty of adrenalline to last the day Wink


Mr17Hz  (A 47290)

Feb 8, 2009, 10:25 AM
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Re: [chiquita24] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I disagree with some of the usage of the meds as Adderall is only like 1 mg away from being meth.

You're way off here.

"meth", is methamphetamine, which is not the same as amphetamine. Adderall is effectively a variety of amphetamine's of different forms. it's generic name is "amphetamine salts". The "meth" in methamphetamine comes from the chemical name "methyl".

The chemical Methamphetamine is composed of an amphetamine molecule with an additional methyl group attached to it's nitrogen (amine). A methyl is one of the simplest atomic groups which can be added to a molecule: it is a single carbon atom with a set of 3 (usually) hydrogens.

The Methyl part of methamphetamines DRAMATICALLY changes the way in which the body absorbs this chemical. It effectively increases both the rate and amount which is absorbed.

If you don't have ADD and want to experience it, stay up 30 hours in a row, and then take a 1 mile run. Now, try to function at 100% without getting distracted or forgetting what needs to be done. It will be difficult because parts of your brain have shut off because they are "tired"

This is effectivaly what ADD is, a condition in which parts of the brain stay "asleep" when the body wakes up.

Adderall, and other amphetamine drugs, are a safe form of releasing a steady supply of amphetamines into the brain at a safe rate for those who have chemical producing brain deficiancies that cause certain parts of the brain to "Sleep" when they should be awake.


dninness  (D 19617)

Feb 8, 2009, 11:12 AM
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Re: [Mr17Hz] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know if I'd necessarily classify ADD as a "disability," per se, but it sure can be a challenge to work around/with.

Had a student this summer who was pretty skilled in the air, but darn if that poor guy didn't need to keep an Adderol IV drip going to stay focused on the ground. We were dirt-diving his coach 3-way (we have a "do a 3-way" to graduate requirement at my DZ) and as we're talking thru the steps all bent over by the mock up, this young man glances over and sees the Wings logo on the container I'm jumping, and he says "oooh, Wings.. you know, I was thinking of getting Wings.. do you like it?" as we're trying to dirt dive. I had ahold of his gripper and I shook it and said "Dude, we're dirt diving here. Focus."

Now, look, I have a short attention span sometimes ("look, shiny object!"), but this poor lad's attention span could be measured in nanoseconds.

Now, is that a problem? When you're under the supervision of an instructor, maybe not so much. I knew to keep him focused in the boarding area, keep a hand on him going to the plane (yeah, don't need him to get distracted by the prop..), keep his attention in the aircraft and be *constantly* checking his level of attention to the task at hand. Once it was time to skydive, he was pretty focused, but I gotta wonder what he was doing with the slack time under canopy... :)

Under your own supervision, however, that's an entirely different story. How do I know he didn't leave his packing tool in his closing loop? (hopefully he's smart enough to ask for a gear check or something, right, but does every single dude on the plane get a pin check every time?) What if he forgot to cock his pilot chute or, even less checkable on the ground, stow his brakes correctly or quarter his slider correctly?

We had another student this summer who quickly got the nickname "Total." I don't know if he was "ADD" or not (I think so, but don't know for sure), but he was easily distracted by his damn cell phone. He'd be in the middle of packing and his phone would ring or vibrate and I'd see him talking or texting like a demon while kneeling on the bag or mid-way thru stowing lines. Then he's rushing to make it on the load cuz he's behind the power curve, and he's forgetting things.

He was packing one day and I said "Geez, what is taking this guy so long?" and I look and he's on the phone when he should be packing for the load we're manifested on (I'm a big believer in not rushing my students to get on loads, but you know, when you manifest 2 loads out on a slow day, that's not exactly rushing, until the dude starts farting around). I walked over, knelt down and said "Dude, hang up the phone. You're packing. You need to concentrate."

Near the end of the season, after he was a licensed jumper, our DZO stopped him enroute to the plane from the hangar cuz he had his @#$% packing tool hanging out of the closing flap, and sure enough, he stowed the pilot chute w/o pulling the closing tool out (thats where he got his nickname..)

I took his cell phone away from him one day, said "Andy, this thing needs to get put away when you hit this DZ. Its distracting you, and you're going to f**king mort yourself because of it.."

I doubt it sank in. And it concerns me because he's now a licensed skydiver and will get somewhat less in the way of "external" safety checks from others, unlike being a student where you get checked constantly.

I jokingly say I'm easily distractable (and I can be) but I have a rule that I leave all my "shit" at the end of the DZ's driveway. Whatever I have going on out in "the world" is out there, beyond an imaginary white line painted at the end of the driveway. Cell phone goes off and in the helmet bag and I concentrate on the tasks at hand and push all the other crap to the side (ex-wife, kid issues, whatever). Missing a phone call probably won't kill me. Missing a step in packing/gearing up just might.


