Forums: Skydiving: Gear and Rigging:
180 Day Repack

 

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masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 16, 2008, 4:07 AM
Post #1 of 49 (2477 views)
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180 Day Repack Can't Post

The repack cycle will be going to 180 days in Mid-November.
It was approved a few weeks ago but will not be published until then.

So who will be increasing their repack prices and how much if any?

BS,
MEL


Unstable  (D 28930)

Jul 16, 2008, 5:31 AM
Post #2 of 49 (2421 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I dunno yet - I'm thinking about going to $50-55 then (I currently charge $45 for a basic A.I.R. for a Sport (not student) rig).

I guess I would also need to keep in mind that while a good, responsible jumper would keep his gear safe and clean for the entire 180 day cycle, most jumpers, won't. I'll probably increase my services as well to include basic repairs and more detailed maintenance that many don't include in the basic A.I.R.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 16, 2008, 6:11 AM
Post #3 of 49 (2391 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

But how did they write it? Did they make any changes from the proposed rule?

Effective date?

Not much new here except a possible publication date. I'll believe it when I see it. They were a couple of months late on the NPRM publication date.

And everyone please remember it isn't in force at least until they publish it and then it will depend on the implementation. We've had to educate a number of customers and riggers that it hadn't went to 180 days when the NPRM was published.

Will everything at the time of implementation simply extend to 180 days or will it only be things packed after implementation? Or some varient?

I haven't searched for the thread but I asked this question back either when or before the NPRM came out. All of the possible opinions from riggers and skydivers.

From riggers;
Same work, same price.
More service life, proportional increase.
More service life, some increase but not 50%.

From skydivers,
No more work, shouldn't cost more.
I budget X per year. Gladly still pay that amount.
Whatever.
Price should go down because "supply" will be the same but demand will be lower. (There was a vigorous debate supporting this point)

Me, I haven't decided. Some of my pilot customers commented to the FAA mainly that it would decrease the cost of complience. They hadn't asked me if the price was going up.Wink Actually, I have their parachutes right now! Maybe I should increase the price and beat the rush.Cool

I don't make my living rigging so it isn't as much of an issue. IF I had normal business overhead, depreciation on capital investment, need for income to stay in business, etc. ? But I do use this income to subsidize my PIA membership and activities. I spend much more on equipment and education (PIA) and industry service (PIA) than I make rigging. So, will I be able to continue those activities without an increase? I don't know.

Should have made this a poll MEL.


RMURRAY

Jul 16, 2008, 8:55 AM
Post #4 of 49 (2298 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

in canada we have had the 180 day cycle for some time now. I pay 60 bucks and the CDN and US dollar are at par these days.

Rob


SpacemanSpiff  (D License)

Jul 16, 2008, 8:57 AM
Post #5 of 49 (2292 views)
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Re: [councilman24] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

According to a press release on Allan Silver's website.....

"It should be noted that under this new regulation, existing repacks will not be automatically extended. The new 180-day repack cycle will only take effect after the next repack that is performed by a certificated parachute rigger."

He also mentioned that the rule would take effect on or before February 20th, 2009. However, his post was from late May and MEL may have more updated information.

http://www.silverparachutes.com/...se_2008-05-23_2_.pdf

Any chance of posting an advanced copy of the rule MEL?

nick


Colson

Jul 16, 2008, 9:04 AM
Post #6 of 49 (2280 views)
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Re: [councilman24] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

I dont see why the rates cant go up $5-$10. That increase is nothing across 180 days. Not even close to a proportional increase. People should be happy to see only $5 extra.


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 16, 2008, 9:18 AM
Post #7 of 49 (2263 views)
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Re: [SpacemanSpiff] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Feb. 2009 is the deadline for FAA action, no matter what, based on the NPRM and comment period.

MEL called me after my post. He's on dial up and doing much online. He was given a Novemeber pulication date, but I was given a date by the FAA for publication of the NPRM and it was two months late.

He believes it was coming out substantially the same as the proposed rule. He wasn't sure it was identical.

He believes that anything packed under the old rule would "expire" in 120 days. Anything under the new rule (the next day) would 'expire' in 180 days. He said the Feds were working on and considering 'grandfathering'. I'm not sure they need to. The reg essentially reads inspected and packed within the last 120 days. If that changes to 180 days it could just be applied as it reads, to anything within the 180 days no matter the relation to the publication/effective date. But MEL implied that was still being decided.

