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Exit Order, Who goes First?

 

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Poll: Exit Order, Who goes First?
Flat 133 / 76%
Headdown/Sit 42 / 24%
175 total votes
 
Ron

Dec 31, 2002, 9:54 AM
Post #1 of 78 (3121 views)
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Exit Order, Who goes First? Can't Post

At your DZ, who goes first?

Why?

Ron


jlmiracle  (D License)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:55 AM
Post #2 of 78 (3058 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

It all depends on the size of the groups.

Judy


rgoper  (C 32349)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:59 AM
Post #3 of 78 (3048 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

RW, largest to smallest-belly fliers largest to smallest-free fliers, largest to smallest-aff students-tandems-crew dogz (assuming the otter is full of all these fliers) i have seen a casa loaded with all of the afore mentioned.


Ron

Dec 31, 2002, 10:00 AM
Post #4 of 78 (3046 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no idea why, but Headdown goes first at Zhills.

Not taking into account pull altitudes:

I think it should be flat groups largest to smallest.

Then headdown/sitfly groups largest to smallest.

Students and high pullers out last.

I think this way due to freefall drift issues.

Flat groups drift more than headdown groups, this has the potential to cause a flat group to drift over a Headdown group.

Also most headdown groups break off higher, and pull higher than most flat groups.

A back sliding flat person will not travel as far as a bad headdown flyer.

Thoughts?
Ron


Ron

Dec 31, 2002, 10:03 AM
Post #5 of 78 (3040 views)
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Re: [jlmiracle] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

why does it matter the size of the group?

It is a fallrate/drift issue.

And I thought Mike put the freaks out last.

Ron

PS. Tell Chris I said Hi. I have not seen you since I moved to FL...I don't think you were jumping yet.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Dec 31, 2002, 10:08 AM
Post #6 of 78 (3035 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ron --

This entire issue has been hashed over so many times it's almost a joke now. Why Zhills does what it does is beyond me, but certainly they must have their reasons.

Your plan follows the general plan as laid out by numerous others and has a sound basis in freefall physics.

Please take a gander at Professor Kallend's page HERE and then when you completely understand the physics behind it -- please -- show it to the management at Zhills.


jlmiracle  (D License)

Dec 31, 2002, 10:15 AM
Post #7 of 78 (3029 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

We generally put out big rw first. then smaller rw, but if there is a bigger ff group, they go first.

I have been too a few boogies where the group size is the only thing that mattered - did not matter what discipline.

Judy

I think you moved about the time I started at WTS but I've heard all the stories about you.


(This post was edited by jlmiracle on Dec 31, 2002, 10:26 AM)


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Dec 31, 2002, 12:29 PM
Post #8 of 78 (2951 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

At the DZs that I jump the exit order is always: RW groups, largest first, then smallest, Freeflyers, large to small, then tandems, the AFF. Although this seems to be the standard, I'd like to hear disscussion about why this exit order is established. I don't wish to change it, just understand the science behind it.


Gawain  (D 29213)

Dec 31, 2002, 12:50 PM
Post #9 of 78 (2942 views)
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Re: [quade] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

That is a neat model! I created 7 ft separation by the time the last jumper pulls...(if I did it right...probably not...Tongue


winsor  (D 13715)

Dec 31, 2002, 12:54 PM
Post #10 of 78 (2940 views)
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Re: [Tink1717] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At the DZs that I jump the exit order is always: RW groups, largest first, then smallest, Freeflyers, large to small, then tandems, the AFF. Although this seems to be the standard, I'd like to hear discussion about why this exit order is established. I don't wish to change it, just understand the science behind it.

John Kallend's website has quite good treatment of the subject, to include an online simulation. A Google search, or Skydive Archive should provide links to it (Bill, do you have its address handy?.

Some of what he has came from a seminar I gave at the Convention in which he participated, and the subject is addressed rather exhaustively.

The basic principle is that of throw on exit, as well as the fact that "vertical separation" becomes irrelevant in the event of an inadvertent deployment.

In general, the faster your terminal speed the farther downrange you will be thrown by the forward motion of the aircraft. If you put a pair of head downers out, wait some 4 seconds and launch a RW pair, when the freefliers open the bellyfliers will be directly above them.

Put another way, if you have a belly flier group launch on one side of the airplane at the same time a freeflier group launches from the other side of the airplane (it's a Fokker 27 or C-130 or something), the freefliers will open something like 500 feet down the line of flight from where the bellyfliers open, and will be at opening altitutde quite a bit sooner.

