Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Shooting CReW

 


Renegate  (B 32774)

Sep 16, 2008, 11:59 AM
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Shooting CReW Can't Post

Hi all.

Im thinking of trying to shoot some CRW jumps with a panasonic HDC-SD9 camcorder. Now its focal at the widest setting is F1.8. Is that good enough for shooting CRW or should i look for a F1 or even smaller wide angle lens?

Thanks, as a matter of fact I would appreciate any advise on filming CRW jumps. Or links to other threads, just PLEASE dont tell me to JFGI


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Sep 16, 2008, 12:07 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Not trying to rain on your parade but, I'd have a hard time allowing a 90 jump skydiver (if your profile is accurate) to video my CRW jumps... unless you stayed well back from the formation out of the way, especially if we're doing rotations, or if the shit hits the fan and one or more of us gets flung off in your direction from an entanglement/wrap.

Now if you wanted to learn CRW and make a 2 stack or something, I'd do that with you, but leave the camera on the ground.


Renegate  (B 32774)

Sep 16, 2008, 12:53 PM
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Re: [BillyVance] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Bill,

rain all you like, it always shines in my mind.

The question was firstly theoretical, and secondly the only way, I know of, to learn something is to do it.

I appreciate your offer to teach me and I will gladly accept lessons anytime. Ill be at cross keys in 2 weeks.

By the way I have a feeling that you'd give the same answer to someone with 1000 jumps if they never jumped CRW, never filmed, and never had a cutaway (thought im not sure this last one plays any role at all)


rpersi  (D 22042)

Sep 16, 2008, 3:35 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Ill be at cross keys in 2 weeks.

The in house rigger at Cross Keys is pretty good at shooting CRW video. He's actually pretty good at a lot of stuff. Pick his brain if you're serious but get some more experience first.


(This post was edited by rpersi on Sep 16, 2008, 3:40 PM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 16, 2008, 11:34 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

You still have way to few jumps to be jumping a camera, period. Our national rules say the following about filming crw: 200 jumps total, b license, have done at least 10 real (ie, docked and be-docked) crw jumps, so you know a bit of what to expect.

Then you need a suitable canopy and wingload. Most people doing crw are at 1.3-1.4 which is too high for you right now, and rotations sink like a stone so you'd need higher still. You want to jump a crw canopy for preference otherwise you'll not be able to shoot good video because of too much forward speed and lift.

I started out my videoing filming crw, I still love doing it. it's good fun but it can be a challenge to do good (esp with lower jumpnumbers = bigger canopy = video that makes you seasick and/or having to jump a humungous amount of lead). If you want to film crw later, do at least 10-20 crw jumps now with a suitable canopy and have fun doing it you'll learn a lot, also stuff that'll help you in your skydiving career later on. Then work towards flying a suitable canopy, either a real crw canopy or 2nd best a 7cell like a hybrid triathlon, regular triathlon, freefall storm, spectre, but those are all 2nd best mainly because of their slow openings.

You may be allowed to follow crw jumpers out earlier than that,without the camera and on a bigger canopy. I did a lot of jumps like that it's fun. Be safe and be out of the way but you can practice a bit and probably you also get to practice landing out with the crw jumpers Crazy (heck I had to land out a lot at first).

Only jump a crw canopy at the wingload you need for whatever group you're filming when you're ready for that canopy and that wingload, but a setup like that will give you the best (ie, debriefable) video.

You'll also need to jump without RSL make sure you're ready for that too.

A cutaway is irrelevant Crazy

And yes jumpnumbers matter.


(This post was edited by dragon2 on Sep 16, 2008, 11:36 PM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Sep 16, 2008, 11:39 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh BTW check out the 3 CF World Championship daily videos I just posted on skydivemovies.com for clips where you see the camera flyers at work, you can get an idea about how you have to be able to fly your canopy (and what the burble does) to get good video.


StefB

Sep 17, 2008, 2:50 AM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hi all.