ASTKU  (D License)

Feb 11, 2009, 10:26 AM
Post #11 of 41 (5654 views)
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Re: [CRAZYBOY333] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

ADD is a bullshit term.....

You just need to develop a method of checking your rig, preparing for a skydive, etc. that works for you....


dmcoco84  (D 27378)

Feb 12, 2009, 8:02 AM
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Re: [CRAZYBOY333] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

Psychiatry, the only medical profession that attempts to treat an organ they fail to even examine.

If an individual comes into the ER with chest pain, the physician will listen to the patient’s symptoms, do blood work to look for markers indicating cardiac distress, and most importantly, view a 12 lead EKG to see the actual functionality of the cardiac muscle.

If there were a problem, without knowing how the heart is functioning, how would the physician know which medications to give? It can’t be done, unless the goal is to kill the patient. Nor could proper treatment been administered for numerous other organs if only the patients symptoms were accounted for.

ADD is not a psychiatric disorder, nor are the majority of neurological problems “they treat.” ADD is a physiological abnormality within the prefrontal cortex. During generalized activity this portion of the brain is unaffected. However, upon activities that require concentration, this portion of the brain shuts down. Shuts down? Yes... If your arm has no blood in it, it won’t work, same with the brain. Or if there were no blood flow to the occipital regions of the brain, you would not be able to see.

Functions of the pre-frontal cortex... attention span, perseverance, judgment, impulse control, organization, self-monitoring and supervision, problem solving, critical thinking, forward thinking, learning from experience, ability to feel and express emotions, interaction with the limbic system and empathy. Pretty important... ey?

Now, Dr. Daniel Amen is a psychiatrist... but he is also a clinical neuroscientist. Dr. Amen has been the leading innovator of SPECT imaging. SPECT imaging looks at blood flow and metabolism rates within the brain. A whole slew of problems can occur within a brain structure from either under or over activity. This imaging technology is far more advanced and beneficial than other technology used for these purposes. CT and MRI are purely anatomical and show nothing of substance (SPECT can also be used for bleeds and strokes just as a CT is used). EEG is extremely limited (but being used in other quite innovative ways – like controlling a computer through EEG mapping. If you were to map the impulses of the brain used to move the arm, you can create a prosthesis controlled through EEG mapping.).

I have Attention Deficit Disorder, as well as extreme hyperactivity both in behavioral and thought process functioning. I was tested in the first grade, as well as given an IQ test where I had to stand the entire test because I couldn’t stop moving (scored quite well too). Not only that but I have quite a few other problems including OCD, repetitive fear based checking (and there are many different types). Any BASE jumper who has shared an exit point with me would know… because at its worst, it would take me 30 minutes to climb a 1k antenna (pretty fast), and an additional 40 just to check my rig, gear up, and be ready to jump. Example, when I checked my handle... 3 sets of 3. All of my rituals are in 3 sets of 3... it makes life very difficult at times… but quite comforting to know that Nicola Tesla was exactly the same. (If you don’t know who that is, I suggest you look it up. Sad how few do considering his impact on the world.)

OCD is a PHYSIOLOGICAL abnormality in the Anterior Cingulate, which is the portion of the brain that acts as the gear shifter between thoughts. When overactive, OCD manifests and it is very common with ADD. As well as anxiety is associated with under or over activity with the basal ganglia. A problem Dr. Amen has himself, along with his children and mother who were scanned for his research in the beginning, and all have the same brain patterns.

Don’t believe it? Need a better example? Well the United States Army has been utilizing Dr. Amen at the Walter Reed medical center to treat solders with traumatic brain injuries. Many soldiers would experience increased anger, violence, and other temper related problems after recovery. Through SPECT imaging, it was found that many of these solders had damage to the temporal lobe(s). It was also found unpon being scanned that many of the children who killed classmates and faculty in school shootings had temporal lobe problems.

Change your Brain Change your Life is his most recent book. Talks about each of the different brain structures, their functions and their problems associated with over or under activity. As well has treatments... non-medication prescriptions, cognitive therapy, diet, and of course medications (natural and synthetic). Like St. Johns wart for depression... a natural SSRI.

The medications given to those with ADD are psycostimulants... they increase blood flow to the prefrontal cortex. That is why it is often found that those with ADD self medicate with Nicotine, THC, Cocaine, and Amphetamines. They are all psycostimulants. I could go much further into medication and pharmacology but I simply don’t have the time at the moment. Medication is necessary for some... It won’t help you study if you don’t have it and can make think 10x worse for others... others like me. Psycostimulants worsen things like OCD.