The optimal exit order, as described by Bryan Burke when at Skydive Arizona was slow fallers first, in large to small groups, fast fallers next, in large to small groups, AFF, Tandems.


Blue skies,

Winsor


Tink1717  (D 12524)

Dec 31, 2002, 1:08 PM
Post #11 of 78 (2936 views)
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Re: [winsor] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
In general, the faster your terminal speed the farther downrange you will be thrown by the forward motion of the aircraft. If you put a pair of head downers out, wait some 4 seconds and launch a RW pair, when the freefliers open the bellyfliers will be directly above them.
Makes sense, but doesn't the timing of the exit affect the separation at pull altitude, effectively negating forward throw?


winsor  (D 13715)

Dec 31, 2002, 1:20 PM
Post #12 of 78 (2924 views)
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Re: [Tink1717] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
In general, the faster your terminal speed the farther downrange you will be thrown by the forward motion of the aircraft. If you put a pair of head downers out, wait some 4 seconds and launch a RW pair, when the freefliers open the bellyfliers will be directly above them.
Makes sense, but doesn't the timing of the exit affect the separation at pull altitude, effectively negating forward throw?

Sure, but you have built-in separation with bellyfliers first, and you have to overcompensate for the overlap with freefliers first.

The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. That is, however, the way to bet.


Blue skies,

Winsor

(See Quade's post for Doctor Kallend's web page URL)


Dumpster  (D 27314)

Dec 31, 2002, 4:58 PM
Post #13 of 78 (2879 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know why, but the first answer that popped into my head was "Who ever is closest to the door, because they got in last-"
For some reason my humor has been like that lately. Must be that time of year--


skr  (D 981)

Dec 31, 2002, 5:33 PM
Post #14 of 78 (2866 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

> I have no idea why, but Headdown goes first at Zhills.

Brian Germain and (xx - spacing his name at the moment,
but he was a really good freeflyer who got hurt a few years
back) both told me that they sat back by the door because
it was cooler there in the summer.

When the uppers picked up to some magic number they
would switch the exit order and put the slow fallers out first.


John Kallend wrote a modeling program to help people
think about this which is here http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/

Winsor wrote an explanation which I last saw here
http://www.koyn.com/clouddancer/


I put my best effort to explain it here
http://indra.net/...r_coach_weekend.html

http://indra.net/...niels/ftw/index.html
also has Bryan Burke's three orginal articles plus
a couple from Bill Von from when we were talking
about it on rec.skydiving around 1995.


The one I wrote, Separation Explained for Students,
is about 1/3 the physics of why and about 2/3 learning
how to do it (get separation at opening, which is the
motive for all this).


OPEC changed the oil prices in 1973. Shortly after that
we started putting out multiple groups per pass.

<soapbox>
That's almost 30 years and we're STILL not teaching
people why and how to do it.

Sorry, but that's been bugging me for a very long time.
</soapbox>

Skr


(This post was edited by sangiro on Jan 7, 2003, 1:38 PM)


seedy  (Student)

Dec 31, 2002, 7:21 PM
Post #15 of 78 (2840 views)
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Re: [skr] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/
http://www.koyn.com/clouddancer/
http://indra.net/...r_coach_weekend.html
http://indra.net/...niels/ftw/index.html


Ron

Jan 1, 2003, 10:03 AM
Post #16 of 78 (2759 views)
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Re: [quade] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

I know about Johns website...and I agree with it.

I don't think Freeflyers should go first.

I think flat should....And I have several reasons....

I am posting this to try and see if one fucking person can give me a good reason to put Freeflyers first..

It won't change a thing here I ask, and I get all kinds of stupid answers..... Including (We all have small canopies)?????

It is a matter of they WANT to and they do....unless its windy or cold....

But just wanted to know.

Ron


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jan 1, 2003, 10:54 AM
Post #17 of 78 (2735 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It is a matter of they WANT to and they do....unless its windy or cold....

So who's in charge of safety there; the DZO and S&TA or a couple of freeflyers?


Ron

Jan 1, 2003, 12:29 PM
Post #18 of 78 (2702 views)
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Re: [quade] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

The S&TA is Pip Redvers...he is a freeflyer.

He likes getting out first.

The real big pain in the ass is the freeflyers like to get out over the top even on no wind days....They say they don't want to get out downwind and have to fly a canopy to the DZ with people opening around them.

So what that does is make me almost always take a go around.....I don't mind, but it is bad to have to have 2 passes when it would not be needed if they just got the fuck out the door.

