Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
Pros & Cons of M.A.R.D (Was: Skyhook Activation Stories)

 

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eric.fradet

Sep 29, 2008, 7:03 AM
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Pros & Cons of M.A.R.D (Was: Skyhook Activation Stories) Can't Post

Added by slotperfect - this is a spinoff of this thread: http://www.dropzone.com/...orum_view_collapsed;

Worked out nicely.

Is it that you call worked out nicely !
All I can see it is a reserve with a twisted lineset coming from the turning main canopy opening inertia , looks quite unsafe to me !
unfortunatly this is one many inconvenients existing with any MARD., the first move from most of the skydivers I know having experimented this type of issue, is to.....disconnect the Skyhook, first time I see a happy one !


(This post was edited by slotperfect on Sep 30, 2008, 12:59 PM)


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Sep 29, 2008, 7:14 AM
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Re: [eric.fradet] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
All I can see it is a reserve with a twisted lineset coming from the turning main canopy opening inertia , looks quite unsafe to me !
Having a full twist on a stable, flying reserve is not a big deal. Kicking them out would take less altitude than opening after more delay without Skyhook.

I think a canopy with a linetwist flies better than a reserve still in freebag.Wink


chris74  (No 568073)

Sep 29, 2008, 12:41 PM
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Re: [eric.fradet] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

After the Vigil ,the Skyhook is your new target ?


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Sep 29, 2008, 12:45 PM
Post #4 of 107 (4775 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

TSO tests require the reserve to be packed with three full twists in the lines (3 x 360 degrees), right below the slider. The reserve must be functional and untwisted withing a few seconds. So, what is the problem here?


airtwardo  (D License)

Sep 29, 2008, 12:50 PM
Post #5 of 107 (4769 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
TSO tests require the reserve to be packed with three full twists in the lines (3 x 360 degrees), right below the slider. The reserve must be functional and untwisted withing a few seconds. So, what is the problem here?


Yeah...ya got the whole rest of your life to get it open and flying, what's the problem?! Crazy


Premier skydiverek  (C 41769)

Sep 29, 2008, 12:54 PM
Post #6 of 107 (4767 views)
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Re: [airtwardo] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
TSO tests require the reserve to be packed with three full twists in the lines (3 x 360 degrees), right below the slider. The reserve must be functional and untwisted withing a few seconds. So, what is the problem here?


Yeah...ya got the whole rest of your life to get it open and flying, what's the problem?! Crazy


eric.fradet

Sep 30, 2008, 1:24 AM
Post #7 of 107 (4708 views)
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Re: [chris74] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

After the Vigil ,the Skyhook is your new target ?

Not against the Skyhook in particular, but against any MARD in fact, I do not see any need for it, no life has been saved by this device, so far = there is no documented accident (not speaking about rumours) showing someone who killed himself after cutting away so low with just a RSL (no skyhook), but we can expect some fatalities due to rigging errors, unintentional hook of the reserve bridle onto gear or camera equipment during cutaway, reserve deployment with partial or main total horse shoe malfunctions,etc... and the only fact that it is just insane to attach the reserve bridle to the reserve container). There is no need for any MARD in the skydiving sport, but there is for sure a brilliant marketting move who makes the skydivers believe they need it !


eric.fradet

Sep 30, 2008, 1:56 AM
Post #8 of 107 (4698 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah...ya got the whole rest of your life to get it open and flying, what's the problem?!

Then how do you steer clear of someone else under canopy ?, with a reserve lines twisted for instance


eric.fradet

Sep 30, 2008, 2:09 AM
Post #9 of 107 (4697 views)
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Re: [skydiverek] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

TSO tests require the reserve to be packed with three full twists in the lines (3 x 360 degrees), right below the slider. The reserve must be functional and untwisted withing a few seconds. So, what is the problem here?

