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stilleto vs katana

 

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11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 12, 2008, 11:17 PM
Post #1 of 32 (2548 views)
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stilleto vs katana Can't Post

I just bought a new to me rig, with said hard opening, very quick dive recovery... too quick for my liking stilleto 150. I plan on learning to swoop. Its a blast to fly, But quick recovery plus my learning curve Blah Blah I was told katana would be a better choice.
Comments or suggestions appreciated.
Cheers


(This post was edited by 11.5secman on Jul 12, 2008, 11:36 PM)


P-dro

Jul 13, 2008, 4:40 AM
Post #2 of 32 (2506 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Start with a Sabre2, it's a good introduction to the Katana with a longer recovery arc, but more forgiving and less ground hungry than the Katana...


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 13, 2008, 6:13 AM
Post #3 of 32 (2492 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

At 200 jumps a Katana 150 would be a bad choice for you. I'm assuming that you want to continue to learn how to swoop. I also assume that you want to learn quickly. Choosing a canopy that is "too much canopy" for you will put you behind the curve when it comes to swooping. That means you will be spending 90% of the time behind the canopy trying to catch up and only 10% of the time learning.

So a more conservative canopy choice gives you the chance to change that around to 20% flying the canopy and 80% learning.

A stiletto is a fine canopy. I've put a number of jumps on them over the years; however, if you are wanting to progress into jumping a modern swoop canopy it doesn't fit well into the progression. You'll have to take some steps forward, then some steps back.

A Sabre2, to Katana, to a Velocity is a good progression.

I suggest you try a Sabre2 150 and continue to jump one until you have progressed in skill and jumps to have downsized to where you're loading a Sabre2 about 1.7. Jump at 1.7 for a good while, then transition to the same sized Katana. Continue in the same manner with the Katana until you are at 1.9. Once you have that sized Katana dialed in, then you're ready to move on.

That is a good progression with canopies that were designed to compliment each other. The above progression should take you about 800-1000 jumps. That seems like a long time, but by traveling that road you will be a swooper at 1000 jumps that some swoopers at 3000 jumps can't be.


Premier SkymonkeyONE  (D 12501)

Jul 13, 2008, 6:14 AM
Post #4 of 32 (2489 views)
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Re: [P-dro] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Start with a Sabre2, it's a good introduction to the Katana with a longer recovery arc, but more forgiving and less ground hungry than the Katana...

Well said.


erdnarob  (D 364)

Jul 13, 2008, 9:20 AM
Post #5 of 32 (2447 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

A Katana is way better than a Stilleto. It has almost the same planeform but is trimed differently. A Katana has 38 attachments points 5A, 5B, 5C and 4 D each side (not including the secondary steering lines) while I think the Stilleto has only 36 attachments points. The Katana has a pitch angle of 18 degrees which makes it a diver when turning (this is the highest pitch angle I have measured so far including the crossbraced canopies).
The Stilleto is a 15 years old designs while the Katana has better flying features than the Stilleto. Soft opening, quite stable after opening, recovery of a turn without using opposing toggle... etc. I have a Katana 170 and fly it very conservatively so far and the flare is comparable to the Sabre 2-170 ie. very powerful.
Suggestion of progression using Sabre 2 >> Katana >> Velocity or Icarus VX/FX/JVX is the best way.


BIGUN  (D 23385)

Jul 13, 2008, 10:26 AM
Post #6 of 32 (2432 views)
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Re: [erdnarob] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I was about to make a jump from conservative to aggressive swooping by going from my Safire2 (W/L 1.65) to a Chaos (W/L 2.1) when AggieDave suggested that I milk every mistake out of the Safire2 in a swooping (canopy control) class first, and offered me the use of his Katana to begin the top end performance learning (which I haven't had a chance to take him up on yet).

His advice combined with your "Suggestion of progression using Sabre 2 >> Katana >> Velocity or Icarus VX/FX/JVX is the best way" is great advice to live by (or at least not get seriously busted up during the learning curve).


(This post was edited by BIGUN on Jul 13, 2008, 10:30 AM)


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 13, 2008, 11:43 PM
Post #7 of 32 (2311 views)
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Re: [BIGUN] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah my last canopy was a sabre2 170, got a screamin deal on this new one with the stiletto 150. So I wasn't to conserned with what the main was cause I will just flip it and pick up something more suitable to my needs. Thanks for the input.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 14, 2008, 12:09 AM
Post #8 of 32 (2301 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, I am not in hurry to learn to swoop. The only thing I feel is different is the dive recovery. Between my last canopy sabre2 170 and my now canopy Stil 150 I mean. Obviously it turns faster too... Flare alittle different , no problem landing it so far all standups a couple with no wind. Not seeing what all the fuss is about. Would I notice a big differance between the stiletto and the Katana?


piisfish

Jul 14, 2008, 12:17 AM
Post #9 of 32 (2296 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

if your profile is correct, whatever your "canopy flight gifts", in my opinion, you have no business under a Stiletto, whatever the size.

