Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Giving toggles to students? Was: Fatality - Skydive Orange

 

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 5, 2008, 9:26 AM
Post #1 of 37 (3131 views)
Shortcut
Giving toggles to students? Was: Fatality - Skydive Orange Can't Post

Quote:
Which brings another question to my mind. Why would you give the toggels to the student at all ?

There are a lot of good reasons to give your student the toggles, if you look in the Instructor's forum, you'll see this discussed a couple of times.


(This post was edited by PhreeZone on Nov 7, 2008, 5:03 AM)


BMFin

Nov 5, 2008, 9:55 AM
Post #2 of 37 (3056 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There are a lot of good reasons to give your student the toggles, if you look in the Instructor's forum, you'll see this discussed a couple of times.

Lot of good reasons ? I did search the subject and I couldnt find anyone stating a single reason (other than the IAF progression I already mentioned).

Maby you could point some of them out for me ?


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 5, 2008, 10:02 AM
Post #3 of 37 (3042 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

The short answer is what are we giving our student? Are you allowing your student as a TI to learn about skydiving or are you simply giving a carnival ride. A large majority of the people that I've taken on a tandem had no desire to fly the canopy with me for landing, so what happens is that they help me fly the the canopy around until about 1000 ft and they want to sit there while I take care of the landing.

That's typically their choice.

Other TI's have reasons to have the students help flare due to the toggle pressure on some tandem canopies. Sometimes TI's are fatigued and need the help. Sometimes TI's prefer to have the student help so they don't get so fatigued in so few jumps.

Its not hard to train a first jump tandem student to flare correctly with the TI. In fact it can even be taught while under canopy with a few practice flares and some simple hands on instruction.


richard1954  (Student)

Nov 5, 2008, 10:06 PM
Post #4 of 37 (3347 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The short answer is what are we giving our student?

The safest ride you can. These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride. Isn't it thrill enough to free fall, deploy and land, without adding what is universally understood to be a "risky" maneuver near the ground?

If they seem to be "students," let them pull, play with the toggles, etc. But don't expose them to dangers the SIM says I should never, ever take. Leave that to the hot dogs who risk (usually) only their own lives. Sure, it's okay for many, but for these tandems?

Quote:
A large majority of the people that I've taken on a tandem had no desire to fly the canopy with me for landing, so what happens is that they help me fly the the canopy around until about 1000 ft and they want to sit there while I take care of the landing.

That's typically their choice.

That's a glorified carnival ride. It's what's advertised. It's what they think they're getting.

Quote:
Other TI's have reasons to have the students help flare due to the toggle pressure on some tandem canopies. Sometimes TI's are fatigued and need the help. Sometimes TI's prefer to have the student help so they don't get so fatigued in so few jumps.

So, if I tell my friend he should try a tandem jump, I have to add that the instructor, to whom he's entrusting his life in a situation he doesn't really understand, might be too physically weak or just plain tired to operate the equipment safely without help? If that's true, it should be added to the marketing literature so that the consumer knows as much as possible about the risk they're taking.

Look. I'm obviously onboard for the sport. But I'm obviously not a TI or anything but a new student. But I read the Instructors forum and am not overly stupid. I've jumped a very little. I know it's physically damanding to crank out jumps and deal with the politics of the DZ assignments and all that, and the pleasure in giving good ride. And to be the star.

But most people expect to survive (it's advertised as being safe), and if they don't, to die for some really good reason (within the confines of the sport). A last minute flourish with little room for error seems unncecessary even if it's done okay 10,000 times before it isn't. An error in judgement by the instructor is precisely what I'm trying to avoid by jumping with a professional in the first place.

I understand the perils of misjudgement. I don't think the new tandem person CAN. They don't know anything about it.

I get it. I've done it a little, had the full ground training, landed a few times (never well), and have my eyes wide open. I still don't know why or how, but I accepted it in all it's possible horror.

The average person, I'm sure, sees the tandem as a risk-free (I should say, a professionally mitigated risk) chance to do something really dangerous, and live through it. A carnival ride, whether you let them participate or not. I'm also sure they expect that the sport involves a certain risk they can readily understand, but not that it involves other risks that may or may not be introduced by the instructor. And if they did, I don't think they'd opt for the riskier versions.


peek  (D 8884)

Nov 6, 2008, 5:15 AM
Post #5 of 37 (3201 views)
Shortcut
Re: [richard1954] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride.

