Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
You're below 1500ft, and...

 

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Poll: You're below 1500ft, and...
Above 1000: Cut Away>>>Deploy Reserve 75 / 33%
Above 1000: Deploy Reserve 12 / 5%
Below 1000: Cut Away>>>Deploy Reserve 31 / 14%
Below 1000: Deploy Reserve 41 / 18%
Kick Out: Even for a couple seconds. 69 / 30%
228 total votes
 
aresye  (B 31421)

Oct 17, 2008, 10:58 PM
Post #1 of 39 (2986 views)
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You're below 1500ft, and... Can't Post

You spin up into line twists for whatever reason. Let's say it's just a few twists, like 2-3. What would you do?

I would like to think, that at such a low altitude, I would immediately cut away, and deploy my reserve, assuming I was above 1000. If below, well, FJC taught me to just deploy my reserve, and get as much fabric out as possible.

This is obviously a very serious situation to be found in, and completely avoidable. I'm interested in hearing from experts, and new jumpers alike, on what courses of action they would take in this kind of situation.


mdrejhon  (C 3268)

Oct 17, 2008, 11:43 PM
Post #2 of 39 (2949 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Easy answer...Students and novices should consider EP that they're taught for this situation.

Complicated answer....I think it really depends on the size of canopy, your familiarity to its behaviour in linetwists, your experience level.

- Non-spinning linetwists on a 1.0 or 1.1WL square canopy, is easy to kick out in just a couple seconds. (most of the time, anyway)
- Spinning linetwists on highly loaded ellipticals often escalate to the point where they are impossible to kick out.
- Lightly loaded canopies in non-spinning linetwists are typically landable with a good PLF (and people have landed under them before, such as under a low reserve deployment. Or BASE jumpers. It's possible to land linetwists without injury.) It's a slow-speed mal.
- landing a highly loaded canopy under spinning linetwists is easily fatal. They ROCKET down with fast altitude loss, to the point that they're considered a high-speed mal.

So thus, no easy answer. Although I don't BASE, I know that BASE jumpers are forced to land linetwists here and there, and often able to get away with it with no injury... (albiet still high potential for injury, especially with lack of control of canopy and landing in a bad spot)

The easy catchall is students should just go to EP's and 'listen to instructor'. But once you have hundreds of jumps, you get familiar with your canopy's ease of recovery from linetwists and set your own comfort levels, if you immediately recognize the severity linetwists as something similiar to one you quickly recovered from many times in the past.

Sometimes it's not avoidable. You're in a bigway outer, where your mandated pull altitude is "no higher than 2500 feet", starting deployment right on cue but that you end up with a longer-than-expected snivel that ends up under spinning linetwists under 1500 feet. Even the best packjobs can mal inexplicably... Or you got another packer to pack for you. Perhaps that packer forgot to skip rolling the nose on a Pilot 150, and it snivelled 1000+ feet...

Once, I found myself at approx 1900 feet under 360 degree linetwists. (bigway event, asked to pull at 2500, pulled in track, and opening was a little weird on one jump) Vigorously kicked out by 1800 feet. I do fly a Sabre 170 at WL of 1.15 and always successfully kick out of linetwists successfully in the past on this canopy -- so if I see severity of my linetwists to be less than the worst linetwists I've ever had, then it's really nobrainer. That led to my instant no-brainer automatic decision to just kick it out (three quick scissor kicks while spreading risers, and I was all done). If I noticed no progress during 100-200 feet of altitude loss, I'd have begun to consider EP. Or if I had only 10 jumps with that severe-enough twists at such a low altitude never having been in linetwists before, or if I was flying a highly loaded elliptical that warrants a near-immediate EP to truly save my life.

Disclaimer: Go with the easy answer: What you've already been taught at your dropzone. Don't listen to me.


(This post was edited by mdrejhon on Oct 18, 2008, 12:11 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Oct 18, 2008, 12:18 AM
Post #3 of 39 (2922 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You spin up into line twists for whatever reason. Let's say it's just a few twists, like 2-3. What would you do?

I've chopped spinning malfunctions with as little as 1.5 pounds per square foot and had more airspeed than after a Cessna exit. You want to cutaway immediately if you're low, especially since you may be ending up with reserve line twists.

Below 800 feet dump first and hope for the best because a cutway is going to be iffy.