Crazyboy... Skydiving is an extremely psycostimulative activity. Problems with gear checking and dive planning are understandable… however the actual skydive... you wouldn’t forget to pull... Just like debussyschild said, “Super focused in freefall”, you would become more aware and focused. (That would be with or without meds) If you are forgetting steps to packing... either spend more time doing so and make a personalized systematic way to pack or get a packer. You should see me pack my BASE rig! Perfectly neat and the same every time. If you are messing up dive flows... keep them simple and small, and then work your way up. If you are unable to maintain altitude awareness, then don’t skydive. From your post, you sound like you are full of it... I don’t think you have ADD. You may just be a dumb ass... Like we say at the hospital almost every night... “Ya can’t cure stupidity..." Sorry bro!

Mr17Hz - First of all, no individual “is” ADD. ADD is a brain function abnormality. You can only “have” ADD. Patrick Swayze isn’t pancreatic cancer... he HAS pancreatic cancer. My grandpa wasn’t Alzheimer’s, he had/developed it.

As for your advice... yea, I could agree with that to a point. However... your second to last paragraph is completely false. Firstly, adrenaline (properly named, epinephrine) is not why functioning increases. Try dopamine, but I don’t have time to go into this fully... As well as under activity to the prefrontal cortex would return at the end of the skydive, or shortly after. Especially if packing is started, a non-simulative activity that requires concentration. Continued skydives would be needed to bring about the prefrontal cortex perfusion through pyscostimulation.

ASTKU – You might wanna be careful with your words... If you had said that to me, in person, and didn’t take it back, I might just have a lapse in judgment from poor prefrontal cortex function and end up punching you in the face. That would be like saying, “Autism is bullshit, your kid is just retarded.” Don’t call something bull shit that you don’t understand.

Would I describe ADD as a disability? Most definitely, but to a point. In grade school I had accommodations such as double time on tests. For example… word problems. The average student would read a word problem once or twice, maybe three times, understand it and answer. For me, it would require easily 10-15 times, usually 5 before I could even start to structure my answer. Without that accommodation, I would have easily failed the majority of my classes... I was successful, but I struggled through grade school... Got better in high school because with age I was better at controlling my focus without the need of medication. I have also found that I retain almost nothing from auditory learning. Lecture is useless to me and I will have taken over 90% of my Bachelors online at completion. Read a book, take a test... reading works best for me... Visual and hands on learning. And very near in the future I’ll be attending Medical School.

L8er
Coco

Edit for Spelling


(This post was edited by dmcoco84 on Feb 12, 2009, 8:12 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 14, 2009, 8:30 AM
Post #13 of 41 (5548 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ADD is a bullshit term....

You haven't the remotest idea what you're talking about.


ASTKU  (D License)

Feb 14, 2009, 10:06 AM
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Re: [Andy9o8] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You haven't the remotest idea what you're talking about.


Okay.... I will let other people do the talking....


Quote:
"The term attention-deficit disorder turns out to be a misnomer. Most people who have it actually have remarkably good attention spans as long as they are doing activities that they enjoy or find stimulating. As Martha B. Denckla of the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore has noted, we should probably be calling the condition something like "intention-inhibition disorder," because it is a condition in which one's best intentions — say, reading 50 pages in a dense textbook or writing a 10-page paper in a timely fashion — go awry.

In essence, attention-deficit disorder is context driven. In many situations of hands-on activities or activities that reward spontaneity, A.D.H.D. is not a disorder....

It's frightening to think that the modern world has been organized around what are aberrant capacities (like "attention surplus"), putting those with normal capacities (that were useful when evolved) at such a disadvantage that drugs -- dangerous drugs -- must be used to compensate."


Quote:
"While I don't doubt for a second that there are people out there who legitimately have ADD, I think that it's a cop-out a lot of the time. The fact that treatments of ADD nearly quadrupled between 1987 and 1997 strikes me as extremely suspicious....
The symptoms of ADHD are so vague that practically any 'bad' behaviors can be interpreted as signs of ADHD. It's a lot easier for parents to say, "Johnny's misbehaving in school because he has ADHD. Give him some medication." than to say, "Johnny's misbehaving because we did a poor job of raising him. We'll work harder as parents and make a lot of sacrifices to straighten him out."

Ever get nervous? Worry about things? Have trouble concentrating sometimes? Other perfectly normal human frailties? Give the ADHD test at WebMD a try. I can almost guarantee that you'll be diagnosed with at least moderate ADHD."


Andy9o8  (D License)

Feb 14, 2009, 12:42 PM
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Re: [ASTKU] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not going to argue with you. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, any more than the small cottage industry of degreed "experts" who deny evolution, global warming - or ADHD - know what the hell they're talking about. Talk to the hand.


