Forums: Skydiving: Instructors:
Instructors log book notes.....

 

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bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 19, 2008, 8:44 PM
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Instructors log book notes..... Can't Post

 
Normally I don't post a new thread, but today I have to say I saw the the most worthless input on a students log book that I have ever seen, by an Instructor. The skydive consisted of exit turns, and pull at the designated altitude with canopy control, accoding to this student. And all the Instructor had to write in this guys log book was, "Welcome to my World"

Fuckin' Amazing! Crazy


Any body else ever see something as worthless as this?


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 20, 2008, 12:01 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes.Unsure


VideoFly  (D 25621)

Sep 20, 2008, 1:15 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I am not an AFFI, but I am a coach responsible for making log book entrees. When I fill out a log book, I do so for several reasons. First, I like to encourage the student with several positive notes. Second, understanding that there is always room for improvement, I add suggestions as to how the skydiver might improve performance. Third, I write for the next coach so they know what to expect and what they might want to focus on during their jump. I think these are important pieces of information for all involved. It is not helpful to me or the person I am jumping with when I read a log book and all I see are brief positive and sometimes irrelevant notes.


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 21, 2008, 4:53 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

That kind of stuff has value to me. It helps me see what not to do and reminds me to continue to get better at it.

I'm not great at it, but I am getting better as time goes on.

The ones I really dislike are the notes saying stuff like:
-You screwed the pooch.
-That was very bad.
-You'll never get it until you do (X, Y, Z).

Yes, I've seen all those...verbatim.


gkc1436  (D 18232)

Sep 21, 2008, 6:29 PM
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

1st L7

flip flop spin
flip flop spin
do it again
good AA
good canopy

short and sweet by someone with 5000+ student jumps at that time...

g


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 21, 2008, 8:02 PM
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Re: [gkc1436] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
1st L7

flip flop spin
flip flop spin
do it again
good AA
good canopy
short and sweet by someone with 5000+ student jumps at that time...

g

Really? Crazy So he gets handed to another AFF-I. The student comes back 3 weeks later and doesn't remeber the jump well, or goes to another dz for training.
How was the climb out and solo exit? How was the practice touch? What was causing the spin? And what needs to be done to correct it for the repeat jump? If he was spinning without control, did he redock or do a solo pull in a flip flop spin? Was his landing stand up.

No need to write a book, but this is poor log book input, IMO.....


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

Sep 22, 2008, 5:15 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

His post has value.
It says 5000 jumps doesn't make it good.
I believe he was pointing out that fact...and as you indicated, rightfully so!

What I'm currently having trouble with is being concise and to the point. My tendency is to write a "book" and capturing too much detail.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Sep 22, 2008, 7:22 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

After the first couple of AFF jumps, I have the students write in their own log books after the debrief. I start out by dictating what they write (which is exactly the same thing I have in the DZs master record of the student), and after a couple of those, I have them do it themselves, I'll read over it and add/change anything that would be important for the next instructor to know.

I do this for two reasons... first, I have deplorable handwriting, so the best notes in the world are useless if they are illegable Smile The second reason is to give students more and more responsibility for their own jumps and recording of it, it gets them in good habits early (and for those that go on to be instructors, they already have a good handle of what to write for their students).


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Sep 22, 2008, 7:36 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

... first, I have deplorable handwriting,

...............................................................

Maybe you should become a doctor?

Tee
Hee


rmarshall234  (D 18793)

Sep 22, 2008, 7:36 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

That just tells me the poor quality of instruction and egocentric attitude is evident in log book entries as well. Doesn't surprise me. There are some really good intructors and some really bad instructors out there and you and I have worked with them both, Ed. It seems to me, making yourself directly available to the student population like you've done is the way to go. That way, you succeed or fail based on your own reputation. Which is in turn, based on your quality of work.

Robert


gkc1436  (D 18232)

Sep 22, 2008, 8:02 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

One would have to read the previous entries to understand the context of this entry, this was actually my second L7 (my bad)
she actually wanted to write (WTF was that about)
humor considering my previous jumps....

>So he gets handed to another AFF-I. The student comes back 3 weeks later and doesn't remeber the jump well, or goes to another dz for training.

wasn't going to happen, i had the same instructor from L3 thru L7's and she knew who i was and where i was going.

>How was the climb out and solo exit

that was covered on L5-L6, solo exit's on both and both good, hence no mention....

>How was the practice touch?

On a L7????

>What was causing the spin? And what needs to be done to correct it for the repeat jump?