MEL knew of one manufacturer who was going to raise rate proportionately, by 50%.


hackish  (No License)

Jul 16, 2008, 11:41 AM
Post #8 of 49 (2165 views)
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Re: 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't see putting up AIR prices because of the 180 day switch but every year jump prices go up as do wages. Why shouldn't the cost of a repack too? Every repack costing the same as 2 high altitude jumps would be a nice way to have it go up with inflation.

-Michael


Unstable  (D 28930)

Jul 16, 2008, 12:35 PM
Post #9 of 49 (2126 views)
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Re: [hackish] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

  Hell, on another note, it doesn't take ME any more work, time or effort to Inspect, repack, and ready a reserve for a 180 day cycle than a 120 day cycle.

Either way, your post just brought up a good point. I should just charge my customers 2 or 3 jump tickets, and let the dropzone I'm at dictate the price...Smile


councilman24  (D 8631)

Jul 16, 2008, 12:41 PM
Post #10 of 49 (2116 views)
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Re: [hackish] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

When I started the local rate was $15. I may have set mine at $20. Almost all rounds. When ram airs reserves came around I charged more for Ram Airs than rounds by $5. Later, I charged more for rounds than ram airs because I had to get out the tables. Now, most pilot rigs are $5 more than skydiving rigs. For no go reason except they get a little more drop off pick up service. They also go up by complexity.

This year the local rate is $45 for skydiving rigs. Maybe a little less than 2 high loads. In 1983 when I started it was about a $1 a thousand. High was at most 10K, 7.5 in the Cessna.

So, it was and still is about double.


Bertt  (D 99999)

Jul 16, 2008, 2:03 PM
Post #11 of 49 (2049 views)
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Re: [hackish] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, the equivalent of what you said would be two King Air jump tickets per repack. I think that's a very reasonable way to index the cost of the repack to the overall cost of skydiving.


Martini  (D 23756)

Jul 16, 2008, 8:49 PM
Post #12 of 49 (1919 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

 Lessee here, going from 120 to 180 days is an increase of 33%, packjobs could go from say $45 to $60 to parallel that. So if the FAA okays a 1200 day cycle then a packjob should cost $450. I'm just sayin. If you think I don't appreciate my rigger(s) you'd be way wrong. I work by the hour, if there's half as much work available nobody pays me double.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jul 16, 2008, 9:43 PM
Post #13 of 49 (1894 views)
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Re: [Martini] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Lessee here, going from 120 to 180 days is an increase of 33%, packjobs could go from say $45 to $60 to parallel that. So if the FAA okays a 1200 day cycle then a packjob should cost $450. I'm just sayin. If you think I don't appreciate my rigger(s) you'd be way wrong. I work by the hour, if there's half as much work available nobody pays me double.
Ya the weather sucks here in October and I usually get less than half as many tandems as in September. I just told my boss I need twice as much per tandem. He is looking at me funny.
Maybe we can double the price to the customers. Ya, that's the ticket.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 16, 2008, 10:32 PM
Post #14 of 49 (1878 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

It's about time. They talk about it for many years. But a bit late for me since I go at Skydive Chicago Summerfest next week and have to repack my reserve which is not due in Canada but over 120 days for the US.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 16, 2008, 11:00 PM
Post #15 of 49 (1867 views)
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Re: [hackish] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Hackish, you have to be careful since at Lodi California the cost for a high jump is 15$. Anyway I always have considered that the rigger's job is not really appreciated as it should be. Riggers have more responsibilities than a doctor and in case of a fatal accident, the jumper who will bounce will not be able anymore to sue the rigger but be sure his family will. When doctors make mistake it will be very difficult to prove it and if you do so expect to have a lot of trouble with the doctors lawyers. Price for a reserve repack should reflect no only the job done but the responsibility involved. After all, this is the rigger's signature and seal which are on the rig. As a jumper it is your last chance when the main fails.
Changing from 120 days to 180 days is a 50% increase and since the rig will be more used (potentially 50% more) the price should be 50% more. With a car when you missed a check up and maintenance then another one and so on, you finish by suddenly paying the big price...We have to remind the jumpers that a reserve repack includes an inspection of the reserve but also an inspection of the whole rig.


feuergnom  (D License)

Jul 17, 2008, 1:33 AM
Post #16 of 49 (1848 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
We have to remind the jumpers that a reserve repack includes an inspection of the reserve but also an inspection of the whole rig.

that is the point hardly anybody gets.


pilotdave  (D License)

Jul 17, 2008, 3:50 AM
Post #17 of 49 (1830 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Doctors are also required (in the US) to have malpractice insurance. Too bad (and thank goodness) that there's no such thing for riggers...