ASTKU  (D License)

Feb 14, 2009, 4:58 PM
Post #16 of 41 (5511 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

Everyone's got an opinion. Mine just happens to be that ADD is not a disability. If you read one of those quotes it is saying that ADD is a product of evolution and it can be used as an advantage. So far all you are talking about is how I don't know what I am talking about....Thats pretty easy to say, huh..... What is your opinion other than not agreeing with mine??


crashtested  (D License)

Feb 16, 2009, 6:24 PM
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Re: [ASTKU] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I do agree with what your saying, I only say it as i have been diagnosed with all sorts of things as a kid,

dyslexsia, ADD, turetts. etc etc

I just can't spell, and write backwards, because i can't be arsed to learn, and can write backwards.

I pay attention to the things i care about but nothing else, if i'm not engaged I turn my OWN brain off

I like using the word Shag pile, in day to day use.

Funny how fat people have now come up with a genetic code different from thin people.... Or just big boned, you could say...

Get off your lazy fat ass and do something about it.

ADD is another excuse for being a yank, half your country seems to suffer from it....


figment  (A 229400)

Feb 18, 2009, 8:08 PM
Post #18 of 41 (5394 views)
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Re: [CRAZYBOY333] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I work with students with all sorts of disabilities at my university, and yep, ADD is most definitely a disability. The ADA (american disabilities act) says so :) ADD can severely hinder students (in particular) and meds but also accommodations really help. however i do think that a LOT of people milk the system, which is really irritating to see, cause it just slows everyone else down.


(This post was edited by figment on Feb 18, 2009, 8:10 PM)


DFWAJG

Feb 22, 2009, 11:20 AM
Post #19 of 41 (5327 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

Psychiatry, the only medical profession that attempts to treat an organ they fail to even examine.

You are sadly misinformed. Psychiatrists use a Mental Status Exam as a means of examining the brain. http://en.wikipedia.org/...l_status_examination


dmcoco84  (D 27378)

Feb 23, 2009, 8:14 AM
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Re: [ASTKU] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

WOW! Your post is so utterly ridiculous that I’ve had a hard time responding.

Lets start out with a song! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

Firstly, who cares what it is called! Call it SDPCP - Super Duper Prefrontal Cortex Problem. I really could care less. The fact is there are thousands of imaging studies done by Dr. Amen showing what I explained previously, ADD is real.

Secondly, ADHD is not just a hyper child with short attention span who can’t seem to get schoolwork done. ADHD is characterized by persistent short attention span, distractibility, disorganization, procrastination and most importantly, problems with forethought, judgment and impulse control. It’s a little more complicated than you think. There are plenty of people who are very energetic and have short attention spans for school/job related work that do not share the other characteristics, and therefore would not be classified as having ADHD.

More so, Dr Amen classifies ADD/ADHD by six different types. Of those types, Type 2: Inattentive ADD; includes the primary ADD symptoms plus low energy and motivation, spacey, and internally preoccupied. It is more common in girl and these are quiet kids and adults, often labeled lazy, unmotivated, and not that smart. Very different from the symptoms generalized by the public about the disorder.

Not to mention your own quoted MD on ADHD, wrote on its occurrence in young females. http://www.deficitdeatencionperu.org/...girls-with-adhd.html - Just like how men and woman show different signs of a heart attack, there are differences between the sexes in ADD/ADHD. She says it’s real too, though there are many things I disagree with in her piece.

Aight, here we go...

“Letting others speak for you” didn’t do you ANY good. Your source selection is downright pathetic! (https://lists.aktivix.org/...06-March/001512.html). Posted on a mailing list and originally in the New York Times, which is a dying newspaper as of recent statistics. An article that is over 2 years old stating one idiotic psychiatrist’s thoughts on the usage of medication, how learning should be structured to overcome it instead and that it was actually an evolutionary benefit in the hunter gather time period. Stupid BS. And nice job of only using parts of the article, not posting the URL, and then taking those parts out of context.

Unfortunately I guess I have to go over the entire article...

Quote:

The recent recommendation that Ritalin and other medications for attention-deficit disorder carry the most serious allowable warning will certainly slow the explosive growth in the use of those drugs. That was the intention of some members of the Food and Drug Administration advisory committee that called for the packaging alert, known as a black-box warning.


No argument there. The medications that are prescribed for the disorder are rough! I was on Ritalin for many years and switched to Dexedrine for a short period of time before I stopped the use of medication. Suffered from loss of appetite, weight loss, insomnia, head aches, irritability, ticks (like constantly cracking my knuckles or moving while seated), and others. It was pretty undesirable. Zanaflex, Adderall, Adderall XR, Strattera are just as bad. But the risk of death is actually low... Death has been caused from pre-existing cardiac arrhythmias and not that they create one or cause cardiac arrest. A simple EKG can be done prior to the start of medication to ensure safety.

Quote:
But the recommendation and concerns about growth in the use of these drugs may force us to think about the disorder, known as A.D.H.D., in new and different ways, from an evolutionary and contextual standpoint.

Every generation likes to believe that it is witnessing the most dramatic epoch in history. In the case of the current Western world, that belief may indeed be accurate, particularly in light of the striking changes of the last 30 years.

