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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008

 

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Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 15, 2008, 6:06 AM
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 Can't Post

Just wanted to let everyone know that I've made a full recovery.

I'm now jumping a samurai 136 (Loaded 1.7). So far, with it's much improved flare over an overloaded Sabre, it's setting me down much softer that my previous canopies.

I don't regret my choice :)


jshak81  (D License)

Sep 15, 2008, 8:13 AM
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope this is a joke.

After you posted about your incident to "warn other people of the dangers of downsizing too quickly", you've gone from the Sabre1 150 "square" canopy that you injured yourself under to an elliptical 136 loaded at 1.7. You have 250 jumps?

Is there an experienced canopy pilot at your dropzone, and what do they say about your "choice"? You may not regret it now, but I sincerely hope you don't later......


Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 15, 2008, 8:31 AM
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Re: [jshak81] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I hope this is a joke.

After you posted about your incident to "warn other people of the dangers of downsizing too quickly", you've gone from the Sabre1 150 "square" canopy that you injured yourself under to an elliptical 136 loaded at 1.7. You have 250 jumps?

Is there an experienced canopy pilot at your dropzone, and what do they say about your "choice"? You may not regret it now, but I sincerely hope you don't later......

I have spoken to 3 highly experienced canopy pilots at my DZ (1200 - 2600 jumps) and they all believe that I am capable of flying the canopy, and that it is a much better choice than the sabre. I will continue to get advice from these individuals regarding how to properly fly a high-performance, and even for the last 10 jumps or so, there advice has been quite useful.


punkd  (C License)

Sep 15, 2008, 9:00 AM
Post #4 of 86 (2978 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I hope this is a joke.

After you posted about your incident to "warn other people of the dangers of downsizing too quickly", you've gone from the Sabre1 150 "square" canopy that you injured yourself under to an elliptical 136 loaded at 1.7. You have 250 jumps?

Is there an experienced canopy pilot at your dropzone, and what do they say about your "choice"? You may not regret it now, but I sincerely hope you don't later......

I have spoken to 3 highly experienced canopy pilots at my DZ (1200 - 2600 jumps) and they all believe that I am capable of flying the canopy, and that it is a much better choice than the sabre. I will continue to get advice from these individuals regarding how to properly fly a high-performance, and even for the last 10 jumps or so, there advice has been quite useful.

Steve, not to stir the pot.. but what about Rob (one of the most experienced pilots at the dz) told you not to jump that canopy. and I quote ..

"I have never stepped in like this before but I will do it this time...Steve, you should not be jumping a Samuri 136! I am thinking something of 170 sq ft for now - doesn't matter what you have jumped up to now."


Don't hurt yourself man.


Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 15, 2008, 9:53 AM
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Re: [punkd] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I hope this is a joke.

After you posted about your incident to "warn other people of the dangers of downsizing too quickly", you've gone from the Sabre1 150 "square" canopy that you injured yourself under to an elliptical 136 loaded at 1.7. You have 250 jumps?

Is there an experienced canopy pilot at your dropzone, and what do they say about your "choice"? You may not regret it now, but I sincerely hope you don't later......

I have spoken to 3 highly experienced canopy pilots at my DZ (1200 - 2600 jumps) and they all believe that I am capable of flying the canopy, and that it is a much better choice than the sabre. I will continue to get advice from these individuals regarding how to properly fly a high-performance, and even for the last 10 jumps or so, there advice has been quite useful.

Steve, not to stir the pot.. but what about Rob (one of the most experienced pilots at the dz) told you not to jump that canopy. and I quote ..

"I have never stepped in like this before but I will do it this time...Steve, you should not be jumping a Samuri 136! I am thinking something of 170 sq ft for now - doesn't matter what you have jumped up to now."


Don't hurt yourself man.

I don't intend to hurt myself - but...accidents do happen...


cirrusnylstroom  (B 2672)

Sep 15, 2008, 10:49 AM
Post #6 of 86 (2890 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey all, I agree with Zeppo. As per the thread
- You've had a bad incident
- You said (On page 1 of this thread) that you will probably jump a 170 until you were current/confident.

I have only 214 jumps, presently on a 170 main at a 1.17 wing loading.
At 30 jumps on a 170, I have no plan to downscale until I feel confident (Possibly at least another 50 jumps). But I believe in Brian Germains approach to canopy piloting guidelines that ya gotta master the master before you take on a bigger responsibility. But to downscale, after an accident like you have had, well, most of the accidents/deaths reported on DZ.com are all canopy related. Think about it, please be reasonable.