Plus the spot gets screwed when you have a lot of small headdown groups eat up a lot of the jumprun, then a large RW group starts to climb out, and the climb out time is in the middle of the exit window....the climb out, and the count is unusable exit time that is wasted....

As an organizer, if I know my climb out is going to take along time, I start the climb out sooner, so we leave at the begining of the exit, not start at the window....this help eliminate extra passes....

But a Zhills, we climb out when we can, and if it looks like we will not have a good spot, I go around....wasted loads and fuel.

Oh well, maybe USPA should put an exit order BSR....hell it is there job to do things like this.

Ron


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Jan 1, 2003, 12:50 PM
Post #19 of 78 (2692 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

Then what about approaching the DZO? Doesn't he care about his bottom line?


Ron

Jan 2, 2003, 5:09 AM
Post #20 of 78 (2618 views)
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Re: [quade] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

He tells you to change it if you don't like it....
He tries not to get involved if he does not have to.

Plus he has the S&TA telling him it is better.

I still think the USPA should make a BSR on exit order.

It is a safety issue.

Now to be honest, it is more a efficency issue since we have to take a go around more than needed. I will not exit with a bad spot just to save the DZ money.

Oh well, it is the way it is, and it will not change in the current climate....and so far we have only had bad spots, and no accidents.

Ron


scottbre  (A License)

Jan 2, 2003, 5:26 AM
Post #21 of 78 (2603 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

At my DZ exit order is basically whoever wants to get out first. There may be an official, belly flyers out first rule, but it doesn't matter much and is often not adhered to. Of course it matters very little when you're jumping out of a 182 and there is not usually more than 2 groups, if that.


DaMan  (D 26248)

Jan 2, 2003, 5:46 AM
Post #22 of 78 (2594 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
...I don't think Freeflyers should go first.

I think flat should....And I have several reasons....

I am posting this to try and see if one fucking person can give me a good reason to put Freeflyers first..

I agree with you for the most part Ron; freefliers should go last...and I'm one jumping at Z-hills.

In reply to:
It won't change a thing here I ask, and I get all kinds of stupid answers..... Including (We all have small canopies)?????

But, there were more freefliers jumping spaceballs in prior years-that meant getting out over the swamp (usually first) and pulling higher to get back to the DZ. To keep it simple, the freefliers sat together in the back. Did it evolve out of this good reason into just habit? (I don't know)Crazy


hagar  (C 68063)

Jan 2, 2003, 6:01 AM
Post #23 of 78 (2586 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

At my DZ we have this scheme:
What do you think?

Upwind:
Large flat groups
Small flat groups
Large freefly groups
Small freefly groups
Students
Tandem

Downwind:
Large freefly groups
Small freefly groups
Large flat groups
Small flat groups
Students
Tandem


winsor  (D 13715)

Jan 2, 2003, 6:42 AM
Post #24 of 78 (2566 views)
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Re: [hagar] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
At my DZ we have this scheme:
What do you think?

Upwind:
Large flat groups
Small flat groups
Large freefly groups
Small freefly groups
Students
Tandem

Downwind:
Large freefly groups
Small freefly groups
Large flat groups
Small flat groups
Students
Tandem

Bad plan.

The whole idea of exit order is to maintain separation in the air. If you come up with a plan that gets everybody back to the DZ, but includes the risk of collision, it is not an optimal solution.

If you jump enough, you will have your share of close calls when trying to avoid them. You cease to make avoiding collisions a priority, you do so at your own risk.


Blue skies,

Winsor


Rdutch  (D 24618)

Jan 2, 2003, 7:14 AM
Post #25 of 78 (2550 views)
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Re: [Ron] Exit Order, Who goes First? [In reply to] Can't Post

At my dz, we put out largest flat groups first, then smaller flat then hd ect. But some things also come into consideration, If there is a 4way team on the plane (almost every load has a 4way team) Most of the time they get out first (or should at least) because a 4way team can burn a lot of time in the door, (Our pilot's know this and turn the light on early for it so they wont waste exit time) ,and also most teams are in a hurry to get to the ground and get back up, so this help's. Other considerations that should take into account, if there is 2 groups of the same size, I think the group with the smallest (higest wingloaded) canopies should go first. Our team has had problems in the past with this. Canopy size should be a consideration, but Im not sure how or what way would be the best way to handle it.


(This post was edited by Rdutch on Jan 2, 2003, 7:16 AM)


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