OTOH, with a really big canopy you can PLF with the brakes stowed and not have any issues and are better off keeping it.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Oct 18, 2008, 12:23 AM)


jclalor  (B 33202)

Oct 18, 2008, 12:39 AM
Post #4 of 39 (2911 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is probably a stupid question: How does one determine their rate of decent while under anything but a good conopy?
After 80 jumps I have never had line twist so I am a bit nervous on this one, wish I would get some just to get it behind me.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Oct 18, 2008, 12:47 AM
Post #5 of 39 (2912 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You spin up into line twists
Self induced: Performance maneuvers under canopy can be a lot of fun but it is important that jumpers understand that making such maneuvers can induce a situation that makes a functioning canopy overhead unsafe to land. General rule of thumb is not to make performance maneuvers beneath an altitude you are not willing to cutaway from - I.E. your hard deck/decision altitude as recommended by the U.S.P.A.. Have fun up high, and once beneath your decision altitude, then this is a great time to practice more docile maneuvers like slow flight/flat turns which is an important skill to learn.

Altitude awareness: It is critically important that a jumper maintain altitude awareness when dealing with a potentially fixable partial malfunction. The first step in dealing with any such situation should be as part of a jumpers training is an altitude check and constant awareness of. Continued training after student status is critical and often overlooked by "experienced" jumpers.

Sacrificial lamb: Seems like every year one or two jumpers make this mistake, they either self induce linetwists at a low altitude or lose altitude awareness when dealing with a low speed partial malfunction they are trying to fix. It is unfortunate that some jumpers are injured or killed making such mistakes, but we can use these instances as examples to learn from and to teach others safe skydiving practices.
Your signature line says it all, I like it Either learn from your mistakes or someone else will.


aresye  (B 31421)

Oct 18, 2008, 11:14 AM
Post #6 of 39 (2793 views)
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Re: [AFFI] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Good replies, and we seem to have a wide range of answers.

I asked this question, because my buddy called me a few days ago, talking to me about this same situation. I personally believe he got very lucky, given his experience level, and type of parachute he was flying.

He borrowed a rig from someone at the DZ, since there were no more rentals that had the size he wanted (170). The parachute he was loaned was a semi-elliptical I believe, which given his wingloading (1.25), is way above his experience level for just a little bit over 100 jumps.

He self-induced line twists as a result of flying the canopy the same he would an ordinary square at approx. 1200ft. He kicked out by 700ft, after only a couple rotations of the spinning line twist malfunction.

Had I been under a new canopy that has different flight characteristics than what I'm used to, at a higher wing loading, I would have immediately cutaway. I consider my friend very lucky, and he does too, that he was able to kick out of them.

*I'm not entirely sure if the parachute was semi-elliptical. My friend did tell me it was not a normal square.


(This post was edited by aresye on Oct 18, 2008, 11:16 AM)


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 18, 2008, 12:16 PM
Post #7 of 39 (2774 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

After my canopy collision at <100ft agl, I was in line twists. I kicked out and landed.

Picture:
http://www.dropzone.com/...nt;postatt_id=63190;


Premier rwieder  (C 32349)

Oct 18, 2008, 4:05 PM
Post #8 of 39 (2710 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

First thing is you shouldn't allow yourself to be at 1K with line twist. But if for some wierd reason you are in that position and it"s just 2 twist, kick out, Just attempt one time to kick out. Then swap canopies. Have your alternative landing area spotted before chopping. Be aware of the wind direction. Look at a pond, lake, tree liimbs, anything that will indicate which way the wid is coming from. Being at 1K with line twist ain't cool.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2008, 5:11 PM
Post #9 of 39 (2682 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
He self-induced line twists as a result of flying the canopy the same he would an ordinary square

So what you're saying is, your buddy flies a square (and this borrowed canopy) like a retard.

If you are smooth on the controls, and enter and exit turns in a controlled fashion, you won't ever spin your self into line twists.

If you honk down on a toggle like it was a fishing pole, and you're trying to set a hook into a swordfish, then yeah, your stuff will spin up.

Why anyone would do this at any altitude is beyond me. Why anyone would do this at an alittude where they (and the other canopies in the sky) should be entering the pattern is just plain unsafe.

As far as what to do? Who knows, each situation is different. Do something, and try not to get hurt.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 18, 2008, 7:24 PM
Post #10 of 39 (2627 views)
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Re: [davelepka] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

well this is what this guy did!!!!!!!

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=6847&string=marko


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 18, 2008, 7:31 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Oct 18, 2008, 8:18 PM
Post #11 of 39 (2595 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Well then, that guy flies like a retard too.

I never said it was not possible, what I said was that it would take a deliberate effort to spin yourself into linetwists, and that it was easy to avoid the situation all together.


AFFI  (D 25538)

Oct 18, 2008, 10:36 PM
Post #12 of 39 (2546 views)
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Re: [davelepka] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

YUP...

Sacrificial lamb...



But then again, maybe not...


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 19, 2008, 6:58 AM
Post #13 of 39 (2494 views)
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Re: [davelepka] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well then, that guy flies like a retard too.