I dont want read about you in this forum in the next year with worse consequences than what has happened at present.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)

Sep 15, 2008, 11:09 AM
Post #7 of 86 (2877 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Steve, not to stir the pot.. but what about Rob (one of the most experienced pilots at the dz) told you not to jump that canopy. and I quote ..

"I have never stepped in like this before but I will do it this time...Steve, you should not be jumping a Samuri 136! I am thinking something of 170 sq ft for now - doesn't matter what you have jumped up to now."


Don't hurt yourself man.

I don't intend to hurt myself - but...accidents do happen...
So hold up here...An experienced skydiver told you to not jump that canopy? You still are jumping it, and being flip about it to people whom have observed your skills firsthand?


DutchSkyCam  (D 22224)

Sep 15, 2008, 11:28 AM
Post #8 of 86 (2860 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

After your latest remarks i read the original post again.

In reply to:
I was working on my accuracy, so I did a very simple approach, and at about 500' I was on final.

As I was coming in, everything seemed to be going nicely. I was sliding on both my feet right near the end of my flare. My left foot turned slightly outward, and caught on the ground, turning it underneath. This resulted in a slight tumble, but otherwise, a standup landing.

Witnesses attest to it being a soft landing, and the damage surprising.

I ended up breaking my left ankle and tore the cartilage on the opposite side (not sure of the medical terms). They had to operate to re-set the joint, and placed 7 screws and a plate to hold things in place. Expected 6 week recovery and about 3 months before I can jump again.

Primarily, since everything else in the skydive went well, the only things that I can blame for this injury is the high wing loading, and deciding to jump with low winds, knowing that I'd be coming in fast.

Had I just PLF'd, it would've looked ugly, but I wouldn't have hurt myself. I think that's the only thing I could've done differently to prevent this injury.

If it helps...I landed a couple steps from the peas...which I was pretty happy with Smile

You came from a Sabre 150 @ 1.67WL and went to a Samurai 137 @ 1.70WL (My conclusion: either you lost 20 lbs during your layoff/recovery or you are now jumping at a WL of 1.82).

Even after your accident you mention you were happy about landing so close to the peas (My conclusion: You have always had problems with accuracy).

You couldn't handle a straight-in landing (500' final) on a no-wind day and you yourself concluded the wingloading and the lack off wind were the cause of the accident.

I don't know anyone jumping a samurai, so: http://www.bigairsportz.com/samurai.php
So after an accident on your previous canopy (also high wingload, but at least square) you think you can do better on an eliptical at an ever higher wingload?
Maybe it has a better flare, but it will almost certainly have a higher forward speed on landing (see your own conclusion above)

You need to ask yourself a few questions:
-Can you understand that some people in this forum are concerned about your health?
-Do you understand the flying characteristics of (ellipical-)canopies @ higher wingloads?
-Can you land your current canopy straigh-in on a nill-wind day?
-Can you land your current canopy in a tight spot?
-And next to understanding it: "When the shit hits the fan, Can you DO it?"


Normally I am not so much of a poster on this forum, but your story has the word ACCIDENT written all over it.


Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 15, 2008, 11:41 AM
Post #9 of 86 (2841 views)
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Re: [cirrusnylstroom] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Hey all, I agree with Zeppo. As per the thread
- You've had a bad incident
- You said (On page 1 of this thread) that you will probably jump a 170 until you were current/confident.

I have only 214 jumps, presently on a 170 main at a 1.17 wing loading.
At 30 jumps on a 170, I have no plan to downscale until I feel confident (Possibly at least another 50 jumps). But I believe in Brian Germains approach to canopy piloting guidelines that ya gotta master the master before you take on a bigger responsibility. But to downscale, after an accident like you have had, well, most of the accidents/deaths reported on DZ.com are all canopy related. Think about it, please be reasonable.

I dont want read about you in this forum in the next year with worse consequences than what has happened at present.

I actually did a return to currency through a bunch of jumps on larger canopies. 260s, 190s 170s before I started with the 136.


RogerRamjet  (D License)

Sep 15, 2008, 11:50 AM
Post #10 of 86 (2833 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hey all, I agree with Zeppo. As per the thread
- You've had a bad incident
- You said (On page 1 of this thread) that you will probably jump a 170 until you were current/confident.