Im thinking of trying to shoot some CRW jumps with a panasonic HDC-SD9 camcorder. Now its focal at the widest setting is F1.8. Is that good enough for shooting CRW or should i look for a F1 or even smaller wide angle lens?

Thanks, as a matter of fact I would appreciate any advise on filming CRW jumps. Or links to other threads, just PLEASE dont tell me to JFGI

Do you know http://www.crwphoto.com/ from Bryan Scott? I learned a lot from his informations.

The F value is (almost) not important for us CF videoflyers. The F value defines how open the lens is and how much light is required (small F value, less light) to get a good image and how big is the DOF (Depth-of-field) is. In CF we have a lot of light to work with and we work mostly with infinity focus settings.

Much more information gives the focal lenght. The HDC-SD9 has a focal length of 3.0 - 30 mm. In wide angle mode 3.0 mm focal length of the HDC-SD9 with 1/6" CCD (560K x 3 pixels) is a 35mm Equivalent of about 42.9mm

For a beginner in CF video and for small CF formations wide angle is not the best. Something with 'normal' focal lenght like 50mm in 35mm photo format or even a touch of tele zoom is better IMHO. with wide angle you need to fly closer to the formation (against safety rule "unless you stayed well back from the formation out of the way") or you need really big formations...


(This post was edited by StefB on Sep 17, 2008, 3:00 AM)


Renegate  (B 32774)

Sep 17, 2008, 8:42 AM
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Re: [StefB] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

First of all thank you Stefan for an actual answer. I dont know why i brought up the f-stop values, probably was distracted and copied the wrong info from Panasonic web-site. But basically what i needed to know if i need a wide angle attachment. I dont , thanks again and for the website link. Actually my other question was do you set focusing on infinity manually or put the camera into an auto-focus mode?

Saskia, i saw your video and they are great.
I have jumped a few jumps with a CF Storm, some at 1.27 loading. Obviously I jumped without an RSL. I have done 2-way and 3-way, I have done some side-by-sides and downplane and I will do a lot more. So I appreciate your concern, but even though im new to CRW and new to skydiving, I am not a child, so give me that at least.

Responsibility of one with experience is to pass that experience on, not to tell inexperienced what they can't/shouldn't do.

Below linked are two clips of jumps i did make (sorry for russian music)
http://maxf.net/~renegat/My%20crw1.avi


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 17, 2008, 8:52 AM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I am not a child

Your attitude is disappointing, Serega.

If only you knew how many people before you made the same assumptions. Martial arts, motocross, fast reaction, in tune with their body... they were all grown ups and they all thought they were careful and more then capable at their experience level. Some of them made very big mistakes thinking that. Some lived to tell, others didn't.

But these things will go on and on, history is bound to repeat itself. People don't learn on words of caution of the more experienced, they learn on their own broken bones.

(This post was edited by frost on Sep 17, 2008, 8:54 AM)


Renegate  (B 32774)

Sep 17, 2008, 12:59 PM
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Re: [frost] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

This has nothing to do with my experience experience or attitude. There is a way one talks to a 5 year old, and there is a way to talk to a 50 year old, and the two are very different.

I gladly accept advice and lessons given to me. However I will not accept "we are elite we are better then you" or "im so much more experienced, you are a baby in comparison" attitudes.

In any case, Misha, this post was originally one asking for advice, and if you want to talk to me about my attitude, do so in an appropriate post or in person.

For crying out loud, I am not shouting about how great I am, nor am I asking to be let in on another world record attempt. I am asking for those who have the knowledge and experience to share some with me, but in a courteous way. I know I am inexperienced, but I also know that without trying i will stay inexperienced no matter how many jumps i have.


(This post was edited by Renegate on Sep 17, 2008, 1:05 PM)


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Sep 17, 2008, 1:08 PM
Post #11 of 21 (2103 views)
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Not meaning to denigrate you. Just simply pointing out your experience level and that it's at a point where you've got several things to do BEFORE you even think about doing what you asked in your original post, that's all.

