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Toggle to unTwist?

 

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format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 4:32 AM
Post #1 of 93 (2743 views)
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Toggle to unTwist? Can't Post

I'm not giving any advice! As you can see I am a baby jumper, no insults please Smile

loaded at 1.6, I've had a foot long linetwist.
By spreading risers and kicking - I induced a very scary spinner which I chopped after 5-7 spins/2 secs.
By being frustrated, I've started seeking for a better solution than kicking.

Thanks to Brian Germain and his Test-Piloting skills in video "80 seconds", I could check a proper toggle input as the most logical, fastest and most effective reaction to linetwist. It started to un-twist after proper toggle input.

So, I wondered how to identify the proper toggle without danger of mistaking?

When you focus the lower end of linetwist - there are risers in front and in back. (whether left or right twist, it's made of two group of lines - one is behind another)
The back lines are leading to toggle needed for untwisting.

That was a theory until 2 days ago...

Diablo at WL1.3 made a 3x180deg linetwist.
- 1.5 sec focusing on back lines to choose a proper toggle and pulling 2ft down with both hands
- 1 sec later - 540 degrees twisted canopy came back under control
- unlocking another toggle

I like it. At 4000ft I can afford 3 seconds.

Bad news is I've lost more time setting slider down over unlocked toggles.

Obviously nobody taught me this procedure.
What do You think, why is that?

Sinke


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 4:55 AM
Post #2 of 93 (2717 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Diablo at WL1.3 made a 3x180deg linetwist.
- 1.5 sec focusing on back lines to choose a proper toggle and pulling 2ft down with both hands
- 1 sec later - 540 degrees twisted canopy came back under control
- unlocking another toggle

My last chop went from opening to chop in about 1.5 sec. You loose a lot of altitude and can black out spinning on your back in linetwists as you load up a canopy. I had made one revolution on my back before I could bring my hands back down from near my risers (never made it to my risers) to my handles.

Just food for thought. Besides your obviously bad choice in wingloading at your jump numbers.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 19, 2008, 5:34 AM
Post #3 of 93 (2699 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Diablo at WL1.3 made a 3x180deg linetwist.
- 1.5 sec focusing on back lines to choose a proper toggle and pulling 2ft down with both hands
- 1 sec later - 540 degrees twisted canopy came back under control
- unlocking another toggle
I like it. At 4000ft I can afford 3 seconds.

Bad news is I've lost more time setting slider down over unlocked toggles.
Sure. You are looking for trouble.

You would not have these kind of trouble jumping those canopies you should have.


format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 5:56 AM
Post #4 of 93 (2690 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Besides your obviously bad choice in wingloading at your jump numbers.
Thank you both for stating the obvious. Frown
(start a thread for attacking me)

In reply to:
I had made one revolution on my back before I could bring my hands back down from near my risers (never made it to my risers) to my handles.

Well, no wonder at Your WL. I could at 1.6

Can't you stick to a subject?

If you immediately do the right thing, might avoid spin.
(remember? kicking induced me a spin vs. toggle input)

And how right this thing is?

Sinke


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 6:10 AM
Post #5 of 93 (2679 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well, no wonder at Your WL. I could at 1.6

Don't think that just because you're not over 2.0 that spinning line twists could be a simple thing. I nearly spun in on my back about 6 years ago loaded at 1.7:1 on a Heatwave 170.

Your best cure is good body position, having the 3-rings even and proper packing techniques. These are things that you learn as you get hundreds of jumps and work yourself to an aggressive canopy at an aggressive wingloading.

Something else to remember is that pulling individual lines in line twists can damage the line set. Have a rigger check your canopy. A Diablo is a highly aggressive canopy, especially at your wingloading, you'll find that its not very stable during the opening sequence. This is exasperated by normal mistakes made by people with lower jump numbers.


format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 6:34 AM
Post #6 of 93 (2663 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Something else to remember is that pulling individual lines in line twists can damage the line set. Have a rigger check your canopy. A Diablo is a highly aggressive canopy, especially at your wingloading, you'll find that its not very stable during the opening sequence. This is exasperated by normal mistakes made by people with lower jump numbers.

Tnx. Point taken.
Yet I'll rather try to untwist it than having another reserve. Unimpressed

edit: to untwist it maybe than reserve for sure


(This post was edited by format on Aug 19, 2008, 6:37 AM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 6:48 AM
Post #7 of 93 (2655 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The best way to get out of line twist is not to load a parachute at 1.6 when you do not have enough experience to be jumping it ( this is the first link in what will probably be a chain of events that will lead to a very bad incendent)Crazy
To answer your question, understand that if you have sever line twist you may not be able to pull a toggle down anyways. I have used this method a couple of times, the best way is to pull down just slightly on a toggle and look which way the canopy is starting to turn. If it is the way you need the canopy to turn and more of that toggle, if it is not and more of the other toggle.


format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 7:14 AM
Post #8 of 93 (2631 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
if you have sever line twist you may not be able to pull a toggle down anyways.