I have only 214 jumps, presently on a 170 main at a 1.17 wing loading.
At 30 jumps on a 170, I have no plan to downscale until I feel confident (Possibly at least another 50 jumps). But I believe in Brian Germains approach to canopy piloting guidelines that ya gotta master the master before you take on a bigger responsibility. But to downscale, after an accident like you have had, well, most of the accidents/deaths reported on DZ.com are all canopy related. Think about it, please be reasonable.

I dont want read about you in this forum in the next year with worse consequences than what has happened at present.

I actually did a return to currency through a bunch of jumps on larger canopies. 260s, 190s 170s before I started with the 136.

237 to 252 since the accident and you have "bunches" of jumps on 260s, 190s, 170s before the 136 (eliptical).... whatever...

People with a lot more experience and insight than you have are trying to get through to you dude. The problem here is that you don't know what you don't know. I believe you're heading down the path to a much more severe accident.


Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 15, 2008, 12:40 PM
Post #11 of 86 (2786 views)
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Re: [DutchSkyCam] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You came from a Sabre 150 @ 1.67WL and went to a Samurai 137 @ 1.70WL (My conclusion: either you lost 20 lbs during your layoff/recovery or you are now jumping at a WL of 1.82).

Even after your accident you mention you were happy about landing so close to the peas (My conclusion: You have always had problems with accuracy).

You couldn't handle a straight-in landing (500' final) on a no-wind day and you yourself concluded the wingloading and the lack off wind were the cause of the accident.
In reply to:

I actually did lose a fair bit of weight during my recovery. I stood on the scale at the dz fully geared up and heading to the plane, and I came in at 230. I was a little surprised, so others verified the accuracy of the scale for me, by checking themselves.

Accuracy has never really been a proble. I usually land within 10 m of the peas as it is, when I'm actually going for the bowl that is. Usually with the traffic, I just pick an open spot on the DZ and target there. On that particular jump, there was no traffic, so I was working on my accuracy, in the same way swoopers work on their swooping.

All the jumps on my samurai so far have been no wind days - its actually been really strange, that there's been no winds for several weeks in a row.

I understand the theoretical aspects of flying a highly loaded HP canopy, as for how it actually behaves...well, that just comes with more experience and practice, high up.

As for landing in a tight spot...well, I guess that depends on how you define tight. When flying a wing with a high glide ratio, and a long surf, the tightness of that spot can be no smaller than the length of your surf, so it's kind of subjective. As for specific techniques that could be used to land in a tighter area, I really don't know. That's something I'd have to ask my coach.


(This post was edited by Zeppo on Sep 15, 2008, 1:30 PM)


Chris-Ottawa  (A License)

Sep 15, 2008, 1:31 PM
Post #12 of 86 (2730 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Steve,

I hope you're enjoying the attention...Come on Steve...you're smarter than this.

I'm wasting my time if I say anything more.

Chris


skyjumpsteve  (D 14734)

Sep 15, 2008, 1:47 PM
Post #13 of 86 (2705 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I understand the theoretical aspects of flying a highly loaded HP canopy, as for how it actually behaves...well, that just comes with more experience and practice, high up.

As for landing in a tight spot...well, I guess that depends on how you define tight. When flying a wing with a high glide ratio, and a long surf, the tightness of that spot can be no smaller than the length of your surf, so it's kind of subjective. As for specific techniques that could be used to land in a tighter area, I really don't know. That's something I'd have to ask my coach.

Wow.....just wow. Pirate


mik  (D 11111)

Sep 15, 2008, 2:31 PM
Post #14 of 86 (2661 views)
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Re: [Chris-Ottawa] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Steve,

Come on Steve...you're smarter than this.


Chris

I really hope you are right, but it certainly is not clear from his posts on this forum - I wonder how many low jump numbers are reading this and willl be influenced by his decisions in the future ... Unsure

I would welcome more comments from very experienced canopy pilots on the subject of downsizing very quickly following injuries


humanflite  (D 99999)

Sep 15, 2008, 2:57 PM
Post #15 of 86 (2639 views)
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Re: [op] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

To the OP, are your ankles fully healed?
Im struggling to see how they can be 100% (certainly the one that was plated) because I 'only' sprained my ankle quite badly in a bad landing during when I did AFF and it was 6 months until it was anything like 95%..and I did a whole bunch of physio and strength building every day.

If your not 100% fit, your literally asking to re injure yourself.
Quite apart from the fact that your canopy downsizing progression is way to fast IMHO. Im very surprised the DZO doesnt mind you jumping a 136 elliptical so soon after your injury on the 150...