Are you saying that at this particular dropzone (Orange) they are mere passengers? I see you live in Alexandria. Is this your home dropzone and you know this is the attitude or management?

That would seem strange to me. After all this is the home of the USPA ISP.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Nov 6, 2008, 5:37 AM
Post #6 of 37 (3175 views)
Shortcut
Re: [BMFin, richard1954] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately, yes, tandem has come to be, in the general public's viewpoint, as merely a "carnival ride".

A lot of that came about because TIs treated it as such.

You know, tandem can be an introduction into the sport of skydiving. We have Tandem Progression training methods for that.

If you are merely giving people a joyride, you are short-changing our sport and the student.

Every tandem student is a potential skydiver. TIs, IMHO, should be handling them as such right up front and what better way than to let them get actively involved in the jump as opposed to simply being a paying passenger?

Wear an altimeter!
Wear a jumpsuit!
Fly your body!
Pull!
Fly the canopy!

The only thing I wouldn't agree with is student assistance on landing that first one. TIs that do that need to be super aware and super ready for the student to do the wrong thing at the worst possible time...flaring for landing.

One other note to circumvent your comeback...yes, it's recognized that some tandem students want no part of having anything to do with the jump other than going along for the ride. Accomodate them, smile, hand them their certificate, prompt them to tell their friends what a thrill they had, invite them to hang around, and smile.


purple6807  (D 24036)

Nov 6, 2008, 6:04 AM
Post #7 of 37 (3127 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

A general observation regarding Tandems: As a Tandem-I and AFF instructor myself... I have profound respect for all instructors and their passengers. Unfortunately over the years I have seen too many Tandem instructors using the last 30 feet for final approach mixed with no base. Sooner or later someone will get hurt, or worse! Be safe !

My thoughts and prayers are with all involved.


(This post was edited by purple6807 on Nov 6, 2008, 6:11 AM)


weegegirl  (D License)

Nov 6, 2008, 6:24 AM
Post #8 of 37 (3086 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peek] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride.

Are you saying that at this particular dropzone (Orange) they are mere passengers? I see you live in Alexandria. Is this your home dropzone and you know this is the attitude or management?

That would seem strange to me. After all this is the home of the USPA ISP.

As someone who has flown video for orange for years, I can tell you that is not the case. Orange is not a tandem mill. We do not have tandem passengers, we have tandem students. That is how we refer to them, and that is how they are treated. Orange is a very safety oriented dropzone. This is a tragic, very unfortunate, isolated incident.

Prayers for all those involved.


carlson271

Nov 6, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #9 of 37 (3072 views)
Shortcut
Re: [richard1954] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

"The safest ride you can. These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride. Isn't it thrill enough to free fall, deploy and land, without adding what is universally understood to be a "risky" maneuver near the ground? "

Okay I have read this whole forum for a couple of days and I have not really responded to all that was being said because I am only a "carnival ride participant" as some of you would like to state. But the past few entries have really moved me to participate.

I have been flying all my life. My dad is a private pilot instructor, and has about every rating that one could have. And just like pilots each one of you should be taking certian precautions, and following certain rules and standards provided to you. Also some of your students are not dumb, when it comes to the sport. I knew exactly what equipment had failed in tandem jumps, how many, and what each of your "preflight" requirments as well as in air procdures before I jumped.

I however was still scared out of my mind. Even though I didn't show the signs of someone that would come back to jump again, I was educated enough to know that if done according to the guidelines that were presented before you - it would be a safe trip. There are factors that are out of your control as with anything in life, but if you follow the rules then you are most likely not going to get hurt.

I think that its unfortunate that you as a skydiver have become complacient enough to consider that anyone wants a carnival ride, because even if it starts out that way for some - it is far more than that afterwards. I was not given a gift certificate, I had to save $400 to take my first jump, for a single income family that is alot of money. My whole family was there to watch because this is not something that is just taken lightly. More often than not is something that people have always wanted to do, and your responsiblity to the sport is to nuture that love. I dreamed of that day my entire life thus far. Some people come with illness, or at ages that are unspeakable, just to do your sport. They come with a healthy respect for you, why shouldn't you have a healthy respect for them. I was there the day that this incident happened. I jumped after it, and by far was I thinking that this was a carnival ride. It was something to overcome, something to learn about. I asked a million questions, but if you ask my TI he would tell you I would never come back again. Little did he know that I was alreayd planning to come back again and possibly get my liscense if the money works out.