Whatever...

Quote:
As the business writer and consultant Peter Drucker pointed out, most people in the United States, Japan and parts of Europe are "knowledge workers." We live in an information age, in a knowledge-based economy.

Umm... not really... that is if you read more about it.

Quote:
For those of us who have "attention-surplus disorder" — a term coined by Dr. Ned Hallowell, a psychiatrist in Boston who has A.D.H.D. — this knowledge-based economy has been a godsend. We thrive.

But attention disorder cases, up to 5 to 15 percent of the population, are at a distinct disadvantage. What once conferred certain advantages in a hunter-gatherer era, in an agrarian age or even in an industrial age is now a potentially horrific character flaw, making people feel stupid or lazy and irresponsible, when in fact neither description is apt.


Those with ADD/ADHD do not have an attention surplus... and a Google search brings up a bunch of BS. As I explained before, “ADD is a physiological abnormality within the prefrontal cortex. During generalized activity this portion of the brain is unaffected. However, upon activities that require concentration, this portion of the brain shuts down.” This would not be an advantage in the hunter-gatherer era! Think about impulse control and critical thinking when sneaking up on prey. Concentrating on the prey and needing to slowly sneak up behind it. That activity would be hindered if the PFC were not functioning properly.

Quote:
The term attention-deficit disorder turns out to be a misnomer. Most people who have it actually have remarkably good attention spans as long as they are doing activities that they enjoy or find stimulating. As Martha B. Denckla of the Kennedy Krieger Institute in Baltimore has noted, we should probably be calling the condition something like "intention-inhibition disorder," because it is a condition in which one's best intentions — say, reading 50 pages in a dense textbook or writing a 10-page paper in a timely fashion — go awry.

Already covered this.

Quote:
Essentially, A.D.H.D. is a problem dealing with the menial work of daily life, the tedium involved in many school situations and 9-to-5 jobs.

Wrong! It affects every aspect of an individual’s life, including family, friendships and intimate relationships. It is more often negative... or can even destroy them. Think of the impulse control and critical thinking that comes with a relationship. Conflict-seeking behavior is also a problem with this disorder. Causing chaos and conflict is another way that individuals feed ADD. Just like self-medication with Nicotine, THC, Cocaine, and Amphetamines, conflict acts as a psycostimulant that feeds the brains dysfunction.

Quote:
Another hallmark, impulsivity, or its more positive variant, spontaneity, appears to be a vestige from lower animals forced to survive in the wild. Wild animals cannot survive without an extraordinary ability to react. If predators lurk, they need to act quickly.

This vestige underscores the fact that human genetic variability, the fact that we are not all simply clones of one another, has allowed us to survive as a species for 150,000 years in a variety of contexts and environments.


What a bunch of BS! To be impulsive would be to get angry and without forethought (ding ding) or thought about consequences (ding ding) punch someone in the face. Neither impulsivity nor being spontaneous deals with the fight or flight response that is programmed into the primitive parts of our brains.

Quote:
In essence, attention-deficit disorder is context driven. In many situations of hands-on activities or activities that reward spontaneity, A.D.H.D. is not a disorder.


Wrong again! Context driven? Not so much... I absolutely love science, have always found it fascinating and enjoy studying it! However I still had enormous difficulty learning the information whether it was biology, chemistry, astronomy... whatever. Or currently, on my own time, I am reading about physics and string theory. I still have to re-read information more than the average person does to fully retain it, regardless of its difficulty, and regardless of how interested in the information I am, or if I am learning in the “context” easiest for me. Or the skydivers talked about in this thread, learning dive flows and how to pack. These are quite interesting, especially for a new skydiver, hands on activities however they continued to cause difficulty. That is because any activity that requires concentration and focus can cause the individuals PFC to shut down leading to deficits in functionality. And that isn’t even looking at the possible other brain structures that could be exacerbating the problem.

Quote:
Ultimately, if studies show convincing evidence that children and adults have been harmed by medications for attention disorder, cardiologists will have every obligation to tell us to halt their use.

Like I said before, a simple EKG can be done prior to the start of medication to ensure cardiac safety, as that is the major concern with the medications. And isn’t that what the FDA is for?

Quote:
But a more fundamental societal accommodation would be highly beneficial — to recognize that each child and adult learns and performs better in certain contexts than others.

As Arthur Levine, president of the Teachers College at Columbia University, has noted, future teachers will be able to individualize and customize the education of students.

Some children and young adults with attention disorder may need more hands-on learning. Some may perform more effectively using computers and games rather than books. Some may do better with field work and wilderness programs.