(This post was edited by humanflite on Sep 15, 2008, 3:11 PM)


Bolas  (D License)

Sep 15, 2008, 3:56 PM
Post #16 of 86 (2608 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you realize and accept the severe consequences (death, serious injury, permanent disability, etc.) of the increased level of risk you are taking being so far out of the suggested wingloading and canopy type for your jump numbers?

Are the people in your life aware of the danger of your choice?

Don't even begin to kid yourself by thinking you can be "safe" or taking a few classes and getting coaching will protect you. It does increase your odds, but they are still highly stacked against you. Frown


Piece  (A 53144)

Sep 15, 2008, 8:49 PM
Post #17 of 86 (2458 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Look up a thread in the blue skies forum about someone called Ted Nelson. Downsizing caused his fatality.

When reading an incident report, downsizing is never listed as the direct cause of death. The jumper dies from a mistake they make. The point of downsizing slowly is that these mistakes will not cost you your life. Thus, almost any landing fatality for a jumper with less than, say, 600 jumps can likely be at least partially attributed to aggressive downsizing as a root cause. According to the fatalities database, in 2008 so far there were 5 fatalities among such jumpers out of a total of 14 landing accidents, a rate of more than 1 out of 3. 4 of these fatalities were on canopies considered aggressive for the experience level, arguably the 5th one too. You would be on the more aggressive side of these fatalities, most of them had more jumps than you and flew a canopy similar to yours. In fact, all people killed this year due to low turns had more jumps than you do, many of them probably had more jumps on their current canopy than you have in total.

Remember that even the most severe injuries are not listed on the fatalities database so this is likely to be an underestimate of how dangerous such flying really is.

I downsized aggressively. I now have a permanently damaged right knee that is likely to develop into possibly severe arthritis as I age. This may prevent me from participating in any more adventures once I grow up without some serious surgery/medication. If I had to do it again, I would definitely not move to a Stiletto 150 at 150 jumps. I "upsized" planforms when getting back into the sport, at great expense.


james309  (C 36675)

Sep 15, 2008, 9:20 PM
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Re: [Piece] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

I have to agree with what everyone has stated in this thread. I am a pilot with over 500 hours. I have landed airplanes at over 100 mph. This has definitely made flying a canopy much easier. Even with my experience and 250 jumps I still fly a canopy at 1.4. I only have 2 landings that I did not stand up. This is not because I can't fly a higher wingloading; in fact I have flown up to a 1.6 wingloading. What you need to realize is that you can land almost any canopy in perfect conditions. However, if for some reason you take a bad spot in the worst conditions can you consistently land your canopy without hurting yourself? If the answer is no you have not mastered anything, and you should reconsider your downsizing options. If you can't land into a tight spot downwind because you have to reconsider your downsizing choices!

Edit- I have also take 3 caniopy classes. These helped, but they did not make me an experienced canopy pilot!


(This post was edited by james309 on Sep 15, 2008, 9:38 PM)


murps2000  (D 23114)

Sep 15, 2008, 9:22 PM
Post #19 of 86 (2474 views)
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Re: [Piece] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Look up a thread in the blue skies forum about someone called Ted Nelson. Downsizing caused his fatality.
Quote:

Ted wouldn't listen and niether will zeppo. Do they ever? I tried to tell Ted myself. Even tried to relax my tone after a while and keep it humorous. Some people watching on the sidelines get the message, so I guess it's worth arguing the point, but reading that shit about the tightness of your spot being determined by the length of your surf just makes you want to shake your head. As if the length of your surf were such a fixed value.


pchapman  (D 1014)

Sep 15, 2008, 9:38 PM
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Some posts by others got cut by the moderators, but they were fun while they lasted. (They got more into the philosophy of risk taking, personal responsibility, and the desire to protect others.)

Anyway, Zeppo, since you're out on the spot here anyway, what can you say about the type of approaches you do, how you plan to do them in the future, and whether you think you are disciplined in the way you do them?

Whatever the arguments about wing loading may be, beyond that, the style of landing approach is another issue affecting the risk involved.


Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 16, 2008, 4:54 AM
Post #21 of 86 (2414 views)
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Re: [pchapman] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Some posts by others got cut by the moderators, but they were fun while they lasted. (They got more into the philosophy of risk taking, personal responsibility, and the desire to protect others.)