The three people that came with me, even though they saw the worse possible thing happen are already coming back in the spring. Are already talking about doing static line instead of tandem. You don't know who is the next person to come into the sport. Do I think that you should as a student, like you said do the most important part of the whole jump, aside from parachutte deployment, no I don't.

I sure hope that you are the odd man out. Because for most, a skydive is a life changing experience, which since you do it all the time, you would know that. If you have lost the sense of urgency of what a responsiblity you have, then you shouldn't be in the sport anymore. A healthy respect for flying through the sky is more than appropriate. I hope for your sake that you never again say it is a "glorified carnival ride," because its not, and it scares me to think that you are still jumping out of plane.

My father has been flying for over fifty years, and he still takes the same amount of time as probally his first preflight to check and recheck his equipment.

As for the TI and his mistake. He has to live with that the rest of his life. Like was said in a earlier entry - He made a mistake, and if you were there you would know that there is nothing to learn from it, but don't make a low turn ever! Respect the fact that your parachutte is a airplane wing, and when you turn you loose altitude and if you avoid low turns all together, maybe there would be less injuries in the sport or none at all.

Thank you for listening and sorry to clog up your forum. I just needed to speak my mind. No hard feelings.


NotBond  (Student)

Nov 6, 2008, 6:33 AM
Post #10 of 37 (3054 views)
Shortcut
Re: [richard1954] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
The short answer is what are we giving our student?

The safest ride you can. These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride. Isn't it thrill enough to free fall, deploy and land, without adding what is universally understood to be a "risky" maneuver near the ground?

If they seem to be "students," let them pull, play with the toggles, etc. But don't expose them to dangers the SIM says I should never, ever take. Leave that to the hot dogs who risk (usually) only their own lives. Sure, it's okay for many, but for these tandems?

Quote:
A large majority of the people that I've taken on a tandem had no desire to fly the canopy with me for landing, so what happens is that they help me fly the the canopy around until about 1000 ft and they want to sit there while I take care of the landing.

That's typically their choice.

That's a glorified carnival ride. It's what's advertised. It's what they think they're getting.

Quote:
Other TI's have reasons to have the students help flare due to the toggle pressure on some tandem canopies. Sometimes TI's are fatigued and need the help. Sometimes TI's prefer to have the student help so they don't get so fatigued in so few jumps.

So, if I tell my friend he should try a tandem jump, I have to add that the instructor, to whom he's entrusting his life in a situation he doesn't really understand, might be too physically weak or just plain tired to operate the equipment safely without help? If that's true, it should be added to the marketing literature so that the consumer knows as much as possible about the risk they're taking.

Look. I'm obviously onboard for the sport. But I'm obviously not a TI or anything but a new student. But I read the Instructors forum and am not overly stupid. I've jumped a very little. I know it's physically damanding to crank out jumps and deal with the politics of the DZ assignments and all that, and the pleasure in giving good ride. And to be the star.

But most people expect to survive (it's advertised as being safe), and if they don't, to die for some really good reason (within the confines of the sport). A last minute flourish with little room for error seems unncecessary even if it's done okay 10,000 times before it isn't. An error in judgement by the instructor is precisely what I'm trying to avoid by jumping with a professional in the first place.

I understand the perils of misjudgement. I don't think the new tandem person CAN. They don't know anything about it.

I get it. I've done it a little, had the full ground training, landed a few times (never well), and have my eyes wide open. I still don't know why or how, but I accepted it in all it's possible horror.

The average person, I'm sure, sees the tandem as a risk-free (I should say, a professionally mitigated risk) chance to do something really dangerous, and live through it. A carnival ride, whether you let them participate or not. I'm also sure they expect that the sport involves a certain risk they can readily understand, but not that it involves other risks that may or may not be introduced by the instructor. And if they did, I don't think they'd opt for the riskier versions.