There are three ways that people learn. There are Listening, Seeing, and Touch/Experience learners. And yes, you can have a combination. It would be wonderful if that were possible, but not all subjects have that ability. Teachers already utilize computer labs with interactive learning tool and games, Cable In The Classroom and other things like classroom Jeopardy games. But there will always be reading to do, bookwork, and word problems, especially if you wish to attend college. Students need to learn their own means for studying and adapting to overcome difficulty with learning. There are plenty of examples I could give, including things I did myself. For those things that students have difficulty with, like test taking. Accommodations are available for things like additional time. Or during high school lecture, I was allowed to have a tape recorder, because I retained very little. In college I didn’t even bother listening, I just showed up and then read the book. It took a much greater deal of effort on my part, but I did fine.

Quote:
If it is indeed a context-driven disorder, let's change the contexts in schools to accommodate the needs of children who have it, not just support and accommodate the needs of children with attention-surplus disorder.

It’s not a context driven disorder! Go ahead, search attention-SURPLUS disorder in Google. See what you get. Grin. “Shaking Head”

Quote:
For those with attention disorder who wish to be full participants in a knowledge-based world, medications equalize their opportunities. The drugs should and can be used only as needed in the context of dealing with the tedium of school or the drab paperwork of some jobs.

Cardiologists, biostatisticians and consumer advocates may clamor, appropriately or inappropriately, to reduce the use of the medications. But unless we go back to the caveman world, some people will find the drugs increasingly necessary to succeed as knowledge workers in a drastically transformed modern world.

Not even gonna bother...

Quote:
And now your comments:

The symptoms of ADHD are so vague that practically any 'bad' behaviors can be interpreted as signs of ADHD.….. Give the ADHD test at WebMD a try. I can almost guarantee that you'll be diagnosed with at least moderate ADHD."

You actually brought up the self test on WebMD? Idiot. Did you look up attention surplus on WebMD too? What did you find?

Over diagnosed? Sure has been, because of stupid General Practitioners and shitty Psychiatrists who don’t understand the disorder or how to properly diagnose it. Or they are looking to appease pushy parents who read about it in a book and “self-diagnosed their child”. Society is also abusing SSRIs like Prozac. Do you think that depression is bullshit too? Many people shouldn’t be on them either, but there are equally many who respond beneficially and need them. And then of course there are the negative repressions of “trying a different med till you find the one that works.” A commonly horrific practice in the field of psychiatry, which often leads to worse outcomes. A better option is often a natural SSRIs, like St. Johns Wart.

Quote:
It's frightening to think that the modern world has been organized around what are aberrant capacities (like "attention surplus"), putting those with normal capacities (that were useful when evolved) at such a disadvantage that drugs -- dangerous drugs -- must be used to compensate."

Again, this type of brain function was not beneficial in “cave man” times. As well as medication is not a means of compensation. It is a means of keeping the brain functioning correctly. Should Turrets patients who experience loud or distracting involuntary tics suck it up and learn how to deal with it? I don’t think a medication that stops or reduces the severity of those tics is compensation either. They both correct improper neurochemistry. Turrets is an equally problematic genetic brain function disorder also documented with SPECT imaging.

So you have gone from first calling ADD bullshit, to taking a pathetically written article in a shitty Newspaper out of context to try and show it’s a cop-out for bad parenting and improper learning settings, and finally to a self test on website that the majority of physicians despise and wish it didn’t exist (“Well on WebMD it says I have appendicitis… No, ya don’t.”) A society of the self diagnosed. Which is even more pathetic considering that the majority of parents today don’t even give their child with a fever Tylenol or Motron before considering a trip to the ER at 3am. “Did you give them anything?” “Umm No.” DUMBASS! You can’t cure stupidity...

My opinion... is that I think you need to do a little more research before you voice YOUR opinion. Here, a good book to start with.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/...9780812929980/?itm=1

D


dmcoco84  (D 27378)

Feb 23, 2009, 8:20 AM
Post #21 of 41 (5297 views)
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Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If you read one of those quotes it is saying that ADD is a product of evolution and it can be used as an advantage

I would love to hear how you think ADD is an advantage. The article sure didn't say, can you?

D


dmcoco84  (D 27378)

Feb 23, 2009, 9:10 AM
Post #22 of 41 (5290 views)
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Re: [DFWAJG] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

I am reminded of an English teacher I had in middle school, who used to say "Reading is Fundamental" when she was asked a dumb question. Laugh

Lets take a look at your link, shall we? In the very first sentence it refers to an MTE, as an important part of the clinical assessment process. In keeping the wiki theme, you can convieniently click on the word, assessment. A psychiatric assessment is a process of gathering information about a person, from a person.

Shall we go back to the beginning?

Quote:
If an individual comes into the ER with chest pain, the physician will listen to the patient’s symptoms, do blood work to look for markers indicating cardiac distress, and most importantly, view a 12 lead EKG to see the actual functionality of the cardiac muscle.

If there were a problem, without knowing how the heart is functioning, how would the physician know which medications to give? It can’t be done, unless the goal is to kill the patient. Nor could proper treatment been administered for numerous other organs if only the patients symptoms were accounted for.