Brian Germain in "80 seconds" video had SEVERE twisted Fast spinner, he showed us some toggle pulling there... with results.

In reply to:
pull down just slightly on a toggle and look which way the canopy is starting to turn. If it is the way you need the canopy to turn and more of that toggle, if it is not and more of the other toggle.

No. Usualy you don't have time to experiment.
Either be sure what ur doing or don't try it.


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Aug 19, 2008, 7:34 AM
Post #9 of 93 (2613 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Brian Germain is also a HIGHLY skilled and experienced canopy pilot and skydiver. What do you think he'd tell you if he knew your experience level, WL, and canopy choice?


TheCaptain  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 7:38 AM
Post #10 of 93 (2607 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

 The only canopy I have ever used a toggle to unspin on was a tandem PT 365 and trust me some times they can spin up tight enough to not allow a toggle to be pulled as I have been there and done that.
Also once again the best anwser is not to load a canopy at 1.6 to 1 with 122 jumps.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 7:45 AM
Post #11 of 93 (2599 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
No. Usualy you don't have time to experiment.
Either be sure what ur doing or don't try it.
Wow, for a whole 122 jumps it sounds like you have everything figured out. I guess we should just come you for advice.
You know, I have been in line twist with a canopies loaded 2.3 to 1 and I have always had enough time to think about the correct response and execute it. Maybe your biggest issue is your lack of experience and wingloading a canopy at 1.6 at 122 jumps


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Aug 19, 2008, 7:49 AM)


format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 7:49 AM
Post #12 of 93 (2593 views)
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Re: [linebckr83] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Brian Germain is also a HIGHLY skilled and experienced canopy pilot and skydiver. What do you think he'd tell you if he knew your experience level, WL, and canopy choice?

He was continenced about it, unlike most of you.

"With only 122 jumps, I am sure it is hard for you to convince others that your unorthodox actions were correct. However, I have always subscribed to the philosophy that, if it worked, it was one of the correct possible answers.

You can tell them that Brian Germain agrees with your choice.

Glad to hear that you saved yourself a repack. Remember to always open high and know your altitude when you implement any fix. If it doesn't work, you still want to have enough time to get number two out.

Blue Skies
Brian
"

That's what constructive is. Smile

Sinke


AggieDave  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 7:54 AM
Post #13 of 93 (2587 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

E-mail him back and tell him your wingloading.

Did you inspect your lines for damage? You never said if you did or not.


phoenixlpr  (D 3049)

Aug 19, 2008, 8:05 AM
Post #14 of 93 (2575 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
That's what constructive is. Smile

Do you know what would make you an exceptional pilot?

Just not getting into that sh1t by your own choice require using your supernatural skills.....

Your life can be quite short to make all mistakes done by others before. There is no cure for constructive stupidity.

I have seen someone like you under a Demon 150, crossing the way of a taxiing Let-410, than skining his leg by doing cartwheels on the tarmac apron through a wing suit.


format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 8:22 AM
Post #15 of 93 (2568 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
E-mail him back and tell him your wingloading.
Did you inspect your lines for damage? You never said if you did or not.

Oh yes, he knew it while writing it.
A "continence" is in a dictionary.

Damaged lines? Today I've learned this (from you), rigger said it was jumped today. So I'll go check it
now. Wink


Fast  (D 28237)

Aug 19, 2008, 8:48 AM
Post #16 of 93 (2541 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I am concerned, pulling toggles during line twists is a no go. I don't think you can accurately determine which toggle will fix the problem. If you pick wrong and make the spin worse, it may become an unresolvable situation.

Consider for a moment what would happen if your 3-ring cutaway system wasn't maintained well and was not operating at maximum efficiency. Maybe your cutaway cable is dirty or maybe kinked at the grommet or your hard housing (you have hard housings in your risers right??) has shifted and isn't protecting you. Now the force on the cutaway cable is too great.

What if your wrong toggle pull makes the line twists travel all the way down into the risers?

Now you can't cutaway.

Having been in a few situation with nasty spinning mains I know how fast things happen and how hard it is to determine what exactly is happening, let alone pick the right riser.

Might have worked for you this one time but that does not make it a good idea or something that people should try to use on a regular basis. It's akin to saying that just because I looked both ways before I ran a red stoplight if I just do that all the time it's ok to run red lights all the time. Might work but the results if it doesn't are catastrophic!

What level of risk you are willing to assume is up to you. Based on your choice of wing loading (jumping at 1.6 with less than 200 jumps has proven time and time again in history to be a fatal mistake) I would hazard a guess that you don't really value your life or health.


(This post was edited by Fast on Aug 19, 2008, 8:49 AM)


Andy9o8  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 8:49 AM
Post #17 of 93 (2540 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

It looks to me like Brian was addressing only your choice of handling the line-twists before resorting to cutting away, and not your choice of canopy WL per se.

