Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Should people be banned for doing hookturns in certain places?

 

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CrazyL  (D 17699)

Sep 30, 2008, 9:42 PM
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Should people be banned for doing hookturns in certain places? Can't Post

  As an avid aggressive hookturner for over 15 years i've been good at hookturns. Been grounded for doing hookturns years ago. Probably saved my life and/or medical expenses. Been banned at 4 dz's the reasonfor each dz is hookturns. 2nd dz I was banned at called and invited me to their 1st ever pond swoop meet 3 years after being banned, won a canopy, sweet, had my freedom back, sweet. 3rd dz I was banned at had swoop week 8 years later, could'nt go 'cause i'm banned for life for hookturns 8 years ago. The latest dz this past June the dzm called me and said 'so, tell me about your little hookturn over the pond' ? Couple of minutes later it's 'your not welcomed at this dz anymore'. So, what are these dz's condoning here? So what should I do, stop doing 'little hookturns over the swoop pond'? stop doing hookturns? I'm so dang addicted to the hookturn, should I stop skydiving? Should I hop on the banned wagon and condone the banning of hookturns and the people that do them? I have yet to cause injury or death to anyone from doing hookturns and/or skydiving over 6,000 times. Should I only jump at dz's that fully understand that skydiving may cause serious injury or death? What about the waiver, I signed it, medical insurance, got it and 4 other types of insurance. Also got 6 canopies that are excellent technological advancements so I can enjoy hookturns when I skydive. What to do...


(This post was edited by billvon on Oct 2, 2008, 8:53 AM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Sep 30, 2008, 9:54 PM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

HMMMM, I think there may be some other important information missing in your history description. Perhaps there is more to this story than just simple hookturns? From your description, I am thinking the old phrase "right time and place" might apply as well as "not only a danger to himself but to those around him" to describe why you've been banned at said DZs. Am I off or do you care to elaborate further?


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Sep 30, 2008, 10:10 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

'Right time and place' happened at the last dz. There was a fatality in the landing area. I came no closer than 200' to the fatality. DZM had alot on his plate. The 1st dz, c;early for doing hookturns and hookturns only. Not sure they had ever seen a hookturn, but they knew they did'nt like them. As a skydiver your phrase ' not only a danger to himself/herself but to those around him/her' would apply to every jumper would'nt it. Skydiving is dangerous. People freefall into things like homie did. He bounced closer to the airplanes and cars and people than I came to him, the airplanes, the cars, the people. Jumpers run into other jumpers. Just 2 weekends ago I saw 3 canopies collied, all 3 jumpers were still above the ground High enough to get jacked, no one got grounded or banned. A jumper with 200 or so jumps landed opposite the landing pattern, would've been no big deal had his lines not caught my buddies face and ripping some of my buddies face off. A TM at the last dz I got banned at flew so close to the main packing area and crashed in a student breaking the students ankle, no grounding, no banning. The next post i'll elaborate on the other dz's. so yes , you are well, a little bit on but pretty far off.


(This post was edited by CrazyL on Sep 30, 2008, 10:11 PM)


mrbiceps  (D License)

Sep 30, 2008, 11:59 PM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

The way i see it any licenced skydiver has been warned about the dangers of making low turns close to the ground. Apparantly they are the biggest killer of skydivers. Im not into low hook turns. You obviously love them mate and the fact that you have survived over 6000 jumps proves that u know what u are doing. I say that as long as you dont endanger other jumpers you go right ahead and do your hook turns. You know the dangers and you are happy to take that risk then good luck to you.


mjosparky  (D 5476)

Oct 1, 2008, 12:12 AM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Larry,

I dont think that hook turns should be banned. But some of the people that do hook turns should be banned. Like all forms of human behavior there will always be the small percentage that cant seem to get their head out of their ass. Believe it or not there are people who get banned from bowling alleys for inappropriate behavior. The bottom line is its the DZOs crib. What he says goes.

Sparky


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 5:15 AM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you're way over-engineering this. (But I loved the phrase "banned wagon" Laugh ). As Sparky said, it's the DZO's crib. What higher-risk jumpers seem to forget, when they bitch about conservative DZO's, is that when there's a fatality, it's not just on the jumper who goes in, it's also on the DZO that has to deal with the aftermath. And that aftermath can be considerable: bad press, lawsuits, trouble with the local cops & govt, lawsuits, hostility from the neighbors, lawsuits. Of course you have the right to choose your own risk level, as we all do. But the DZO also has the right to choose how much risk HE is willing to take that HE will have to deal with a fatality. It's really that simple.


kallend  (D 23151)

Oct 1, 2008, 5:41 AM
Post #7 of 92 (2809 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

You can always open your own DZ and make rules you like.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Oct 1, 2008, 5:58 AM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

You wouldn't be banned for life if you followed the rules. (GASP, OH NO!! FOLLOWING THE RULES?!!!!)

