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150 compared to 190

 

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Carla80  (B License)

Dec 31, 2002, 8:16 AM
Post #1 of 59 (2021 views)
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150 compared to 190 Can't Post

Ok, I am ready to buy my own gear. I have been renting a 190 Sabre from the dz for a few months now. I want to buy a 150 Sabre2, the thing is I have never jumped a 150. I know I need to jump one before buying one, but I'm actually pretty nervous about it. I only weigh 125, but I am still afraid it's going to bring me in super fast...is there a big difference in speed between the 190 and 150?? If I buy a 190 instead, then sometime soon(when I get the courage) I will jump a 150 and wish I had bought that. I already know that the 150 turns faster, and I'm not a real "canopy happy" person, so I'm not worried about turning low, my main concern is landing. Although I land the 190 well, I bring the toggles down slowly but all in one motion....people tell me with the 150 I will need to do a 2-step flare. Anyhow, my question is, will there be a big difference in the two canopies?? Or am I being way too concerned?


Jessica  (B 25202)

Dec 31, 2002, 8:24 AM
Post #2 of 59 (1972 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

You'll notice a huge difference between the two canopies. That's losing 40 square feet of fabric in one step. Can't you try a 170 for a while?

I jumped a 170 for the first part of my jump career, and recently switched to a 150. It's definitely faster, and that was only losing 20 square feet.

Being scared under canopy is no fun. Take it slow!


LilSally  (C License)

Dec 31, 2002, 8:55 AM
Post #3 of 59 (1953 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a big difference in speed when it comes to turns. You will lose altitude much quicker, but honestly if you are worried about coming in to land and noticing a big difference it is not that much(in my opinion). Landing a 150 in 10 mile winds, is about the same speed as landing a 190 on a no wind day. You don't have to do a two-step flare. Just don't yank them down at the last second, or it will most likely pop you back up and then drop ya in...that sucks Frown


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Dec 31, 2002, 8:56 AM
Post #4 of 59 (1952 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I know I need to jump one before buying one, but I'm actually pretty nervous about it.

I think that's your answer right there. If you're already nervous about jumping the canopy before you ever get under it, what are you going to do if you have problems on that jump? Are you going to be able to control the canopy if the winds gust up, or if someone cuts you off on final, or if you have to land out into someone's backyard? Take all these things into consideration before you buy. I don't understand why you are skipping over jumping a 170. Also, read a couple of the threads in the Incidents forum about the broken legs that people have gotten from downsizing too quickly.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 31, 2002, 8:58 AM
Post #5 of 59 (1951 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Simple answer... if you need to ask the answer is no.

Why are you set on a Sabre2 150? There are plenty of other canopies out there in different sizes to look at. Lotus 170's are great canopies as are Safire2's.

There will be a step up in proformance any time you downsize. People that say there is no difference really are'nt as intune with their canopies as they think they are. I did'nt think there was a difference on a few canopies until I kept flipping them in the same day and noticved the difference in proformance.

What is your loading on the 190? On the 150? On a 170?

I've got a 136 Jedei as my main canopy now, but I kept my old 150 main so that I can grab something a tad slower and a tad larger when I want to do balloon jumps and other things that I don't want a lot of speed. I've considered getting a 170 to replace my 150 since that would be a better choice for everyday use.

if the loading on the 150 is close to or over 1:1 you'll need the 2 stage flare to have soft landings. If you try the single stage flare you'll probally break a bone or two.

Best advice I can give before any downsizing is ger canopy coaching on what you are flying now, try some CRW with it. Learn a lot about canopy flight. Then SLOWLY step down one size, play all over again. Put a few dozen jumps on each size canopy. High altitude hop an pops are a great way to learn your canopy.


TheMonkey  (D License)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:08 AM
Post #6 of 59 (1942 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I only weigh 125

add 20 or 25 for gear, and you are out the door wingloading at 1:1 (or just under) is not a drastic wingloading....unless you are uncomfortable with it and then it is bad idea! borrow a 170 and put a couple jumps on it before you go smaller.....


(This post was edited by TheMonkey on Dec 31, 2002, 9:09 AM)


DaMan  (D 26248)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:22 AM
Post #7 of 59 (1932 views)
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Re: [TheMonkey] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

You can call PD and request a demo canopy for very cheap Tongue...I tried several before my purchase.

Be honest with them (and yourself) and they may be able to give you more help! (Kola was very helpful)


Ron

Dec 31, 2002, 9:40 AM
Post #8 of 59 (1920 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Don't skip the 170.

Get one from PD for two weeks and put some jumps on it.

You might not notice a large difference between the 190 and the 170.....Speed is relative. A 150 is a dog to me, might be way to fast for you. You need to be comfertable under a canopy to really learn it. I know a girl who bought a small canopy and is afraid to jump it. Her confidence is shot, and she almost hates to jump. I know TONS of people who buy a small canopy thinking its cool, and never really learn to fly it...they are too busy saving their lives on each landing to play with it.