A psychiatric assessment is no different than asking a patient what their symptoms are. A patient could say, “I’m depressed”. Many individuals have no external stimulus to cause this state. Deficits in Serotonin or abnormal functioning in certain brain structures can be accounted for the problem (brain injury is a big problem). Making a diagnosis solely based on symptoms will produce uncertain, and often negative outcomes. Only a diagnostic tool, such as a SPECT scan looks at the actual functionality of the brain. Similarly with kidney stones, CT scans check for stones and urine tests are done to check for blood. These are diagnostic tools.

Continuing the wiki theme, http://en.wikipedia.org/...Depression_Inventory
The Beck Depression Inventory, created by Dr. Aaron T. Beck, is a 21-question multiple-choice self-report inventory that is one of the most widely used instruments for measuring the severity of depression.

The development of the BDI was an important event in psychiatry and psychology because it represented the shift of healthcare professionals' view of depression from a Freudian, psychodynamic perspective, to one guided by the patient's own thoughts or "cognitions".

However, the BDI suffers from the same problems as other self-report inventories, in that scores can be easily exaggerated or minimized by the person completing it.

Psychiatrics listen to symptoms, and then they make diagnosis without knowing how the brain is actually functioning. Sorry buddy... you are the one that is sadly misinformed. The only psychiatrist I have read about who uses a diagnostic tool for evaluation, is Dr. Daniel Amen. If any others do as well, its after reading his research.

D


ASTKU  (D License)

Feb 23, 2009, 1:39 PM
Post #23 of 41 (5274 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
WOW! Your post is so utterly ridiculous that I’ve had a hard time responding.

It doesn't seem like you had a hard time responding. It looks like you did a freakin research paper. Amazing. If you are ADD, I would like some please. Just awesome that you have this much time on your hands to defend this. You must not have a job or maybe you don't sleep.


In reply to:
“Letting others speak for you” didn’t do you ANY good. Your source selection is downright pathetic!

Well since I have a job and don't really care about your opinion and this is only for my entertainment I only allocated two minutes of my day to research this subject. And my ADD kicked in!! Laugh


In reply to:
And nice job of only using parts of the article, not posting the URL, and then taking those parts out of context.

Again, I didn't think anybody would have the time to check the validity of my quotes. Laugh


In reply to:
And now your comments:

The symptoms of ADHD are so vague that practically any 'bad' behaviors can be interpreted as signs of ADHD.….. Give the ADHD test at WebMD a try. I can almost guarantee that you'll be diagnosed with at least moderate ADHD."


Uhhhh. Those weren't my comments. They were someone elses, I just thought it was funny so I copy and pasted.


In reply to:
You actually brought up the self test on WebMD? Idiot. Did you look up attention surplus on WebMD too? What did you find?

Nope. I didn't do any of that.
Also, its kinda rude to call me an idiot. I might be a jackass but I'm not an idiot. Laugh


In reply to:
Over diagnosed? Sure has been, because of stupid General Practitioners and shitty Psychiatrists who don’t understand the disorder or how to properly diagnose it. Or they are looking to appease pushy parents who read about it in a book and “self-diagnosed their child”.

That I would agree with.


In reply to:
Do you think that depression is bullshit too?

Okay. Okay. Maybe I shouldn't have said bullshit. But depression is used as cop-out just like ADD. If your depressed do something about it. Like me, I go skydiving. Cured.



In reply to:
And then of course there are the negative repressions of “trying a different med till you find the one that works.” A commonly horrific practice in the field of psychiatry, which often leads to worse outcomes.

Agreed. Thats a scary thought.


In reply to:
Should Turrets patients who experience loud or distracting involuntary tics suck it up and learn how to deal with it?

Now you're just being ridiculous.


In reply to:
So you have gone from first calling ADD bullshit, to taking a pathetically written article in a shitty Newspaper out of context to try and show it’s a cop-out for bad parenting and improper learning settings, and finally to a self test on website that the majority of physicians despise and wish it didn’t exist

Well, this is a thread on dropzone.com I didn't think you'd be checking my bibliography... For me, this is for entertainment.


In reply to:
My opinion... is that I think you need to do a little more research before you voice YOUR opinion. Here, a good book to start with.

Oh come on. Take it easy. Yes, I didn't do any research but shouldn't I still be able to voice my opinion??
And I don't have the attention span nor do I care enough to read books or check any of your links on this subject(which I didn't)....


Well, Its been fun. Try to relax a little and don't get so worked up. I truly believe that you know what you are talking about and its been fun and interesting reading your responses. I haven't laughed like this in a day or so.