Anyway, Zeppo, since you're out on the spot here anyway, what can you say about the type of approaches you do, how you plan to do them in the future, and whether you think you are disciplined in the way you do them?

Whatever the arguments about wing loading may be, beyond that, the style of landing approach is another issue affecting the risk involved.

For the forseeable future, my approaches will be simple right handed J pattern. I don't plan on doing any high speed approaches until I have an intuitive understanding of how muh altitude is lost based on the various factors involved...which will take quite some time.

I was swooping my last canopy, but the samurai comes in fast enough, and I have no desire to add additional speed on final at this stage.


tuffyjensen  (D 25830)

Sep 16, 2008, 8:26 AM
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

As a DZO I would not allow you to be so naive and ignorant to the advice of others (I hope including your DZO or club president), your DZO or any other place you try to jump should take the same stance and not allow you to jump that canopy. This is not meant to be an attack on you personally, but you just don't get what the dangers are and what your impending incident/death will do to you, your family and friends, your DZ and the sport in general.

I am sure that some will flame me for controlling what someone jumps, please flame away. As a DZO/Club you have to take some responsibility in making sure that your jumpers are making reasonable choices and being safe. You jumping this canopy is almost a certain incident waiting to happen and it might not be just you, yes you could kill someone else because of it. Courses are great, but CANNOT be substituted for experience, PERIOD!

You will have time to learn how to fly this type of canopy if you take the time and if you don't take the time you will never get the chance to learn and someone else will learn from your mistake.

If they can kill people with thousands of jumps just because of a minor mistake/misjudgment, then they can definitely kill someone with a couple hundred jumps that is bound to make a major mistake, we all have.

Even if you would continue and never get hurt, it does not mean you should have done it. Example: Would it have been right to drive home with a blood alcohol of .3 all over the road just because you made it there without killing yourself or anyone else. I hope you know the answer to that without thinking.

Please listen to your elders and respect their knowledge before we are doing a condolence page.


freakflydiver  (C 3225)

Sep 16, 2008, 8:32 AM
Post #23 of 86 (2311 views)
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Re: [Zeppo] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

Steve my good friend, I think by posting this and by simply reading this thread you have acquired the balls and knowledge to borrow my Xaos 83 which I bought because it was cheaper to buy it than having to spend the money relining my Crossfire2 99, ha ha ha. I can't really judge you or try to change your mind 'cuz I know you're as stubborn as a blind mule, but I do hope that you keep that day job so in then event that you have another injury at least you can work from home.Wink


Chris_K  (C 3228)

Sep 16, 2008, 9:42 AM
Post #24 of 86 (2245 views)
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Re: [tuffyjensen] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
As a DZO I would not allow you to be so naive and ignorant to the advice of others (I hope including your DZO or club president), your DZO or any other place you try to jump should take the same stance and not allow you to jump that canopy. This is not meant to be an attack on you personally, but you just don't get what the dangers are and what your impending incident/death will do to you, your family and friends, your DZ and the sport in general.

unfortunately in this case it is a legal issue that the DZO can't ground him (I have not consulted the DZO but I know the law) as there were a few others who seriously injured themselves flying in a similar fashion the DZO would open himself up to civil suits from the previously injured jumpers as denying steve the right to jump is an acknowledgement of responsibility for DZO that all there actions are and were incredibly un-safe. All the DZ can do is ensure that they are legally covered by a good waiver for when he does bounce.

(Our legal system sucks as you can't stop someone from trying to commit suicide, even if they do something stupid just because others tell them not to and they are rebelling or to fit in with the swoopers)

For Steve, Talk to me off line as I know an insurance carrier that covers skydiving, if you are going to bounce, at least be covered and make life easier on those who you leave behind.


(This post was edited by Chris_K on Sep 16, 2008, 9:56 AM)


Zeppo  (D 1038)

Sep 16, 2008, 9:50 AM
Post #25 of 86 (2235 views)
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Re: [freakflydiver] Injury - Ontario, June 1, 2008 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Steve my good friend, I think by posting this and by simply reading this thread you have acquired the balls and knowledge to borrow my Xaos 83 which I bought because it was cheaper to buy it than having to spend the money relining my Crossfire2 99, ha ha ha. I can't really judge you or try to change your mind 'cuz I know you're as stubborn as a blind mule, but I do hope that you keep that day job so in then event that you have another injury at least you can work from home.Wink

You know I have no intention of trying your Xaos...ever. That 83 would scare me shitless, and that's if it worked perfectly...never mind if shit goes wrong.


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