1) If all the reserve canopies manufaturers were respecting the TSO, I will probably know it since it is my job.
2) the TSO also says equipment is certificated for any operating weight limit equal to 220 pounds, it does not mean that skydivers respect this rule.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Sep 30, 2008, 3:20 AM
Post #10 of 107 (4685 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
2) the TSO also says equipment is certificated for any operating weight limit equal to 220 pounds, it does not mean that skydivers respect this rule.
Than where is the magic number 254 coming from? And max. grow weight 254 lbs?


eric.fradet

Sep 30, 2008, 7:23 AM
Post #11 of 107 (4651 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

Than where is the magic number 254 coming from? And max. grow weight 254 lbs?

actually it is 264 lb not 254, test weight must not be less to certify an equipment limited to 220 pounds(maximum operating weight limit X 1,2) sounds logical (if it was respected which is an other story)


karlm

Sep 30, 2008, 12:50 PM
Post #12 of 107 (4570 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After the Vigil ,the Skyhook is your new target ?

Not against the Skyhook in particular, but against any MARD in fact, I do not see any need for it, no life has been saved by this device, so far = there is no documented accident (not speaking about rumours) showing someone who killed himself after cutting away so low with just a RSL (no skyhook), but we can expect some fatalities due to rigging errors, unintentional hook of the reserve bridle onto gear or camera equipment during cutaway, reserve deployment with partial or main total horse shoe malfunctions,etc... and the only fact that it is just insane to attach the reserve bridle to the reserve container). There is no need for any MARD in the skydiving sport, but there is for sure a brilliant marketting move who makes the skydivers believe they need it !

Eric

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you are saying that you are not in favor of a "MARD" system in sports skydiving? So be it the SkyHook or the DRX from Mirage.

If so I am calling you out on this, as it was not a few months ago when you e-mailed me asking for Aerodyne to consider your design instead of the UPT SkyHook or DRX systems currently available (not sure if the DRX is yet in production)

You also went on in the literature as to why your system was better than the current systems available etc etc

Do I sense a level of professional jealousy?


ficus  (D 29186)

Sep 30, 2008, 3:43 PM
Post #13 of 107 (4493 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Not against the Skyhook in particular, but against any MARD in fact, I do not see any need for it, no life has been saved by this device, so far

Obviously, one cannot say for sure, but from what we know, a recent fatality in Indiana would have likely been prevented if the jumper's rig were equipped with a MARD:

http://www.dropzone.com/...um.cgi?post=3287376;


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Sep 30, 2008, 4:50 PM
Post #14 of 107 (4457 views)
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Re: [ficus] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Not against the Skyhook in particular, but against any MARD in fact, I do not see any need for it, no life has been saved by this device, so far

Obviously, one cannot say for sure, but from what we know, a recent fatality in Indiana would have likely been prevented if the jumper's rig were equipped with a MARD:

http://www.dropzone.com/...um.cgi?post=3287376;

There's also some intersection between fatalities following cutaways with failure to deploy a reserve and the sort of skydiver who skips conventional RSLs to avoid severe line twists on a potentially overloaded reserve.

I won't jump a conventional RSL on fun canopies (it's so much more relaxing to chop, flip over, stop spinning, and then deploy) but would probably opt for a MARD + Stevens lanyard combination if I was buying a new rig and it was available on a rig with fun+safe main+reserve container size combination (that rules out RWS and Sunpath; Mirage has a few OK combinations).


ficus  (D 29186)

Sep 30, 2008, 5:06 PM
Post #15 of 107 (4445 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
would probably opt for a MARD + Stevens lanyard combination

Do you mean Collins lanyard? I'm pretty sure a Stevens lanyard is the conventional RSL.


CrazyL  (D 17699)

Sep 30, 2008, 11:00 PM
Post #16 of 107 (4337 views)
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Re: [eric.fradet] Pros & Cons of M.A.R.D (Was: Skyhook Activation Stories) [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm surely interested in Pro's and Con's of the M.A.R.D. but only know about 'here say' no real proof. So help me out here, here's a scenario that i 'heard' about, jumper cutaway spiraling main, reserve is static lined or M.A.R.D., jumper then rolls up in the reserve bridle enough to stop the reserve freebag from leaving the container, as jumper is rolled back out of the bridle the reserve canopy deploys and saves their life. Is this possible? Pro? Con?