Nicely said. Speaking as one of the "riders", that is exactly how I, and my family, saw it - it's a once-in-a-lifetime carnival ride for bragging rights. And I think some of that may come through when they get to the DZ, and the instructors pick up on it.

My first tandem was just a ride, and I was trusting implicitly that my TI would keep me safe and walking away (thanks Brian!). As a paying customer, that's what I expect. The thought that he would do a situationally risky maneuver never even occurred to me (and I an NOT laying blame in this incident - just making a point).

The second one was different. Now, I know I want to do this more, and I realize the risks. It not just shits and grins anymore. I asked to participate, and listened very closely, even though I was still at the mercy of the TI.

My summation would be that TI's need to ask their customers why they are there - for a ride, or to learn something. Then proceed accordingly. But at all times, keep it mild and ultra safe. The passenger/student is entrusting his life to you by virtue of being physically attached. There is pretty much NOTHING he can do to save himself if something goes wrong.


Braz933

Nov 6, 2008, 9:31 AM
Post #11 of 37 (2814 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

----
"Other TI's have reasons to have the students help flare due to the toggle pressure on some tandem canopies. Sometimes TI's are fatigued and need the help. Sometimes TI's prefer to have the student help so they don't get so fatigued in so few jumps."
----

I only have 2 tandems under my belt at this point. The first one was just a "carnival ride." However, I realized I wanted to do it again. In the meantime, I spent a lot of time reading the breakdown of various incidents, and it was clear that many occur under a good canopy. This instilled in me a healthy respect for that portion of the jump. On my second tandem, the TI allowed me to pull and fly the canopy. I must admit that for the very short time I had the toggles, I was very afraid of doing something wrong, so I ended up giving the toggles back after about 30-40 seconds, because the bottom line is...I did not have a clue what I was doing, and did not want to screw it up!

Anyway, as a tandem student\passenger or whatever you want to call us, we trust the TI is ready and able to handle any eventuality. I am shocked by the notion that a TI would be allowing a student to perform any part of the sequence SOLELY for the purpose of avoiding or dealing with fatigue. That is VERY scary.


debussyschild  (Student)

Nov 6, 2008, 10:11 AM
Post #12 of 37 (2738 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Braz933] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
----
"Other TI's have reasons to have the students help flare due to the toggle pressure on some tandem canopies. Sometimes TI's are fatigued and need the help. Sometimes TI's prefer to have the student help so they don't get so fatigued in so few jumps."
----

I only have 2 tandems under my belt at this point. The first one was just a "carnival ride." However, I realized I wanted to do it again. In the meantime, I spent a lot of time reading the breakdown of various incidents, and it was clear that many occur under a good canopy. This instilled in me a healthy respect for that portion of the jump. On my second tandem, the TI allowed me to pull and fly the canopy. I must admit that for the very short time I had the toggles, I was very afraid of doing something wrong, so I ended up giving the toggles back after about 30-40 seconds, because the bottom line is...I did not have a clue what I was doing, and did not want to screw it up!

Anyway, as a tandem student\passenger or whatever you want to call us, we trust the TI is ready and able to handle any eventuality. I am shocked by the notion that a TI would be allowing a student to perform any part of the sequence SOLELY for the purpose of avoiding or dealing with fatigue. That is VERY scary.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge. All that is involved in flaring is pulling the toggles down. On huge canopies like the ones used for tandem jumps, it's understandable that a little extra help with flaring on part of the student can be expected. With good instruction prior and during the jump, the student should be able to get some experience in steering/flaring. This is important if they want to do another tandem or if they want to progress to being able to fly their own canopy. I'm sure if the TI felt that the student was too nervous to carry out canopy steering procedures and keep the canopy under control, he/she would use his best judgment and resume full control over the task. I don't think TI's let the students steer/flare solely so that they won't become fatigued. That would be a careless choice.


debussyschild  (Student)

Nov 6, 2008, 10:22 AM
Post #13 of 37 (2723 views)
Shortcut
Re: [peek] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
These aren't "students." They've got gift certificates for a fun ride.

Are you saying that at this particular dropzone (Orange) they are mere passengers? I see you live in Alexandria. Is this your home dropzone and you know this is the attitude or management?

That would seem strange to me. After all this is the home of the USPA ISP.

