Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
High Performance Problems

 

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matttrudeau

Aug 10, 2001, 8:01 AM
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High Performance Problems Can't Post

Recently, at my home Dropzone a 33 year old women was seriously injured using a high performance canopy. She's still unconscious as you read this. My prayers are with her and her family. I've placed the link below to the newspaper article so you can read it for yourself. If you take a look at skydiving deaths, far too many people are dead or seriously injured because they have misjudged their landing using a high performance canopy. These deaths are inexcusable! I'm sick and tired of reading about landing fatalities.


http://198.181.156.134/news2001c/august/10/mn0810g.htm



(This post was edited by matttrudeau on Aug 10, 2001, 12:03 AM)


riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 10, 2001, 11:03 AM
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Most of the people who hook turn themselves into the hospital never planned to hook turn, they just arrived at low altitude without a plan!
The key to reducing landing injuries is curiousity and a long-term commitment to learning canopy skills. Many of the individual blocks of instruction have been perfected. I have drafted a chart connecting these blocks of instruction that SKYDIVING Magazine will publish some time this year.

Curiosity. Folks the key is curiosity!



Jimbo  (D License)

Aug 10, 2001, 4:11 PM
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In reply to:
Most of the people who hook turn themselves into the hospital never planned to hook turn, they just arrived at low altitude without a plan!
The key to reducing landing injuries is curiousity and a long-term commitment to learning canopy skills.
I've always thought that dropzones should offer some type of advanced canopy control school. Students go through AFF or SL and learn how to land a 280 sq/ft F111 square in ideal conditions, but that seems to be where most canopy skills training stops.

Anyone else think that's a problem or maybe a gap or missing piece in the training puzzle?



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 10, 2001, 4:27 PM
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"I've always thought that dropzones should offer some type of advanced canopy control school"

They are all over.....just keep an eye out at the bigger DZ's especially in Florida.

"I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-Everclear

Clay


FallinWoman  (C 32269)

Aug 10, 2001, 7:19 PM
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The schools may be out there to teach this stuff, but I think it should be more of a requirement.

I feel like I am getting a pretty good canopy control education still because I am a pain in the ass to the DZO who is always out watching people under canopy. I ask a million questions and if I don't like or understand the answers, I ask the question again to three other people.

I have had to take a very active/aggressive role to get canopy control lessons beyond the s/l progression.

Blue skies,
Anne



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 10, 2001, 7:26 PM
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"I am a pain in the ass"

Dont feel that way. Most of the time thats the best way to learn. You know what they say about dumb questions. I hope that the more experienced people around are as helpful as possible. They should be as it is their place to be a mentor to us lower time jumpers.

"I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-Everclear

Clay


FallinWoman  (C 32269)

Aug 10, 2001, 7:34 PM
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I know that sometimes I annoy people with all of my question. Especially since I sometime need the same question answered several times. I don't care if they think I am a pain in the ass. I will keep asking my questions. Most people are super patient with me most of the time, so I don't worry about the few times that I may have annoyed someone!!!





cloud9  (D 27635)

Aug 12, 2001, 3:06 PM
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There are many different classes, video's, books etc. on canopy control. The problem I see here is people think that it is owed to them. Sorry but no DZ owes us anything, except very basic canopy flilght ( such as no low turns ) how to land, etc. Its up to you to find a course, book video or coach if you want the advanced training. Of course you'll have to pay for it, but it is out there if you really want to learn. Until then just fly conservative. Remember if you get too advanced on first jump courses you'll loose a lot of people due to cost, and many DZ's just don't have the time, personel, or equipment to get into advanced training.

Blue skies



Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 12, 2001, 6:49 PM
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In reply to:
If you take a look at skydiving deaths, far too many people are dead or seriously injured because they have misjudged their landing using a high performance canopy. These deaths are inexcusable! I'm sick and tired of reading about landing fatalities.
Oh, great - here we go again.. Let me guess - you want to ban high performance canopies and low turns, right? Think of it this way.. People that don't skydive think that ANY skydiving fatality is inexcusable.. I mean - why would somebody jump out of an airplane and risk serious injury or death?! I guess we better ban skydiving..

People that choose to fly high performance canopies and do low turns know the risks.. If you don't want to see these types of maneuvers, go to a DZ that doesn't allow them..

