I jump one alot clint. the openings are usually great with the exception of the hard turn that mine sometimes goes into. I unstow the brakes and counter it to straighten it out. I attribute this to the radical elliptical design. Toggle pressure is light but the canopy does have a problem in turbulent conditions. I'm guessing its from the shallowness of the last few cells? If I remember right I believe the manufacturer even warns against turbulent conditions. I've had no problem with it in steady wind. But gusty wind or flying over a thermal surface low is scary with this canopy. Great canopy in smooth conditions. going on weather hold or jumping another canopy if its inconsistent winds.
Then post a summary of what has changed on this airfoil along with a manufacturer statement that the new and improved version is as safe in turbulence as any other canopy. "Injury, death, and maimed" are my only personal association with a HOP but I understand that they're very good canopies for wide open DZs.
Then post a summary of what has changed on this airfoil along with a manufacturer statement that the new and improved version is as safe in turbulence as any other canopy. "Injury, death, and maimed" are my only personal association with a HOP but I understand that they're very good canopies for wide open DZs.[/r]
Can you detail where they have specifically "killed and maimed"?
I have jumped one around 2000 times and have not encountered any problem that would stop me using one. All I know is that out of the 7 different tandem canopies I have jumped I would go with the HOP first off..........
That's why I say BOLLOX to your statement. Prove the canopy is a killer and I may change my mind.
After these I'm hoping that TM's got smart as to where they can be used - which is wide open DZ's. You can't risk an out landing around lots of obstacles with a HOP.
I don't totally agree with the wide open DZ either. I have found HOPs to be terrible with thermals as well, which we all know can happen in wide open areas. I have seen HOPs fold in half on finals under 50ft on light wind days.
I made a handful of jumps on a friends personal HOP 330. He swore up and down it was the shit. After a few jumps I quit jumping it because I didn't like it's flight and landing characteristics.
After watching him jump it for some time, I also determined that it did some weird stuff in turbulence. And not just in high winds, but in light winds with thermals. Any canopy will exhibit instability in turbulence. Especially if landed downwind of obstacles etc. But what is important is the tendency for the canopy to recover from instability (or not). The Icarus we jump will lose end cells right and left in turbulence, but they pop in and out just as quick. The HOP seemed to lose cells which would then wrap under the leading edge of the canopy and stay there for several seconds. I could see how in extreme circumstances this could lead to a loss of directional control or diving turn into the ground.
I would rather miss the load and wait for another canopy than jump another HOP.
easily the best canopy i have jumped,makes the icarus feel like a truck,i also think the turbulence thing is a fallacy,since they altered the trim to a steeper angle
If the turbulence thing is a fallacy, why did they feel a need to change the trim?
Also I hear alot of people who LIKE the HOP say they won't jump it in turbulent conditions.
Can you always predict when and where you will experience turbulence?
Since the answer to this is NO, I will jump a canopy that does not exhibit unstable flight characteristics in turbulence.
(This post was edited by bclark on Sep 4, 2008, 8:38 PM)
We have two hop 330's at our dropzone, both have significantly differnt characteristics. The older one is a first generation hop, its openings are really nice and gentle but like a high performance sports canopy it is very twitchy and can spin up real fast. Once its open it flies way better than any other tandem canopy ive got myt hands on, its fast, responsive, has lots of flare power fpor landing. The second is the latest hop, just looking at it you can tell it has been totally redesigned, no longer does it have that paraglider shape it looks far more conventional. The openings are significantly better, still gentle but it is much more predictable now. Once it opens it flies really well, out performing the icarus with ease, but compared to the original its a bus! The biggest problem with both of the canopies is turbulance both generations hate turbulence. They do not react to turbulance like any other canopy tandem or sports that ive seen, the end cells regularly collapse folding under as if they are clapping (in my head that seems like a good description!). That in itsself is not so strange its the fact that you do not lose altitude when the canopy does it, infact if you dont look at it you can hardly tell there is so much movment going on above you. It will keep flying through most turbulence with no loss of performance it simply does not instill confidence, but it reaches a point when the canopy seems to give up totally and fully collapses which is clearly not desirable especially close to the ground.