I think all beginners in skydiving, whether they plan on doing one tandem for fun or they plan on getting their license, they have to be aware that they do play an active role in their safety and the safety of their instructor. I don't think it's acceptable to just presume that you are absolved of all responsibilities during a jump if you're attached to someone behind you. Tandem jumpers are students: they are learning to jump attached to someone. They should know what to do and what to expect. It's not much to ask and it could save their life if they are willing to help out in flight to a degree that is appropriate for a student. The rest is up to the TI.

Since when does tandem jumping allow for some slack in overall safety awareness?


(This post was edited by debussyschild on Nov 6, 2008, 10:23 AM)


Braz933

Nov 6, 2008, 10:42 AM
Post #14 of 37 (2684 views)
Shortcut
Re: [debussyschild] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know about you, but prior to my tandems, I did not receive any canopy flight training, no emergency procedure training, nothing that could possibly have helped in the event of an emergency, nor should I have been taught any of those things. I was taught exactly what I needed to do, which was arch and maintain it, then lift my legs on landing. EVERYTHING ELSE is the responsibility of the TI. If the TI allows you to pull, steer, etc. in order to enhance the experience for you the student, then fine...but to think that you as a tandem student have any knowledge or ability to "help" the TI is ludicrous.

This is a tragic incident, and my comments here are not meant to reflect at all on the TI involved.


NotBond  (Student)

Nov 6, 2008, 10:58 AM
Post #15 of 37 (2657 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Braz933] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't know about you, but prior to my tandems, I did not receive any canopy flight training, no emergency procedure training, nothing that could possibly have helped in the event of an emergency, nor should I have been taught any of those things. I was taught exactly what I needed to do, which was arch and maintain it, then lift my legs on landing. EVERYTHING ELSE is the responsibility of the TI. If the TI allows you to pull, steer, etc. in order to enhance the experience for you the student, then fine...but to think that you as a tandem student have any knowledge or ability to "help" the TI is ludicrous.

Same here, with the exception of loosening up the harness a bit under canopy. No "this is what will happen if we have a mal", or "you may want to help me with this". It may be particular to the instructor, too. That was my point - I think a lot of TI's probably consider tandems as "rides" as opposed to a learning experience. And that fine - most are. All the more reason to act with extra safety because the person strapped in front of you can be no help in a crisis, and may even become a hindrance (if they freak out, faint, vomit, etc.)

In fairness, my first TI offerred me the toggles under canopy, but I was so queasy and out of my element it was 10 seconds before I even registered what he was saying!

Maybe this conversation needs to be moved to Instructors forum? We're getting interesting viewpoints from both TI's and low jump "near whuffo status" folks......


D_22359  (D 22359)

Nov 6, 2008, 12:57 PM
Post #16 of 37 (2506 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NotBond] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Look we as Tandem Instructors only get a few min. to prep our students so no were not going to give them a full fledged first jump course it's just not practical. Any first Tandem is an introduction to the sport aka "carnival ride" sensory overload is the norm not the excption, almost half my students dont even remember leaving the plane, screaming their heads off for most of the freefall or the camera person who was 2-3' away from them. I personaly let my students fly the canopy around quite often all on their own till we get down to 2000' then we do some practice landings at that time I choose if they will assist with the landing based soley on their reaction and preformance. But I never stop telling them whats going on or why we're doing it. Doing 6-10 tandems a day with a 330-400 sqft canopy and 200lbs or more on your chest will wear you out! Conserve your strength was one of the things I learned way back when... Landing is when you'll need it the most, you only get one shot at it do it right.

As for this Incident from what I've read to this point,
winds did not apear to be an issue 6-10 sounds like a good day to me. The Instructor's experience level still realy hasnt ben answered but some one said he had a couple hundred tandems at their DZ and he did not hook his landings. I would like to know if he made a habit of leaving the laterals un hooked? I do know an Instructor who had a cuff get cought on the lateral durring a turn... At least he had the time to deal with the problem that COULD HAVE HAPPENED HERE. Was this a low 90 or was the turn over 90... could his hand or toggel have ben hung up?