Your attitude is familiar. Seen it often enough to recognize it, and to know not to waste time arguing with it. I hope you remain unharmed long enough to gain the experience you need. I don't expect you to listen to others whose advice does not validate whatever notions you already have about your abilities and the choices you make.


format  (B 15348)

Aug 19, 2008, 9:09 AM
Post #18 of 93 (2526 views)
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Re: [Andy9o8] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Your attitude is familiar. Seen it often enough to recognize it, and to know not to waste time arguing with it. I hope you remain unharmed long enough to gain the experience you need. I don't expect you to listen to others whose advice does not validate whatever notions you already have about your abilities and the choices you make.

On this thread - NOBODY is asking you all your WELL known opignion on WL/Jump#

Let the people give their angle on toggling untwist!
Proper toggle is not hard to figure right away, you just have to read.

Sinke the Flamed


linebckr83  (D 30571)

Aug 19, 2008, 9:50 AM
Post #19 of 93 (2506 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

Why is it so hard for you to listen to people who have "been there and done that"? We have basically the same experience and I have no problem listening to the experienced folk. Afterall, they have done it and I have not. Your attitude irritates me because I have read more than one incident report with newer jumpers like us with your careless attitude Mad


livendive  (D 21415)

Aug 19, 2008, 11:15 AM
Post #20 of 93 (2474 views)
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Re: [TheCaptain] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The only canopy I have ever used a toggle to unspin on was a tandem PT 365 and trust me some times they can spin up tight enough to not allow a toggle to be pulled as I have been there and done that.
Also once again the best anwser is not to load a canopy at 1.6 to 1 with 122 jumps.

I had to use this method on an Icarus 330 this weekend. It was 4 or so twists and for some reason I couldn't even get us started in the right direction with mere kicking. After a dozen or so attempts to kick out, I decided to give something else a try. Pulled a toggle and 2 seconds later was straightened out. I still wouldn't recommend it as the first course of action, but I was glad to have the idea sitting in my bag of tricks.

And yes, jumping a Diablo at 1.3 or any canopy at 1.6 with only 122 jumps is just plain dumb.

*edited for accuracy

Blues,
Dave


(This post was edited by livendive on Aug 19, 2008, 11:17 AM)


TheCaptain  (D License)

Aug 19, 2008, 11:25 AM
Post #21 of 93 (2468 views)
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Re: [livendive] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

 I personally would perfer to kick out but with the Icarus and the PT, they really do not like to kick out. I have only toggled out of line twist 3 times. All of which I tried kicking out first ( I agree great tool for the tool box but not first one to use)


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Aug 19, 2008, 11:26 AM)


Broke  (A License)

Aug 19, 2008, 11:39 AM
Post #22 of 93 (2456 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Your attitude is familiar. Seen it often enough to recognize it, and to know not to waste time arguing with it. I hope you remain unharmed long enough to gain the experience you need. I don't expect you to listen to others whose advice does not validate whatever notions you already have about your abilities and the choices you make.

On this thread - NOBODY is asking you all your WELL known opignion on WL/Jump#

Let the people give their angle on toggling untwist!
Proper toggle is not hard to figure right away, you just have to read.

Sinke the Flamed

Why don't you ask Brian Germain his advice on W/L for Jump Numbers


Fab  (C License)

Aug 19, 2008, 12:03 PM
Post #23 of 93 (2440 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

540 degrees twisted?? That's not even two full turns...That's nothing!! You should be able to clear them without using any toggles.

I had about 2800+ degrees on my katana at 1.7. Took me a while but got out of them without using toggles.


ficus  (D 29186)

Aug 19, 2008, 12:29 PM
Post #24 of 93 (2419 views)
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Re: [format] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

WTF people. His canopy choice has nothing to do with his post. There is an interesting discussion to be had here and you guys are trying to turn it into the weekly newbie-wingloading post.

Yes, his canopy choice is too much too soon. That doesn't mean his idea is immediately invalid or not worth discussing.

(I'm not talking to people like Fast, who actually addressed the issue and then added an admonishment about OP's canopy choice.)


tetra316  (D 26945)

Aug 19, 2008, 12:33 PM
Post #25 of 93 (2413 views)
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Re: [Broke] Toggle to unTwist? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Your attitude is familiar. Seen it often enough to recognize it, and to know not to waste time arguing with it. I hope you remain unharmed long enough to gain the experience you need. I don't expect you to listen to others whose advice does not validate whatever notions you already have about your abilities and the choices you make.

On this thread - NOBODY is asking you all your WELL known opignion on WL/Jump#

Let the people give their angle on toggling untwist!
Proper toggle is not hard to figure right away, you just have to read.

Sinke the Flamed

Why don't you ask Brian Germain his advice on W/L for Jump Numbers

Wingloading / Number of Jumps
1.0 / <100
1.1 / 100-199
1.2 / 200-299
1.3 / 300-399
1.4 / 400-499
1.5 / 500-599
1.6 / 600-699
1.7 / 700-799
1.8 / 800-899
1.9 / 900-999
2.0 / 1000+


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