Over all a great canopy on good weather days that cant be beaten but if your jumping full time and 'income jumping' come into the equation you simply cannot beat the icarus with its good all around performance in all conditions.
Great info from everyone. It sounds like most of the jumps are done on the other side of the world. I asked the manufacturer about the turbulent questions and he sent me this attachment.
I also asked about high altitude dz's. Never got an answer yet on that but he did answer the turbulent question below:
"How is the canopy at high altitude? High Density Alititude?
I'm at 4550' MSL and the DA on average is 7000'. Plus, when we open it's 9500' MSL. Do you have any experience with this type of conditions?
And the turbulence, it's hot, about 85-100F every jump. BUMPY, winds are squirly, dust devils sometimes in landing area. So this is really why my main concern is, IS IT A GOOD CANOPY IN TURBULENCE.
Please get back to me with any info on these types of conditions."
His Answer: "I've talked to Tibor Glesk who developed the HOP330 in conjunction with JOJO WINGS - he's a CI and tandem instructor with 15,000 jumps and over 30 years experience and owns the Sunshine Coast Skydivers DZ in Australia. He says your DZ conditions are pretty harsh to say the least, and that the HOP330 is a high performance canopy and therefore can be susceptible to turbulence BUT as you will have read from the Performance Review from NZONE they think that it handles well in turbulence despite some end cell collapses "Canopy is sensitive but not vulnerable in turbulence. Even with our very turbulent conditions, we’ve had many end cell collapses but not a canopy collapse. However this canopy recovers faster than any other canopy - and without loosing altitude. If turbulent on landing conditions, it flares great even loaded to its limits." What Tibor has ended up asking me to tell you is that no one will know better than you ... he is happy for you to buy and try and if you don't like it we'll take the HOP330 back, no questions asked (although we would like your feedback, but it's not a condition of our refund policy). We have canopies jumping all over the world - Namibia in Africa, South America etc and don't really receive detailed feedback, due mainly to the language difficulties I think. However what I can say, is that over 95% of our customers order more canopies or give us referrals .... I completely understand your position, and hope this helps with your decision a little."
Hey I'm a relatively new tandem instructor (250 tandems) And i have had the pleasure to fly a few different tandem cannopies Percision 365/330 Icarrus 330 and the hop 330 as everyone has said the hop tends to open nice, and have low toggle pressure. All summer long with consistent or nill winds my fellow instructors and I would race to grab the hop equipped rigs. weather we had a 95lb. girl or a 225lb. dude. Alas The winter has brought us some turbulence and I have had the end cells clap togeather on final and barely reinflate before touchdown. By far most terrifying thing I have yet experinced in skydiving. I have since personally decided not to jump the cannopy untill the nice wheather comes around again. Other instructors have also made the same call.
Id rather drive a truck that gets me and my student home safe. Than somthing sporty that takes me out for months if not for good. I don't know about you guys but $40 a jump dosent pay for broken legs. Just my .02
I wouldn't exactly call the Precision/Icarus 330/365 canopies "trucks". From my perspective, they're just high enough performance to keep instructor fatigue well-managed while also being stable enough to keep instructor injuries to a minimum. I've also got an Icarus 400 that gets flown when necessary for conditions or for instructor's peace of mind, but it sits far more often than the 330's.
i've done more than 1500 tandems on hops and before that a lot on icarus. lots of them were done in very turbulent conditions. i like the hop but i have to disagree with what was said earlier. do NOT fly them with any breaks in turbulence! you wanna be in full drive especially before landing. avoid flying with a tailwind when low because this increases the risk of collapses severely. so set up in a way that you can side crab your approach before going straight on final. (this is all in strong turbulent wind) this canopy is prone to collapses in turbulent wind condition especially with light passengers so you wanna make sure you avoid doing anything that might cause them close to the ground. without turbulence this is a great canopy. great performance low price. hope this helps. volk
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
(This post was edited by Skydive_volker on Nov 18, 2008, 11:47 PM)