There are lots of people on here that will criticize low timers and new posters who post about doing stuff that they don't have the experience for. You do need a thick skin on here. That's something you'll need the longer you're on this site... Wink

That said, nothing wrong with learning before doing... Smile


chuckbrown  (D 19538)

Sep 17, 2008, 1:15 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

You don't have to be a CRW jumper to film CRW jumps. You just need to know what to expect & the CRW guys/gals should give you a briefing on what they will be doing and where they expect you to fly (and not to fly). You need to be sensitive to the relative canopy flight characteristics so you can be in position at all times.

Go out. Have fun. What could possibly go wrong?Wink

P.S. I do competitive CRW and video competitive CRW. Smile


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 17, 2008, 1:22 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
However I will not accept "we are elite we are better then you" or "im so much more experienced, you are a baby in comparison" attitudes.
How on earth did you see ANY that in this whole thread????

In reply to:
this post was originally one asking for advice
You indicated your intentions of doing CReW video at 90 jumps. As is usually the case on these forums, people will bring up your profile if your questions suggest that you're trying to do something well above your level of experience. This is internet. Welcome!

In reply to:
and if you want to talk to me about my attitude
Not really. "You're not a child" ;)

However if you want to ask - go ahead. I did CReW video at the US nationals in 2007. The canopy i was flying was a competition set up VX96@2.5 wingloading, trying to film CReW dawgs on their Lightnings @1.6-1.8(?) There is a funny story to tell about that experience, even though i managed to do a half way decent job.

(This post was edited by frost on Sep 17, 2008, 1:31 PM)


Renegate  (B 32774)

Sep 17, 2008, 1:51 PM
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Re: [frost] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
You indicated your intentions of doing CReW video at 90 jumps.

How on earth did you see that in my original post? I asked if a wide angle lens was recommended for shooting CReW video, doesn't mean i was going to do it right away. You shouldn't jump to conclusions.

Chuck, I appreciate your support Smile

Billy, i got a skin of a rhinoceros and patience of a sloth, but this is internet after all (as Misha pointed out) and I like to argue.
I will never do something that will put others in danger if i know i cant deal with the situation. I will not jump a canopy i know i can't control, and I will not jump in a situation I am not comfortable with. (also i will never out-argue Misha Shatalov Wink)


frost  (D 25011)

Sep 17, 2008, 1:57 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
You indicated your intentions of doing CReW video at 90 jumps.

How on earth did you see that in my original post? I asked if a wide angle lens was recommended for shooting CReW video, doesn't mean i was going to do it right away. You shouldn't jump to conclusions.

you said:
Quote:
Im thinking of trying to shoot some CRW jumps with a panasonic HDC-SD9 camcorder.

That to me sounds like an indication of intentions to do CReW video.

Whatever dude, i dont really care - you're a grown man and can do what you want.

(This post was edited by frost on Sep 17, 2008, 1:59 PM)


maxf  (D 28907)

Sep 17, 2008, 2:41 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Renegate, these are your words:
In reply to:
I will never do something that will put others in danger if i know i cant deal with the situation. I will not jump a canopy i know i can't control, and I will not jump in a situation I am not comfortable with. (also i will never out-argue Misha Shatalov Wink)

Although I agree with the last 2 points. The first 2 are not true.

You are putting yourself and your friends in danger by being reckless. You have no business jumping such a high wing loading with your amount of experience. Your experience doesn't give sufficient knowledge to know or even make an educated guess if you will be able to control your canopy in a non-standard situation. Your assumptions, ambition, and attitude are very dangerous in this sport. The only reason people are spending their time by telling you all of this is to try to preserve life and wellbeing of your friends as well as your own. And just because you do not see the relevance of such things as cutaways to CRW or camera flying, doesn't mean there is none.
In either case your words and your actions do not match. One way or another sync it up. I hope you'll chose the conservative approach.