A comment was made that TI's that dont hook (basicaly) didnt have the skill ... BULLSHIT... The Instructors I know dont Hook beacuse it's an extra risk they can eliminate and My job is to reduce the chance of injury to my student. If an Instructor is willing to hook their student's in to landing then thats their choice but they will sooner or later end up right here in the same forum and the fact is ... EVERY ONE FUCK'S UP SOMETIME's Your the one that's going to have to live with the results (if your lucky). But hell every skydiver is full of shit anyway so you choose what risk your willing to take with some one elses life and I'll play it as safe as I can.

Bill


(This post was edited by D_22359 on Nov 6, 2008, 1:11 PM)


NotBond  (Student)

Nov 6, 2008, 1:06 PM
Post #17 of 37 (2494 views)
Shortcut
Re: [D_22359] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Look we as Tandem Instructors only get a few min. to prep our students so no were not going to give them a full fledged first jump course it's just not practical. Any first Tandem is an introduction to the sport aka "carnival ride" sensory overload is the norm not the excption, almost half my students dont even remember leaving the plane, screaming their heads off for most of the freefall or the camera person who was 2-3' away from them. I personaly let my students fly the canopy around quite often all on their own till we get down to 2000' then we do some practice landings at that time I choose if they will assist with the landing based soley on their reaction and preformance. But I never stop telling them whats going on or why we're doing it.

Bill, please do not take my comments as an insult to TI's. Far from it, you guys go way beyond the call, putting up with us geeky air riders just so we can puff out our chest on the ground and look cool to our friends - (and maybe quietly barf in the bathroom Tongue Not me, though!)

I understand completly where you are coming from. I don't know if I would spend that much extra time going over harness details, mals, this and that, UNLESS the "rider" shows a genuine interest - or comes back a second time, like I did.

Out of curiosity, if I came back to you as a second tandem, what would you teach me?


(This post was edited by NotBond on Nov 6, 2008, 1:08 PM)


D_22359  (D 22359)

Nov 6, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #18 of 37 (2465 views)
Shortcut
Re: [NotBond] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Typicaly we go over how to turn and fly your body , then a lot more detail on canopy controll and flying the parachute. As for EP's I wont tell a student anything abought that till they are in a first jump course. I think the canopy work is the one place a Tandem instructor can help a new jumper the most.
But like I said all skydivers are full of shit I'm no different. Take every thing on this site with a grain of salt, it's your ass.

Bill


klingeme  (D 24728)

Nov 6, 2008, 1:30 PM
Post #19 of 37 (2438 views)
Shortcut
Re: [popsjumper] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Unfortunately, yes, tandem has come to be, in the general public's viewpoint, as merely a "carnival ride".

A lot of that came about because TIs treated it as such.

You know, tandem can be an introduction into the sport of skydiving. We have Tandem Progression training methods for that.

If you are merely giving people a joyride, you are short-changing our sport and the student.

Every tandem student is a potential skydiver. TIs, IMHO, should be handling them as such right up front and what better way than to let them get actively involved in the jump as opposed to simply being a paying passenger?

Wear an altimeter!
Wear a jumpsuit!
Fly your body!
Pull!
Fly the canopy!

The only thing I wouldn't agree with is student assistance on landing that first one. TIs that do that need to be super aware and super ready for the student to do the wrong thing at the worst possible time...flaring for landing.

One other note to circumvent your comeback...yes, it's recognized that some tandem students want no part of having anything to do with the jump other than going along for the ride. Accomodate them, smile, hand them their certificate, prompt them to tell their friends what a thrill they had, invite them to hang around, and smile.

But this would involve extra time and back to backs would not be possible if the TI's actually have to talk to the students before they head to the plane. DZs have to want to have the students learn something and return for AFF and that could cut the amount of tandem passengers (not students) they can throw in a day.

I personally went throught the IAF progression and learned a lot during those first 3 tandems, and it made me want to finish the program. Several years and 1300 jumps later, I'm glad the instructors took the extra time.

Mark Klingelhoefer

Edited to add:
BTW, this is not meant as an opinion of how SD Orange operates, meerly an observation of what I've seen at several of the DZs I've visited.


(This post was edited by klingeme on Nov 6, 2008, 1:46 PM)


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 6, 2008, 2:16 PM
Post #20 of 37 (2367 views)
Shortcut
Re: [D_22359] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A comment was made that TI's that dont hook (basicaly) didnt have the skill ... BULLSHIT... The Instructors I know dont Hook beacuse it's an extra risk they can eliminate

I agree.