Call me a canopy nazi if you want, but Stiletto and 200 jumps = bad idea.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 14, 2008, 12:23 AM
Post #10 of 32 (2295 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh one other thing does anyone have any feelings on the Nitron???


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 14, 2008, 2:17 AM
Post #11 of 32 (2276 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Would I notice a big differance between the stiletto and the Katana?

Yup. The biggest difference you'd notice would probably be your femur sticking out of your leg.

If you wanted to jump a Katana then you would need to wait another 200 jumps minimum and then jump the 170. The Katana is the highest performance 9-cell (open nose) on the market. The larger sizes are meant for larger jumpers with a significantly high number of jumps then you.

All in all it doesn't matter, since you will obviously do what ever you want to do regardless of the solid advice you have received.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 14, 2008, 3:14 AM
Post #12 of 32 (2262 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Now I remember why I dont post on here. I was trying to get info... Not to rationalize flying something I have not right to be flying. I have NO INTEREST in flying a Katana right now. You obviously take me as moron with an ego problem.
All in all you are... ah fuc it whats the point.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 14, 2008, 3:22 AM
Post #13 of 32 (2257 views)
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Re: [piisfish] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Umm ok nazi? Well opinions are like as... or no is it asses are like hmmm.... I can never remember.


piisfish

Jul 14, 2008, 5:13 AM
Post #14 of 32 (2223 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Well if your profile is correct, 7 years in the sport, 240 something jumps, you should already know better.

If you have no interest in "high performance" landings, why get a high performance canopy anyways (besides "it was a good deal") ?

Happy landings.


Skydivesg  (D 10938)

Jul 14, 2008, 9:04 AM
Post #15 of 32 (2150 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I personally think both of those canopies are a bad choice for you. Whenever someone tells you something in this sport you need for them to explain in detail why they are saying what they are saying. And if they are the one trying to sell the canopy then it would be prudent to get an outside opinion.

The person who told you the Katana is better for you than the Stilleto really does not know what they are talking about.

The Katana is a fantastic canopy and I jump one. But it is not a forgiving canopy. One small mistake and you will pay for it physically. It is the most aggressive non xbraced canopy I have ever jumped and I have jumped most everything out there.

I know a lot of people don't put their real numbers in their profile but if by chance you did, then that says that you average fewer than forty jumps a year.

I can't believe that a DZ or your friends haven't said something to you about your canopy choice. Because at a 1.47 wing load even the Stiletto is too much canopy at this point. (assuming your jump #s are correct)

I know that if you ever catch up with the PD tour and give them these numbers and ask to demo a Katana or even the Stilleto they will very politely and professionally tell you no. And then they will explain in detail why they won't let you jump those canopies and then maybe offer to let you try the Sabre 2 at a much more conservative loading.

Now I don't know you and you don't know me but I certainly hope you will continue to seek out some unbiased input before you do anything. You are in our fraternity by default and as a fraternity brother I must tell you that most of my friends who made bad canopy progression choices are either setting off the buzzers when they travel or have long since been buried.

That last statement may seem harsh but the key to success in this sport is to survive to jump another day.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Jul 14, 2008, 9:40 AM
Post #16 of 32 (2113 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

> Oh one other thing does anyone have any feelings on the Nitron???

Nice canopy, a step above a Sabre2/Pilot/Safire2. One of the more stable canopies out there in brakes. Larger ones open quite softly; smaller ones open a bit more firmly.

At your stage I'd recommend something like a Pilot/Safire2 168. You'll learn a lot more on a canopy like that than on the smaller Stiletto.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 14, 2008, 5:35 PM
Post #17 of 32 (2017 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I have NO INTEREST in flying a Katana right now.

Then why did you ask in the way you did? You sound just like the hundreds of other jumpers who have been told "NO" by everyone at their DZ, but comes to the web to get the justification to get the canopy they know is unreasonably too high performance for them.

Get mad, but if making people mad helps keeps people off of canopies that can and will kill themselves and maybe even their friends, then its worth it.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Jul 14, 2008, 9:00 PM
Post #18 of 32 (1967 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Get mad, but if making people mad helps keeps people off of canopies that can and will kill themselves and maybe even their friends, then its worth it.
Amen brother Dave.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 14, 2008, 11:37 PM
Post #19 of 32 (1943 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I was curious, because I have never jumped canopies like the Katana. So the only thing I have to compair it to would be the Stiletto. So I ask would I notice a big differance between the two.

Now if you really think "making people mad" is going to keep someone from doing something stupid... Well I think you just sound like an ass. Do you talk to people that way in person? Or only when you have the safety of the computer? I would like to think you have more social skills than that. I think approaching the situation like an adult and drawing the proper conclusion before saying something that makes you sound like douche. And besides since when has making people mad make them listen.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 14, 2008, 11:45 PM
Post #20 of 32 (1939 views)
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Re: [billvon] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Cool thanks, I was just curious because I had one availible to me. Prob just go back to the Sabre2.
I like the post, facts and opinions with no attitude.