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Oct 1, 2008, 12:43 AM
Post #17 of 107 (4309 views)
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Re: [CrazyL] Pros & Cons of M.A.R.D (Was: Skyhook Activation Stories) [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm surely interested in Pro's and Con's of the M.A.R.D. but only know about 'here say' no real proof. So help me out here, here's a scenario that i 'heard' about, jumper cutaway spiraling main, reserve is static lined or M.A.R.D., jumper then rolls up in the reserve bridle enough to stop the reserve freebag from leaving the container, as jumper is rolled back out of the bridle the reserve canopy deploys and saves their life. Is this possible? Pro? Con?

If you're in a spin, centripetal force is going to throw you away from the main. If the reserve bridle is attached via Skyhook or DRX, *how* is the jumper going to get "rolled up" in the reserve bridle? I don't see how there's any time for it to happen. The documented experience of test jumps/customer cutaways seems to point to line twists being the worst malfunction experienced to date. Your scenario seems more likely in the slower, "normal" reserve deployment.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 1, 2008, 1:40 AM
Post #18 of 107 (4300 views)
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Re: [karlm] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

What a hack is M.A.R.D.? Which manufacturer is providing it as an options? Where can I read the relevant marketing mabo-jumbo?


jurgencamps  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 2:25 AM
Post #19 of 107 (4295 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What a hack is M.A.R.D.? Which manufacturer is providing it as an options? Where can I read the relevant marketing mabo-jumbo?

Main assisted reserve deployment ?


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Oct 1, 2008, 2:51 AM
Post #20 of 107 (4287 views)
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Re: [jurgencamps] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
What a hack is M.A.R.D.? Which manufacturer is providing it as an options? Where can I read the relevant marketing mabo-jumbo?

Main assisted reserve deployment ?
Its a bit too general, don't you think?


mark  (D 6108)

Oct 1, 2008, 4:54 AM
Post #21 of 107 (4247 views)
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Re: [phoenixlpr] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
It's a bit too general, don't you think?

We need a name for Skyhook-like devices. The full definition from PIA TS-135 (the specifications for proposed TSO-C23e) is: "an automatically releasable connection between the main parachute and the reserve deployment system which uses a malfunctioned main canopy to speed reserve deployment upon breakaway."

Mark


Andy9o8  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 5:35 AM
Post #22 of 107 (4230 views)
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Re: [mark] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
It's a bit too general, don't you think?

We need a name for Skyhook-like devices. The full definition from PIA TS-135 (the specifications for proposed TSO-C23e) is: "an automatically releasable connection between the main parachute and the reserve deployment system which uses a malfunctioned main canopy to speed reserve deployment upon breakaway."

Mark


Oh, that. We just call that an ARCBMPRDSMCSRDUP for short.


skysurfcam  (F 446)

Oct 1, 2008, 7:24 AM
Post #23 of 107 (4187 views)
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Re: [karlm] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Eric

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but you are saying that you are not in favor of a "MARD" system in sports skydiving? So be it the SkyHook or the DRX from Mirage.

If so I am calling you out on this, as it was not a few months ago when you e-mailed me asking for Aerodyne to consider your design instead of the UPT SkyHook or DRX systems currently available (not sure if the DRX is yet in production)

You also went on in the literature as to why your system was better than the current systems available etc etc

Do I sense a level of professional jealousy?
Nothing but unabashed applause from here. Nice to see a manufacturer with the balls to call a schoolyard bully like Fradet out.

Expect to see him finding a reason why your rigs are banned in france without a costly, pointless refit...Unsure

C.


(This post was edited by skysurfcam on Oct 1, 2008, 7:28 AM)


jumpwally  (D License)

Oct 1, 2008, 7:39 AM
Post #24 of 107 (4175 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

Can you explain further your fun+correst size container combo's..? I have nop idea what you mean...


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Oct 1, 2008, 7:50 AM
Post #25 of 107 (4165 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Skyhook Activation Stories [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We just call that an ARCBMPRDSMCSRDUP for short.

Years ago in the Army airdrop world there was a simple extraction system for lighter platform loads called a "Static Line Connector Strap Extraction System" or "SL/CS" for short.

To the casual observer, it was a tangled mess of hardware, nylon, and cotton ties, although it served its purpose extremely well.

Favoring common names or nicknames over acronyms and abbreviations, the Rigger field dubbed it the "Gang Bang."


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