Covered in de-briefing, student(me)knew what happened & why, beside's....already had an appointment for the following weekend with the same AFFI

>Was his landing stand up.

again, reading previous entries would help here...
stand up's lvl 2-6 standup's in pea's 4-6, no radio assistance after L4

>No need to write a book, but this is poor log book input,

Considering i have read 3 page entries from instructors that do nothing but belittle the student and his abilities< I offer this advice

Keep it simple, understandable, and end it on a positive note, the student will want to show it to his friends
dont let the skygod attitude intrude on something that should be a learning experience for both of you
AND read all the entries.....dont pass judgement on just one entry, history is everything

g


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 22, 2008, 8:24 AM
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Re: [gkc1436] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

  
In reply to:
wasn't going to happen, i had the same instructor from L3 thru L7's and she knew who i was and where i was going.

Why would an instructor assume that they will be the students only in instructor they jump with? Though I teach privately, and take my students through all the levels until I sign them off for solo, I still write in the log book as though another instructor were taking them on their next jump.

In reply to:
that was covered on L5-L6, solo exit's on both and both good, hence no mention....

So your saying after you do 2 good exits, a student will always do a great exit, so there is no need to write how the exit was?

In reply to:
>How was the practice touch?

On a L7????

Sure, why not?

In reply to:
>What was causing the spin? And what needs to be done to correct it for the repeat jump?

Covered in de-briefing, student(me)knew what happened & why, beside's....already had an appointment for the following weekend with the same AFFI

Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor?

In reply to:
>Was his landing stand up.

again, reading previous entries would help here...
stand up's lvl 2-6 standup's in pea's 4-6, no radio assistance after L4

I know, they always do perfect landing after they do a couple of good ones.......


In reply to:
Considering i have read 3 page entries from instructors that do nothing but belittle the student and his abilities< I offer this advice

There should be no belittling in any log book entry

In reply to:
Keep it simple, understandable, and end it on a positive note, the student will want to show it to his friends
dont let the skygod attitude intrude on something that should be a learning experience for both of you
AND read all the entries.....dont pass judgement on just one entry, history is everything

A Sky God entry is "Welcome to my world", short worthless notes that ONLY that AFF-I can understand is lazy and unproductive to the student.


danielcroft  (D 31103)

Sep 22, 2008, 8:57 AM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
>How was the practice touch?

On a L7????

Sure, why not?
+1

I did practice touches each time I got a new rig when I was a student (actually any time I get a new rig). It just happened more often as a student for me.


tombuch  (D 8514)

Sep 22, 2008, 10:24 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
After the first couple of AFF jumps, I have the students write in their own log books after the debrief. I start out by dictating what they write (which is exactly the same thing I have in the DZs master record of the student), and after a couple of those, I have them do it themselves, I'll read over it and add/change anything that would be important for the next instructor to know.
In reply to:

Terrific approach. That's the way I do it too, and it's the way my instructors handled my logbook way back in the '80's.

The jump really belongs to the student, and so do the stories. I like to let them take charge of logbook entries after a few jumps, as long as the reports are accurate and will assist the next instructor. That helps both of us to identify weaknesses and strengths, and to establish a forward plan that makes sense to the student. Plus, it's way better for the student to read his own story and own handwriting 1,000 jumps later.

My only real exception to this approach is when a jump involves a whole bunch of sign off matters that requires an instructor signature. Then I do the entry so the specifics are clear for all eternity. Otherwise, I like them to tell the story.


peregrinerose  (D 28983)

Sep 22, 2008, 10:40 AM
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Re: [tombuch] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks Smile But here I thought I made up this policy all by myself since I've never seen anyone else handle log books that way before. Burst my little ego bubble there, Tom. Tongue


matthewcline  (D 21585)

Sep 22, 2008, 10:56 AM
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Re: [peregrinerose] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Usually I am a bit of a novelist for the first few jumps (up to the Cat D). Once we move on passed the Cat "D", I have them write thier commnets first, I do explain to them that we will be doing this so as not to catch them off guard.

I also will go to the next instructor they are to jump with, or if I don't know who that is the S&TA and Chief Instructor, to pass on my impressions and what I saw as weekness' and streangth's. I figure that way no one is left guessing "What the Hell did Matt mean here?"

I do not have the neatest hand writing but do try to slow down and make it "deciferable"Blush.

Matt


azureriders  (D 28830)

Sep 22, 2008, 7:37 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1 & peregrinerose] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
bodypilot1: Any body else ever see something as worthless as this?
Had a student with ~20 jumps stop by, made a coach jump during which she blowed the hard deck so her coach recommended she jump with an AFF-I. Going through her log book before I was to make this next jump with her, I found her first seven jumps loged as: AFF-1, AFF-2......., AFF-7, with signatures but not a word more, no clear, no repeat, no nothing. After these she had jumped in a variety of places and it was obvious which jumps were logged at her local DZ and which ones were not. Upon questioning the coach (from the previous jump) and manifest girl, I learned that they did indeed verify the Instructor with the USPA and even called her to verify the log book. They said she acted as if it were no big deal.