I never said it was not possible, what I said was that it would take a deliberate effort to spin yourself into linetwists, and that it was easy to avoid the situation all together.

I agree 100% Side note I didnt say you said anything. I just posted a video of the situation you are talking about


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 19, 2008, 11:54 AM)


markovwgti  (D 29993)

Oct 19, 2008, 10:22 AM
Post #14 of 39 (2458 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

jerry you suck


jakee  (C License)

Oct 19, 2008, 1:10 PM
Post #15 of 39 (2415 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You spin up into line twists for whatever reason. Let's say it's just a few twists, like 2-3. What would you do?

What I did was kick out of them, because my canopy was flying straight and level.


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Oct 20, 2008, 6:20 AM
Post #16 of 39 (2259 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Id do what that other dude said on another thread and start pulling my steering toggles to fix the twists faster (i think he wrote the lower toggle would be the correct one to pull).

Only because i read it on dz.com though, and im glad i did, it may save my life one day Laugh


AFFI  (D 25538)

Oct 20, 2008, 6:44 AM
Post #17 of 39 (2243 views)
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Re: [Andy_Copland] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
start pulling my steering toggles to fix the twists faster
WHAT?


aresye  (B 31421)

Oct 20, 2008, 9:54 AM
Post #18 of 39 (2198 views)
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Re: [Andy_Copland] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

That was format, wasn't it?


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Oct 20, 2008, 10:44 AM
Post #19 of 39 (2167 views)
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Re: [Andy_Copland] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

That's a first for me. I never heard of anyone teaching to un-stowe toggles in a line twist.


(This post was edited by ozzy13 on Oct 20, 2008, 10:46 AM)


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Oct 20, 2008, 10:44 AM
Post #20 of 39 (2167 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tongue in cheek joke guys, calm down Tongue


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Oct 20, 2008, 10:48 AM
Post #21 of 39 (2161 views)
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Re: [ozzy13] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...in%20toggle;#3302721


Fast  (D 28237)

Oct 20, 2008, 11:40 AM
Post #22 of 39 (2127 views)
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Re: [AFFI] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

If I found myself at 1500 feet under line twists, i would cut the fuck away right away. I jump a velocity, that's a deadly place to be with linetwists. I have a skyhook too, hope it works. 1500 feet is the lowest I would cutaway. After that, pull reserve straight away. 1500ft is a bad number to use in an example cause its the lowest a lot of people are willing to cutaway. A lot of experienced jumpers I know have harddecks that range from 1500 to 2000 feet, depending on age, experience and canopy choice.


feuergnom  (D License)

Oct 20, 2008, 12:05 PM
Post #23 of 39 (2107 views)
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Re: [aresye] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You spin up into line twists for whatever reason etcetc

simple answer: don't do this, for what ever reason Unimpressed


aresye  (B 31421)

Oct 20, 2008, 12:17 PM
Post #24 of 39 (2095 views)
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Re: [feuergnom] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't put myself in a situation for it to happen, but this is skydiving, and shit can happen unexpectedly at anytime. A person can shrug off a question like this easily, saying, "Well, I don't need to worry about that, I use flat turns, and easy inputs below 1500ft." So what happens when that person starts their downwind, and another person on a highly loaded canopy clips the edge of theirs, and throws it into twists? That person is now unprepared to handle that situation.

As skydivers, we must acknowledge that anything unexpected can happen at any time, and that we must train ourselves through a wide range of scenarios, even the unlikely.

I am very gentle on my inputs when below 2000ft. I practice flat turns, braked turns, as I set myself up for my pattern. The possibility of me being thrown into twists is very unlikely, but I'd like to be prepared for the situation, should it arise for any reason.


catfishhunter  (D 28796)

Oct 20, 2008, 12:24 PM
Post #25 of 39 (2090 views)
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Re: [Fast] You're below 1500ft, and... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If I found myself at 1500 feet under line twists, i would cut the fuck away right away. I jump a velocity, that's a deadly place to be with linetwists. I have a skyhook too, hope it works. 1500 feet is the lowest I would cutaway. After that, pull reserve straight away. 1500ft is a bad number to use in an example cause its the lowest a lot of people are willing to cutaway. A lot of experienced jumpers I know have harddecks that range from 1500 to 2000 feet, depending on age, experience and canopy choice.

I'm confused are you saying there are people that if they find themselves with an unlandable canopy below 1500' they will ride that fucker in? I don't think you mean that do you?

As for pulling silver straight away below 1500' feet if your in freefall good job if you have a Canopy with line twist above your head what are you going to do with it after you pulled silver? Pray the fucker doesn't tangle with the reserve you just dumped? if you are going to give advice follow it all the way through


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