Gotta get back to the grind, PEACE


DFWAJG

Feb 23, 2009, 3:18 PM
Post #24 of 41 (5260 views)
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Re: [dmcoco84] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering that I have 6 1/2 years of post graduate training in family practice and psychiatry, I think I know what I am talking about. 90% of ANY diagnosis is from history and physical, whether that is a psychiatric diagnosis or a general physical condition. What are your credentials that make you an expert on such topics? Care to share what licenses YOU have to practice medicine.

I know Dan Amen. He corroborates with my boss in California on forensic exams. He uses spect scanning to confirm what he suspects that he has gathered from his questionaires and his interview. I should know this, because I have seen the man myself. TEsting is used to confirm a diagnosis, not to be used as the primary diagnostic tool, whether it be for a psychiatric reason, or for a general medical reason.

Psychiatrists are physicians first, specialists second. So, when I had a 45 year old woman come to my office with a first onset of panic attack, I INTERVIEWED her for more information. As she told me that she had never had an attack before, I grew suspicious that she had a general medical problem. She had been seen in the ER and had thyroid studies done, which, were negative (thyroid problems being the number one cause of medically induced panic disorder). After I checked her blood pressure and pulse, and did a general cursery exam, I ruled out pheochromocytoma. Further questioning lead me to conclude that she might have an insulinoma...a rare disorder seen in one of every 4000 people. That is when I ordered three blood tests. Surely enough, they were abnormal and I sent her to a surgeon to have her insulinoma removed.

So you can see, that in this case, if she came in and I did a spect on her head, I would have missed the diagnosis. Instead, I asked her diagnositic questions that lead me to a history that was consistent with her diagnosis, and confirmed it with the proper testing.


dmcoco84  (D 27378)

Mar 7, 2009, 10:30 AM
Post #25 of 41 (5164 views)
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Re: [ASTKU] Would you consider ADD a disability? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nope, work full time in an Emergency Room and a full time student as well. I’m just as busy as anyone else, which is why I am just now responding.

My extensive response is from OCD, not from ADD. Trust me, you don’t want my brain.

It was difficult for a number of reasons. For one, HAVING add, my brain shuts down while trying to concentrate, just as I explained before. I’ll give you a decent example. Just the other day I was having a heated discussion with someone at work. Midway through making my point, poof, blank. Couldn’t remember a damn thing I was talking about. “Wait wait wait, stop, hold on. Give me a min.” Took me a good 30-40 seconds, because I had to go back over the whole thing in my head to get back to where I was. Without the OCD and the speed at which my brain functions, it would have taken much longer. Imagine that problem with exams full of complicated word problems or learning those dive flows at the dz. Additionally, if it were not a topic that I had constantly been thinking about, it would have been even more difficult to structure my response. Those with add, including myself, often have difficulty structuring verbal communication, for many different reasons. Two of which, we just can’t find our words, or our brains are processing faster than we can talk. Similarly why those with the disorder have to print instead of writing cursive. My cursive looked like one jumbled mess so I only print, and no amount of practice ever helped.

Secondly, I initially tried to argue just what you had posted. It made absolutely no sense so it was impossible to effectively discredit. I found the article but had the same problem with the ridiculous claims from the author. It took a great deal of time trying to understand where he was trying to come from, though he was wrong. I can’t tell you how many times I had to re-read that stupid shit, as well as reading my own response over and over to make sure it sounded the way it did it my thoughts.

I called you an idiot because your post essentially mocks ADD, and me, through voicing that you felt diagnosis of the disorder was as simple as an online test at WebMD. And yes, those were your words, because nowhere are those words posted solely or in any combination. Type “Give the ADHD test at WebMD a try” into Google. You get nothing. If I’m wrong, then post a link.

If you made that post after two minutes of research on a serious subject like this, posted for entertainment and for a laugh, then you are not only an idiot but a fucking asshole for wasting people’s time. It’s all good though. I’ll just ignore you in the future, and your words will be sure to show the jackass that you are.

Skydivers with disabilities is not the place. Go fuck off in Bonfire if you wanna mess around and push people’s buttons. Same as if you went and started posting nonsense in the Women only forum, when you’re a man. I have posted in there before but I was always respectful and serious unless it was a joke of good taste. Not the place for you to screw around, or they’d ban you. And your joke was neither funny nor in good taste.

DFWAJG, I am SO glad you chimed in. “I think I know what I am talking about.” Hahaha! This is gonna be fun. I was hoping someone like you would enter the conversation.

Unfortunately, I won’t be able to start replying till after the 19th. Got a big exam that I have to study for, I’m writing this post as I take breaks. Plus there are quite a few things I will be pulling from two of his books. I remember what was said, but I'd like to quote exactly. I'm looking forward to seeing your responses. So it’s Dan, ey? Are you on a first name basis? Why don’t you call him up, I’d love to have a chat with him. I'm extremely fucked up, I’d keep him on his toes. Grin…………

Coco

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(This post was edited by dmcoco84 on Mar 7, 2009, 10:38 AM)


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