Get the 170 Demo, and try to jump it on a no/low wind day.
It will then be the fastest it will ever be (unless you downwind it). If it feels fine to you, get a 150 Demo, and repeat this process.

You will know what canopy is the right size for you, just don't skip any sizes on the way down....Every canopy can teach you something. Most people really don't know the canopy they have before they get something else. The miss out on several valuble lessions. If you fly on the edge (or past) your comfort level, you will not learn anything other than how not to get hurt.

Ron


174fps  (C 3060)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:57 AM
Post #9 of 59 (1914 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

If you go and buy this 150 what size reserve are you
going to have.
Imagine you have a 150 reserve you have had a
high speed malfunction and have cut away.. 1200'
you are over trees and the only landing area is
a clearing that you can just make but will have
no time to face the wind.. so would you feel confident
enough to downwind this canopy into a small
landing area?
check out Billvon's criteria for downsizing
can you land your 190
downwind ,crosswind, uphill,downhill. no wind.
if you cant DON'T DOWNSIZE
pick up some used for your first set of gear
you can generally sell it for close to what you paid.

CoolAndrew


rhino  (D 22500)

Dec 31, 2002, 10:35 AM
Post #10 of 59 (1900 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Why the sabre2? Why not s Triathlon..

A Triathlon, Spectre class canopy would be a great starting point for you.

You don't want to put yourself under the 150 and get yourself into a situation where you are at low altitude and in a panic..

You need to learn slow speed flight first. A seven cell main is very good for that..

My 2c

Rhino


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 31, 2002, 11:18 AM
Post #11 of 59 (1884 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

The 150 will be fine. However the staged downsizing should not be skipped as you've read several times now.

The trouble with downsizing to a 150 in one shot is this: you have yet to jump a parachute that does does what you ask it too. the 190 turns when you pull down a toggle but it doesn't respond quickly and precisely. The 150 will do what ever you ask it to, whether-or-not...that's what you meant.

In other words, a sudden avoidance turn on the 190, may turn you away at a speed that's easy to deal with. That same turn on the 150 might be the same as politely asking the 150 to slam you into the ground. Make sense?

A 150 is sized MUCH better for someone who weighs 125. Borrow the 170 from PD (or someone else) so you get the feel of a parachute that responds to toggle input, the moment you input.
===================

Heavier people learn to fly a parachute earlier than lighter people. The student parachute actually responds a little. Lighter people get shafted. That's why downsizing slowly will be even MORE important to you even if you are conservative.
Be safe Smile


(This post was edited by hookitt on Dec 31, 2002, 11:20 AM)


rhino  (D 22500)

Dec 31, 2002, 4:15 PM
Post #12 of 59 (1842 views)
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Re: [hookitt] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeagh... She will only be 1:1 on the 150.. That should pretty much be a starting point..


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Dec 31, 2002, 5:00 PM
Post #13 of 59 (1833 views)
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Re: [rhino] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
She will only be 1:1 on the 150.. That should pretty much be a starting point..


Yeah...but keep in mind that 1.1:1 on a 150 is a LOT differen't than 1.1 on a 230. Huge performance difference.


Carla80  (B License)

Dec 31, 2002, 8:08 PM
Post #14 of 59 (1804 views)
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Re: [rhino] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

There is a girl at my dz with a 170, so I will try that first. Thanks for all the advice...I think I'm against the Triathlon because 2 guys at my home dz have them and they get bad line twists alot, causing both of them to have 2 cutaways in their last 200 jumps. Just my opinion...but Triathlon would be my last choice of canopy.....


hookitt  (D License)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:12 PM
Post #15 of 59 (1794 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Fantastic. Pull high and wring that thing out. Find the stall point, do some front and rear riser turns hard spirals Lots of test flairs. Have some fun.

C-ya


Jimbo  (D License)

Dec 31, 2002, 9:22 PM
Post #16 of 59 (1792 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Quote:
There is a girl at my dz with a 170, so I will try that first. Thanks for all the advice...I think I'm against the Triathlon because 2 guys at my home dz have them and they get bad line twists alot, causing both of them to have 2 cutaways in their last 200 jumps. Just my opinion...but Triathlon would be my last choice of canopy.....

Buy what you want, but please don't judge the Tri because two guys at your DZ get line twists on them. If they are constantly having problems then either:

a) There is a problem with their body position at deployment time.
b) Exceptionally sloppy packing is contributing to the twists
c) The canopies are severely out of trim.
d) all of the above.

The Tri's just aren't know for being a twisty canopy, as a matter of fact they're known for being extremely stable and easy to fly.

-
Jim


fergs  (F 383)

Dec 31, 2002, 10:31 PM
Post #17 of 59 (1782 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey Carla,

you are doing the right thing by jumping a borrowed 170 first.