I'm an avid swooper and have (and will continue) to compete on the national level. I don't hook my tandems. I'll use a carving turn that can be bailed out from; however, I'm not a big fan of the full on toggle hook with a tandem.


livendive  (D 21415)

Nov 6, 2008, 4:12 PM
Post #21 of 37 (2261 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Braz933] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
----
Anyway, as a tandem student\passenger or whatever you want to call us, we trust the TI is ready and able to handle any eventuality. I am shocked by the notion that a TI would be allowing a student to perform any part of the sequence SOLELY for the purpose of avoiding or dealing with fatigue. That is VERY scary.

When I first started doing tandems, we had very large canopies with very high toggle pressure. As a result, I had to have my students help me land in order to be able to go back up. My personal rule was I would call it a day when I felt too fatigued to flare by myself if necessary. Most times that I did end up having to flare the 500 by myself, it ended my day. Today, we have much better parachutes and I've shifted from always making my student help me land to rarely letting my student help me land. Still, if I've got lots of students scheduled on a hot summer day, I'll let the student fly around up high just to conserve my energy, so I don't run into a fatigue problem later. Are you suggesting there's something wrong with trying to keep some gas in the tank for later?

Blues,
Dave


Braz933

Nov 6, 2008, 10:23 PM
Post #22 of 37 (2025 views)
Shortcut
Re: [livendive] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

---
"Are you suggesting there's something wrong with trying to keep some gas in the tank for later?"
---

Not at all. I should have worded it differently. I guess it is just very scary for me to think that my TI may be fatigued and unable to physically make a safe landing, and is therefore relying on me to help him. Does that make sense?

I just know that when I did my jumps, every possible thought went through my head as to what could go wrong with the TI, let alone the equipment. I thought..what if he has a heart attack, what if he is secretly a drug user, and just did a few lines and freaks out during the jump, what if ...etc...but fatigue never crossed my mind. As a student, I just want to believe that the person I am jumping with is 10 feet tall, and bullet proof, able to handle anything. If I can't convince myself of that, I'm not jumping. That is the level of trust. It is truly blind faith.

As far as I am concerned, TI's are right up there with surgeons in terms of how much trust we place in you.


kuai43  (C License)

Nov 6, 2008, 10:36 PM
Post #23 of 37 (2018 views)
Shortcut
Re: [Braz933] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
---
"Are you suggesting there's something wrong with trying to keep some gas in the tank for later?"
---

In reply to:
Not at all. I should have worded it differently.
...just did a few lines and freaks out during the jump, is 10 feet tall, and bullet proof, able to handle anything...

You've met Dave? Wink


Liemberg  (Student)

Nov 7, 2008, 9:24 AM
Post #24 of 37 (1868 views)
Shortcut
Re: [AggieDave] Giving toggles to students? Was: Fatality - Skydive Orange [In reply to] Can't Post

While there is good reason to give every student the toggles prior to the last stage before landing, there is even better reason to have them let go of the toggles shortly before landing.
Anyone of you ever tried to flare a tandem main canopy with a strong and muscular male student that turned deaf in an instant and held on to the toggles with his armes "frozen" and stretched way up?

Interesting, don't you think? Crazy

(Just like with other students who screw up, tandempassengers also seem to come in two "flavors", i.e. the ones that screw up during the falling part and the others that screw up during the landing part. I don't know why that is but consider it to be a fact, based on MY experience...)


If you are unable to flare the canopy by yourself maybe you are making one tandemjump too many today... Blush

OTOH if you don't particularly enjoy being barfed upon, it is a good habit to INSIST that your student / passenger helps you steer above 500 ft. It is no guarantee, but people who steer / help steering anticipate the movements of the canopy and don't get sick that easely. Besides, while saving your strenght for the landing, you'll also have your camerahand free and the image doesn't shake that much... Cool

YMMV


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Nov 7, 2008, 9:48 AM
Post #25 of 37 (1854 views)
Shortcut
Re: [richard1954] Fatality - Skydive Orange - November 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
But most people expect to survive (it's advertised as being safe)

Skydiving IS NOT SAFE. Tandem skydiving IS NOT SAFE. Those who advertise it as such are flat out lying to people so they can make money.


First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Safety and Training

 


Search for (options)