11.5secman  (A 39536)

Jul 15, 2008, 12:04 AM
Post #21 of 32 (1935 views)
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Re: [Skydivesg] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Well one thing I have learned from this is that the person I talked to about these canopies before was high or I drasticly misunderstood what they said. However this person is EXTREMLY conservative because they own a dropzone and don't want to see people get hurt when they can help control the envoirment. And when I get to the beach in couple weeks I will be clearing up the miscommunication. I am eager to learn to swoop, but not at risk of myself or others. I understand the whole not getting ahead of yourself blah blah blah.
And I will probably go back to Sabre2 anyway so rest at ease brother.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jul 15, 2008, 2:16 AM
Post #22 of 32 (1910 views)
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Re: [11.5secman] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Now if you really think "making people mad" is going to keep someone from doing something stupid... Well I think you just sound like an ass. Do you talk to people that way in person?

Depends on the situation and the person. I'll explain things like they have been explained before. For instance if you completed a search, which we can assume since its good internet usage, you would have seen some really good and in depth reviews of the Katana, how it flies, how it compares with various canopies, etc. So that step was covered.

I've flat out told people before that they were going to die. Other jumpers have even filled out fatality reports and handed it to jumpers. Believe what you wish, but you'll see what I'm talking about the longer you're in the sport. Which is really unfortunate.Unsure


rehmwa  (D 12816)

Jul 15, 2008, 11:52 AM
Post #23 of 32 (1842 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
A stiletto is a fine canopy. I've put a number of jumps on them over the years; however, if you are wanting to progress into jumping a modern swoop canopy it doesn't fit well into the progression.

The stiletto isn't a "modern swoop canopy". It's a "modern flying canopy". The Katana set up swoops nice, but is boring to fly.

I jump a loaded Stiletto (~1.75 to 1) and it's a great canopy for casual swoop/surfing and it's a very dynamic flyer. It also pulls out of a hook fast, so swooping is a matter of a lot of corrections and/or really good timing (IMO). So it's fun to fly, but not to land. Or at least, it's not really friendly to modern swoop expectations. I don't think it's meant to be. Now I get pretty fun swoops, but if I was going to learn to compete, this would not be my canopy of choice.

I tried the Katana in the same size recently and found it terribly boring in flight, sluggish, too steep, and not dynamic at all (relatively speaking). However, for swooping, I could just set the dive angle I wanted and it would stay there until I told it to level out for landing. So, it's fun to swoop, but not to fly.

I don't want to make that trade off, so I will pass on the Katana. But I'm not into swooping at the expense of the rest of the flight. A LOT of people are, though.

Key point - both are advanced canopies for someone who's dialed in a few hundred jumps on a semi-elliptical (like a Sabre2). But at high loading, one needs to decide what they want to do - swoop or fly around. You really can't have both, the design requirements conflict. You can prioritize one and the rationalize the other (likely responses to this post will see Katana people talking up their flight portion, and Stiletto people bragging on their swoops...Laugh)

I like the advice of Sabre2 for this OP - then in a few hundred jumps a Katana - then in even more jumps later whatever has come along from the Velocity or similar.....

I wouldn't put someone with 250 jumps under a stiletto or a katana for any money. They just aren't experienced enough, even with classes, to use either at a wing loading that would be value added to them. But the Sabre2 at a decent wing loading is perfect.


(This post was edited by rehmwa on Jul 15, 2008, 11:56 AM)


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Jul 15, 2008, 12:30 PM
Post #24 of 32 (1824 views)
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Re: [rehmwa] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The stiletto isn't a "modern swoop canopy". It's a "modern flying canopy". The Katana set up swoops nice, but is boring to fly.

In reply to:
I jump a loaded Stiletto (~1.75 to 1) and it's a great canopy for casual swoop/surfing and it's a very dynamic flyer.

In reply to:
I tried the Katana in the same size recently and found it terribly boring in flight, sluggish, too steep, and not dynamic at all (relatively speaking).

You want to try a Samurai with the regular line set (there's a longer line set for swooping). Apart from glide ratio at trim speed (you'll want rear riser input to get back from longer spots) it flies a lot like a Stiletto but has a modern recovery arc. It shuts down at a slower speed so that if you're so inclined you can jump a size smaller.

The Samurai 120 was the only canopy I jumped which I liked more than my Stiletto 120 (Katana was not yet released). I lost 25 pounds and bought a 105 to maintain the same wing loading.

The Samurai would be inappropriate for the original poster, with the manufacturer strictly forbidding its use by persons with under 300 jumps and requiring a full size larger than a less tapered planform at a given jump count.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Jul 15, 2008, 12:46 PM)


dragon2  (D 101989)

Jul 15, 2008, 12:37 PM
Post #25 of 32 (1816 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] stilleto vs katana [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the vengeance also falls in the "fun to fly PLUS fun to swoop" category, but I've never flown a katana so can't compare.


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