My only comment is that you owe it to yourself to also try out a Spectre - preferably a 190 first, so you can compare to the canopy you've been jumping til now. Then try a 170 along with the 170 Sabre so you can compare the two.

I did around a thousand jumps on a Sabre - then changed to a Spectre a couple years ago. The Spectre is a really nice canopy - does everything well - and for a skydiver with thousands of jumps in front of you - it does a few things exceptionally.

The openings are really sweet (I have psycho packed it from new). That should be important for you as your confidence in yourself should never be damaged by that once-in-a-hundred slammer of an opening. You just won't see that with a properly packed Spectre.

The landings are soft, predictible in all wind conditions, and forgiving if you mis-time your flare a bit. This also helps with your confidence.

In flight, it's still a zippy canopy. You can even do a conventional accuracy approach on this canopy using deep brakes and be able to have impressive pin-point accuracy.

Oh yeah, it also packs smnaller than a same sized 9 cell.

No, I don't work for PD - but I have owned and jumped many many canopies over the past 30 years. When I was an instructor a couple of lifetimes ago, I came to the realisation that a good canopy, with correct training, had a great deal to do with confidence and skill building.

Sabre is a good canopy. For me, Spectre is better.

So go find a Spectre to try.

Blue Skies, fergs


eWave  (D License)

Jan 2, 2003, 5:40 AM
Post #18 of 59 (1696 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

I jumped my student time with PD Navigator 220. After graduation I started to jump with Merit 150, with no problems. It was not too fast, it was actually very fun canopy to play with on altitude. My load on 150 is ~1:1.1.

Then I tried also Sabre 170, and difference between 150 and 170 is huge. Don't want to jump anymore 170 cause it was so slow compared to that 150 Wink

It's up to you what you want to use. I like speed when I can control it, that's why I'm not nervous jumping on 150. I'm buying my own first gear and canopies what I look are 135 or 150.

If you are nervous, don't take too big steps. But it you thrust yourself, go for that 150. After few jumps you'll find that 170 beeing very slow boat Smile


rhino  (D 22500)

Jan 2, 2003, 6:17 AM
Post #19 of 59 (1684 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm aware.. Remember I believe much less than one to one is almost unsafe due to the canopy flying you instead of you flying the canopy..


rhino  (D 22500)

Jan 2, 2003, 6:19 AM
Post #20 of 59 (1685 views)
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Re: [Carla80] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
There is a girl at my dz with a 170, so I will try that first. Thanks for all the advice...I think I'm against the Triathlon because 2 guys at my home dz have them and they get bad line twists alot, causing both of them to have 2 cutaways in their last 200 jumps. Just my opinion...but Triathlon would be my last choice of canopy.....


Their is nothing at all wrong with a Triathlon. If they get line twists it is either packing, their opening body position or a REALLY old ass canopy out of trim.

I put 150 jumps on a Triathlon150. It was a fantastic canopy!!!!

And I am a canopy Nut remember ;)

Rhino


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2003, 6:21 AM
Post #21 of 59 (1680 views)
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Re: [rhino] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

>Remember I believe much less than one to one is almost unsafe due to the canopy flying you instead of you flying the canopy..

Base jumpers a loading their canopies at .6-.8 with no issues at all.


rhino  (D 22500)

Jan 2, 2003, 6:54 AM
Post #22 of 59 (1669 views)
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Re: [PhreeZone] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

That's fine.. We aren't talking about base jumping..

And I was stating MY BELIEF. The scariest times I have had under canopy were under bigger canopies.

That is speaking from my experience. You don't have to agree,,

Rhino


Ron

Jan 2, 2003, 8:08 AM
Post #23 of 59 (1657 views)
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Re: [rhino] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

OK, I have to disagree here as well.

A loading under a 1.1 is not dangerous....I have almost 1,000 jumps on 7 cells with less than a 1 to 1 wingload.

The danger is someone under ANY wingload that lets the canopy fly them insted of them flying the canopy.

Ron


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Jan 2, 2003, 9:29 AM
Post #24 of 59 (1639 views)
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Re: [Ron] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
A loading under a 1.1 is not dangerous


Uuuhhh...that's a pretty broad statement. Read the incidents forum of the guy that broke himself good on a "lightly loaded" Falcon 175. Unsure ANY parachute can be dangerous.....it's whether or not it kills you that's the difference.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Jan 2, 2003, 10:31 AM
Post #25 of 59 (1622 views)
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Re: [freeflir29] 150 compared to 190 [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Ron was responding to the comment that if you go under 1:1 its dangerous.

Sure underloading a canopy prevents you from jumping in anything over a moderate breeze, but other then that I've been under canopies just last year at a .65 loading on 13k clear and pulls and never had an issue. Sure it was slow, but it seems like the word slow has a negitive conotation with some jumpers. Slow is the best thing in the world to most other people. I think that anything above about a .5 wingloading is fairly safe in terms of still being able to be controlled.


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