It doesn't sound like hook turning is banning you. Hook turning when the DZO doesn't want you to or when/where it isn't appropriate is getting you banned. There are a few places that either used to ban or have banned hook turns in general because they're killing people.

Plenty of opportunity to do high performance landings. But hooking it becaue you HAVE TO is the wrong answer.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Oct 1, 2008, 8:31 AM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears from your posts that you hookturned without first checking with the DZO on what the rules are. Each DZ is different. The rules have tightened up a lot in some places after the Dublin, GA debacle last year.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Oct 1, 2008, 9:55 AM
Post #10 of 92 (2647 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
'Right time and place' happened at the last dz. There was a fatality in the landing area. I came no closer than 200' to the fatality. DZM had alot on his plate.

You don't think this speaks loudly for less-than-rational judgement?


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:02 PM
Post #11 of 92 (2574 views)
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Re: [DSE] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
'Right time and place' happened at the last dz. There was a fatality in the landing area. I came no closer than 200' to the fatality. DZM had alot on his plate.

You don't think this speaks loudly for less-than-rational judgement?

Not really, I think it speaks for not precisely wording his posts, so the readers here, can understand the true feelings he's trying to portray. ... read my sigline.

The sentence doesn't sound right. If there's a dead guy on the ground, and larry was landing, chances are he was on the same load and larry wasn't in the way of someone who just hammered in.

Hey CrazyL, are you the same Crazy Larry who likes to wear colorful clothing?


(This post was edited by hookitt on Oct 1, 2008, 1:04 PM)


MagicGuy  (D 30470)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #12 of 92 (2554 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just curious, what degree of hook turns are you doing? Just going by jump numbers I'm going to assume 270 or greater..?


chuckakers  (D 10855)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:49 PM
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Your screen name may hold a clue to your being banned. Wink


JohnDeere  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:49 PM
Post #14 of 92 (2518 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hey CrazyL, are you the same Crazy Larry who likes to wear colorful clothing?

That would probally be the same one!

Hey lary you know you are welcomed here at SDD. You have lots of friens hereWink


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:53 PM
Post #15 of 92 (2517 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As an avid aggressive hookturner for over 15 years i've been good at hookturns. Been grounded for doing hookturns years ago. Probably saved my life and/or medical expenses. Been banned at 4 dz's the reasonfor each dz is hookturns. 2nd dz I was banned at called and invited me to their 1st ever pond swoop meet 3 years after being banned, won a canopy, sweet, had my freedom back, sweet. 3rd dz I was banned at had swoop week 8 years later, could'nt go 'cause i'm banned for life for hookturns 8 years ago. The latest dz this past June the dzm called me and said 'so, tell me about your little hookturn over the pond' ? Couple of minutes later it's 'your not welcomed at this dz anymore'. So, what are these dz's condoning here? So what should I do, stop doing 'little hookturns over the swoop pond'? stop doing hookturns? I'm so dang addicted to the hookturn, should I stop skydiving? Should I hop on the banned wagon and condone the banning of hookturns and the people that do them? I have yet to cause injury or death to anyone from doing hookturns and/or skydiving over 6,000 times. Should I only jump at dz's that fully understand that skydiving may cause serious injury or death? What about the waiver, I signed it, medical insurance, got it and 4 other types of insurance. Also got 6 canopies that are excellent technological advancements so I can enjoy hookturns when I skydive. What to do...

The way I see it, if a problem arises with one person/DZ, it's a fluke, shit happens. But when you describe being banned from 4 DZs due to hook turns, it's no longer a fluke, it's a trend. The common theme in the story is you, so instead of casting blame on the DZs that banned you, might be better to figure out exactly why you are being banned from so many places and address the issue in a constructive manner.

Oh, and about this:
Quote:
I have yet to cause injury or death to anyone from doing hookturns and/or skydiving over 6,000 times.

I bet Danny Page could have said something similar too. See how well that worked out.Unsure Jump numbers don't mean you're infallable and they won't save you.


format  (B 15348)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:55 PM
Post #16 of 92 (2516 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

1989., they haven't been invented a law against my way...
and I've made 20% of $2.5M.
- at the time, there wasn't anybody for me to discuss with...
...but there is a law today.