In reply to:
peregrinerose: I thought I made up this policy all by myself
One of my Instructors did this, I do it with some students and yes, it does work very well.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 22, 2008, 8:06 PM
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Re: [azureriders] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
I found her first seven jumps loged as: AFF-1, AFF-2......., AFF-7, with signatures but not a word more, no clear, no repeat, no nothing. After these she had jumped in a variety of places and it was obvious which jumps were logged at her local DZ and which ones were not. Upon questioning the coach (from the previous jump) and manifest girl, I learned that they did indeed verify the Instructor with the USPA and even called her to verify the log book. They said she acted as if it were no big deal.

Worthless....Crazy


Foggy  (D 21109)

Sep 22, 2008, 8:23 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

I used to get GATW and the occasional VGATW despite having a serious spin problem during my student progression. Didnt mean a thing to me then and less so now.
I found the SkydiveU debrief process the best way to get the information out and then have the student put it on the page (another handwriting issue). I wanted them to learn how to analyze the skydive for good stuff and the "areas of improvement" for that jump and future skydives.

Foggy
No longer a rating holder


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Sep 22, 2008, 11:24 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

My logbook.
AFF1-Good exit, pulled on time
AFF2-nice exit
AFF3-good exit
AFF4-Exit solid, nice landing
AFF7-nice unstable exit. Welcome to the sky!

I skipped two jumps because I did turns on AFF3. Paper logbook mostly useless, IMO.
I did put my own notes in. I like writing in student's books when I'm part of their jumps. My e-logbook has for some interesting reading. If I ever burn in Ed...ask if you can read my E-log. you're in there too. Laugh


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 22, 2008, 11:30 PM
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Re: [DSE] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
If I ever burn in Ed...ask if you can read my E-log. you're in there too.

Shit, I want to read it before that, and bull shit over a bottle of wine, Buddy. Cool
Your instructors input was worthles though, you right. Unsure


gkc1436  (D 18232)

Sep 23, 2008, 1:19 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

>Sure, why not?
Pulling was never a problem, finding the handle was never a problem, the AFFI knew that, maybe because this was her 6th jump with me......

>Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor?

umm.......because i wasnt.......comfort factor mostly

>I know, they always do perfect landing after they do a couple of good ones.......

actually, students that prove themselves under canopy should be weened off radio as soon as possible. learning to trust/rely on yourself without outside input is one of the big unwritten TLO's in AFF. wouldnt you agree?
Beside's if you teach long enough, you will come across different degrees of "naturals" in different areas. sometimes canopy skills are there early, sometimes freefall skills come easy, you cant teach everyone at the same speed or with the same method

>short worthless notes that ONLY that AFF-I can understand is lazy and unproductive to the student.

so...good door, fix the feet......is bad?


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Sep 23, 2008, 8:51 PM
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Re: [gkc1436] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
actually, students that prove themselves under canopy should be weened off radio as soon as possible. learning to trust/rely on yourself without outside input is one of the big unwritten TLO's in AFF. wouldnt you agree?

Actually I never use radios for my private students. The 2 working tandems allows them canopy control and input if needed. What I meant was, how ever the student lands, good or bad, it should be noted in the log book, on every jump.

In reply to:
good door, fix the feet......is bad?

What is the correct fix for the feet? That is what should be noted.


(This post was edited by bodypilot1 on Sep 23, 2008, 8:52 PM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Sep 24, 2008, 3:44 PM
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Re: [bodypilot1] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually I never use radios for my private students.


I am overjoyed to hear that. I would run my own program the same way.


jerm  (D 23994)

Oct 4, 2008, 6:42 AM
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Re: [gkc1436] Instructors log book notes..... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
>Sure, why not?
Pulling was never a problem, finding the handle was never a problem, the AFFI knew that, maybe because this was her 6th jump with me......

hmm, any jump my hands aren't encumbered i do a practice touch.
I've never had a problem pulling either, but it's good to know things are where i left them now that there's a lot of wind.

In reply to:
>Again, why assume they are not going to jump with another instructor?

umm.......because i wasnt.......comfort factor mostly
plausible scenerios that could change this:

instructor is sick next time you go to jump
instructor gets fired
dz closes
you break your leg mid-week and are out till next season and the instructor no longer works there
your job relocates you
instructor quits the sport
or flees the country
or gets injured
or worse

depending on the dz, some of those are less likely, but they've all happened at one point or another. My girlfriend's AFF instructor went in on a tandem midway through her student training, so yes, shit DOES happen. It's very likely that the instructor is going to go do something stupid like cross the street or huck themselves out of an airplane before jumping with you again. Giving yo a good record of your jump is the responsible thing to do.


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