StefB

Sep 18, 2008, 1:20 AM
Post #17 of 21 (2005 views)
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Actually my other question was do you set focusing on infinity manually or put the camera into an auto-focus mode?

I use *infinity manually* with my video camera (Sony PC6) and my photo camera (Ricoh Caplio GX8).

For CF2 *competition* i got nice results with normal angle video (~43mm 35mm equivalent): grips and lines are visible enough for judging, but not the whole canopies.

In the same CF2 jumps/distance i used photo as well for *beautiful CF pictures*: with wide angle (~24-28mm 35mm equivalent) the complete CF2 formation is in the picture frame.

Even with the normal angle video lens the distance between me and CF2 performers in *competition* is close, maybe too close for a videoflyer without CF experience.

So when you decide to play on the safer side, stay with the normal angle lens first and try to stay in a safe, far enough distance from the formation.

BTW. You can estimate the distance on the ground in your viewfinder with a similar sized object (garage door...)


(This post was edited by StefB on Sep 18, 2008, 1:29 AM)


Renegate  (B 32774)

Sep 18, 2008, 1:26 PM
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Re: [StefB] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you very much,

I am not planing to get close to any CF formation I might get a chance to film, probably will start far and judging on result - adjust


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 4, 2008, 2:37 PM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

You've only got another 110 jumps to go (I would reccomend more). Then, repost and give it a try. You may not run into a brick wall then.

Gain as much experience as you can in those 110 jumps. Ask good questions, make smart decisions, listen to the many very experienced people you seem to distain. You will learn and you will gain experience of your own.

Some day... you may even understand! Keep in mind, 200 jumps is considered a "MINIMUM", not a milestone.

These are just personal rantings from a self acclaimed student of the sport. I live to learn.


CRW_Shepard  (D 10265)

Nov 14, 2008, 11:17 AM
Post #20 of 21 (1539 views)
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thank you very much,

I am not planing to get close to any CF formation I might get a chance to film, probably will start far and judging on result - adjust

Renegate,

Nothing beats practice. Be the human zoom and find the appropriate distance from the formation. Depending on the lens and the size of the completed formation this distance will change and only you're past experience with that camera/lens will tell you where to fly. Nothing but practice will help you dial that in. Now once you find this sweet spot the question is can you fly that spot for the whole dive? For me I start at a distance that comfortably includes the base and I slowly back up as the formation grows. Many factors get weighed into that; if you're heavily wing loaded you will out perform the formation if your too lightly loaded you won't be able to keep up. If your really interested I'm sure the CRW guys on your dropzone will give you the opportunity to work out the details. Personally I fly a 253sqft 7-cell canopy but I'm a big boy who can command big sink and float from that canopy to fly in the right spot.

Sorry I didn't see this thread sooner, good luck in your quest.

Blue Skies,
Bryan


skron  (D 30041)

Nov 17, 2008, 9:01 AM
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Re: [Renegate] Shooting CReW [In reply to] Can't Post

Keep in mind Renegate that you are posting in a CRW forum. You are asking advice from people who have seen many wraps, injuries and even deaths. They are not saying "we are better than you" "we have so much more experience that you"...but they are and they do. New jumpers (including myself until I got injured freeflying too soon) want to everything right now. I understand that feeling, but we have to keep remembering this is a dangerous possibly deadly sport and we need to listen to those with more experience than ourselves.

Yes in these forums sometimes you get critisism you didn't ask for, but mostly what youare getting is concern for the safety of yourself and others. I have only been around for 1 1/2 years and am already tired of reading sooo many incident reports. Imagine how tired you get after 5, 10, 20 years. Most of the experienced jumpers that are replying to your post are replying appropriatly. You really shouldn't even have a camera on your head yet, let alone filming something as complicated as CRW.

Take it slow, there is plenty of time to do everything as long as you do it the right way.


(This post was edited by skron on Nov 17, 2008, 9:05 AM)



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