I can't guess why Larry is interested in anybody's opignion
but there's no chance WE are of ANY help to him...
'cause vr not there Unsure

so why, Oh why, Larry?.. are you asking us?


ifell  (C 3591)

Oct 1, 2008, 2:35 PM
Post #17 of 92 (2478 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

You could land off and do whatever the hell you want... 15 minute walk would be the price to pay but freedom is pricelessWink


DON321  (D 30200)

Oct 1, 2008, 2:39 PM
Post #18 of 92 (2472 views)
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Re: [ifell] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

"CRAZYL" Man let it go about the hookturns your in every post ranting about how its not fair, dude!!! if you dont like the rules open your own dz and make your own rules

it seems like half the skydiving fatalitys are all low turn realted some way or another
seems like we found a slight way to minimize the fatality rate "NO LOW TURNS" sounds fair to me

i dont hookturn so i really dont worry about it, if its your cup of tea and you dont get me killed while your doing it im cool with it, if your hurt or kill yourself...well that was your choice, i think your missing the point of what everyone is saying here...
kill yourself doing stupid things not others in the process this may be the reason you have been banned so many times....
dont get me wrong i dont want to see anyone hurt or killed enjoying this sport but skydiving is a safe as we make it.....


format  (B 15348)

Oct 1, 2008, 3:39 PM
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Re: [DON321] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

i think your missing the point of what everyone is saying here
In reply to:

Not everyone.

There are guys who are xtremly xtreme and safe:
at the same time.
Who's to say I'm full of it?

Let's wait some years and see.
_____________________________________
meantime I don't see what he's looking for


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 4:40 PM
Post #20 of 92 (2407 views)
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Re: [JohnDeere] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Hey CrazyL, are you the same Crazy Larry who likes to wear colorful clothing?

That would probally be the same one!

Hey lary you know you are welcomed here at SDD. You have lots of friens hereWink

If that's the case, then his landing approaches are fine unless he really did go crazy.


Andy_Copland  (A 105852)

Oct 1, 2008, 4:47 PM
Post #21 of 92 (2397 views)
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Re: [hookitt] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
read my sigline.

Now why on earth would you listen to anything that lanky bastard says Laugh


hookitt  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 4:56 PM
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Re: [Andy_Copland] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
read my sigline.

Now why on earth would you listen to anything that lanky bastard says Laugh

Every now and then, grand wisdom is spoken through the mouths of fools.


NovaTTT  (D 17887)

Oct 1, 2008, 5:55 PM
Post #23 of 92 (2366 views)
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Re: [format] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1989., they haven't been invented a law against my way...
and I've made 20% of $2.5M.
- at the time, there wasn't anybody for me to discuss with...
...but there is a law today.

I can't guess why Larry is interested in anybody's opignion
but there's no chance WE are of ANY help to him...
'cause vr not there Unsure

so why, Oh why, Larry?.. are you asking us?


What??


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Oct 1, 2008, 6:43 PM
Post #24 of 92 (2342 views)
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Re: [kallend] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You can always open your own DZ and make rules you like.
I did abide by the rules. At this dz there is an ' anything goes' rule over the pond area. I followed the rules. The rest of the rules from the FAA, I followed to the T. The dz policies and rules, I followed them too. The BSR's I broke one. In the BSR's I could'nt find anywhere in there that a jumper should 'loosen' their chest strap while skydiving. I did loosen my chest strap for hookturning and swooping.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Oct 1, 2008, 7:01 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] Hookturns banned? Should hookturns be banned? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
HMMMM, I think there may be some other important information missing in your history description. Perhaps there is more to this story than just simple hookturns? From your description, I am thinking the old phrase "right time and place" might apply as well as "not only a danger to himself but to those around him" to describe why you've been banned at said DZs. Am I off or do you care to elaborate further?
Yes, more info on this latest banning in June. Per the conversation with the dzm, 1st thing he said of importance besides asking if he was talking to (add my name) 'tell me about your little hookturn over the pond' I ask him ' what do you want to know?' he said why did you do it. I said ' the area was clear so I did like the four previous jumps that morning and swooped the pond. he says 'I know you shot video, don't you know he's got two kids' then he accused me of posting such video on the internet. That made me pretty mad. What an insult. I probably would've never thought of posting any video of dead people or people dying on the internet. I thought he was a sick f---k-r for even saying such crap. Then I was told that i'm no longer welcome at his dz. This dzm had also recently had a heart attack and doctors orders he could not jump that day. Prior to that he and his now ex-wife got a divorce. He needed to take the shit out on somebody. The week prior to this hookturn/ fatality that were really unrelated the dzm's cronies were calling me to shoot their 6 way meet. I was already on a team. By friday they had me going with 3 teams, I shot 2. The week prior to that the dzo called me and ask for my help in getting the goods for his advertised foam party. Since I work in Hollywood he thought I was the man for this. I hooked him up with the right people and he failed. I had the deal down from just over $5,000 to just over $2000 and he could trade out some for tandems. He choked and blamed me. I was not even gettiing a thing out of this deal. Just wasted my time. There you go, the facts for 3 weeks prior to me being banned. There really is'nt any more facts prior to and up to the banning of me at this dz.


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