Dave


Martini  (D 23756)

Jul 17, 2008, 7:50 AM
Post #18 of 49 (1745 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right about the 50% increase, not the 33% i quoted. I can't agree about the extra charge being at all based on the amount of use the rig gets. I might make six jumps on a repack, you might make two hundred. What's that got to do with the amount of work the rigger performs? You pay for a service plain and simple. If the FAA shortens the repack cycle to 90 days from 120 should I expect to pay less for an AIR?


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2008, 8:51 AM
Post #19 of 49 (1714 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

>Changing from 120 days to 180 days is a 50% increase and since the
>rig will be more used (potentially 50% more) the price should be 50%
>more.

Why? What additional work will be done?

Just to play devil's advocate, if you believe in market forces, prices for repacks will _drop._ Same number of riggers, less work = riggers more desperate for work, may be willing to repack for less to retain customers (especially if Joe Other Rigger just raised prices by 50%!)


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 17, 2008, 9:59 AM
Post #20 of 49 (1691 views)
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Re: [billvon] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
>Changing from 120 days to 180 days is a 50% increase and since the
>rig will be more used (potentially 50% more) the price should be 50%
>more.

Why? What additional work will be done?

I think he is talking rigger "exposure" here.

If something happens, we all know that the FAA and lawyers will come knocking on the rigger's door.

If you look at it that way, the following applies:

120 Day repack @$50.00 = 41.66 cents a day

180 Day repack @$75.00 = 41.66 cents a day


....etc.


Cheers,
MEL


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 17, 2008, 10:11 AM
Post #21 of 49 (1687 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply][quote]
>Changing from 120 days to 180 days is a 50% increase and since the
>rig will be more used (potentially 50% more) the price should be 50%
>more.

Why? What additional work will be done?
[/quote]

I think he is talking rigger "exposure" here.

If something happens, we all know that the FAA and lawyers will come knocking on the rigger's door.

If you look at it that way, the following applies:

120 Day repack @$50.00 = 41.66 cents a day

180 Day repack @$75.00 = 41.66 cents a day


....etc.


Cheers,
MEL[/reply]

It's a fair question - what additional work will be done at this repack vs the old one?

I could see additional or more detailed inspection, or the like and would be glad to hear those discussion. The other discussions are a bit silly. How about detailing it out?

The talk that prices should go up for the same task indicates hiring a rigger on retainer by the year, not by the task. Perhaps that's the proposal?


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 17, 2008, 10:13 AM
Post #22 of 49 (1684 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If something happens, we all know that the FAA and lawyers will come knocking on the rigger's door.

can you explain this to me? I use the same rigger, so he has 'exposure' no matter what. Wouldn't packing less often provide fewer opportunities for mistakes instead of more?


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 17, 2008, 10:21 AM
Post #23 of 49 (1679 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
can you explain this to me? I use the same rigger, so he has 'exposure' no matter what. Wouldn't packing less often provide fewer opportunities for mistakes instead of more?

1. The rig will see more wear and tear between pack jobs.

2.If a jumper goes in for what ever reason, that is always that question of "who packed it".

That brings us back to the FAA and the lawyers. Thankfully it usually never goes that far, but it does/has the other 10% of the time.

Cheers,
MEL


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 17, 2008, 10:22 AM
Post #24 of 49 (1679 views)
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Re: [masterrigger1] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

>I think he is talking rigger "exposure" here.
>If something happens, we all know that the FAA and lawyers will come
>knocking on the rigger's door.

I agree 100%. But the exposure is the same whether the repack cycle is 120 or 180 days.

>120 Day repack @$50.00 = 41.66 cents a day
>180 Day repack @$75.00 = 41.66 cents a day

I don't know many riggers who carry liability insurance. In a relatively free market, if some riggers _do_ carry such insurance, and it requires they raise their prices significantly, jumpers will choose riggers who do not carry it.


masterrigger1  (D 14167)

Jul 17, 2008, 10:30 AM
Post #25 of 49 (1674 views)
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Re: [billvon] 180 Day Repack [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I agree 100%. But the exposure is the same whether the repack cycle is 120 or 180 days.

This is where I disagree.

I am "exposed" for 180 days instead of 120.
The risk of something going arye with the rig goes up since it is used longer between pack cycles.

The risk is increased......

BS,
MEL


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