I don't like to see injuries or fatalities - but it's a given in this sport.. Placing more restrictions on the sport is not the way to go.. Yes - I do 'low' front riser turns.. If I'm told I cannot do them at a specific DZ, I will go elsewhere.. I know the risks.. Don't try to tell me I can't do 'em..

Mike



PhillyKev

Aug 13, 2001, 4:57 AM
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In reply to:
Oh, great - here we go again.. Let me guess - you want to ban high performance canopies and low turns, right?
I don't think he was saying that at all. I'm guessing that what he find inexcusable is that people are non-chalant or careless about these maneuvers just because they've done them so many times. The point to remember is no matter how experienced you are, when approaching a "potentially" dangerous maneuver, remember that's what it is and treat it that way. Being cautious doesn't necessarily mean only flying conservatively, but being in control and concentrating on what you're doing. Granted I'm a newbie at skydiving but I used to skateboard on half pipes and it's the same principle. Just because you're experienced doesn't mean you can treat a dangerous maneuver as if it's no big deal without fate catching up with you.

Even though I don't perform those maneuvers, and currently don't have any desire to, I don't want them banned. Who knows, in the future I might want to try them, and until then, I enjoy watching the swoopers come in while I'm waiting for my next load. But I hope I never see anyone get injured doing it.

cielos azules y cerveza fra

-Kevin


matttrudeau

Aug 13, 2001, 6:31 AM
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I don't want a ban on high performance canopies. I just wanted to let people know that even experienced skydivers can be seriously injured when the proper precautions aren't taken. When used correctly, high performance canopies are a lot of fun. I just think that if she was on a slower canopy, this probably would have never happened.



RemiAndKaren  (C 2328)

Aug 13, 2001, 7:28 AM
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In reply to:
I just think that if she was on a slower canopy, this probably would have never happened.
First, I hope her situation is improving.

But lets not make too many assumptions here.. all we (at least I) can go by is a quote in the mainstream media saying "high performance" and " 90 degree turn". This is the same report that said 500 to 600 jumps makes an advanced jumper. I consider myself quite intermediate at 700.

This is way too little info to declare the cause of the incident. She may have been jumping a square which in the mind of the reporter, is a high performance canopy.

And lets be clear: you dont need a Stiletto (or insert you favorite swooping canopy here) loaded at 2.0 to hurt yourself bad with a low turn...

All that being said, good thoughs to the hurt jumper...

Remi



Geoff

Aug 13, 2001, 8:26 AM
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In reply to:
you dont need a Stiletto (or insert you favorite swooping canopy here) loaded at 2.0 to hurt yourself bad with a low turn...
You sure don't.... the only two skydivers I've known personally who've died jumping both died from low turns under non-HP canopies. One was a Fury 220 (really) and the other was a Sabre 150. Both jumpers were known as conservative jumpers and had a few hundred jumps.

Of course, really high performance and highly loaded canopies need huge amounts of respect, but virtually any ram-air canopy can descend fast enough in a turn to cause fatal impact.

Geoff





riggerrob  (D 14840)

Aug 13, 2001, 9:20 AM
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Fellow skydivers,
My original point was that the key to surviving under any canopy is curiousity (aka. continued canopy instruction.) And it has to be a series of phases of instruction.
First jump courses only cover the bare minimums of how to survive under a docile student canopy, because that is about all that a first jump student can absorb.
Sadly, the first jump course is where canopy instruction ends at most DZs.
As they progress to smaller and faster canopies, all skydivers need a series of blocks of instruction, with dozens of practice jumps at each block to understand all the corners of the performance envelope of any canopy.
A few DZs provide little bits of advice for free. Bless their souls.
Some smaller DZS simply may not have the experese to teach advanced canopy techniques. For example, if the chief instructor still does low altitude toggle hook turns, ignore most of his advice about high speed landings.
The bigger more progressive DZs provide formal blocks of instruction (ie. Skydive University's "Basic Canopy Flight 101) but charge for the coach's time. BCF provides valuable advice, but some skydivers are too arrogant or cheap to pay coaches.

In a capitalist economy, DZS cannot force lazy skydivers to learn anything. Skydivers who are not willing to pay for formal coaching can always read the textbooks, watch the videos and practice the canopy exercises on their own.

In the end, the length of your skydiving carreer is directly proportional to how curious you are about your canopy.

The key word here is CURIOUS!



Premier billvon  (D 16479)
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Aug 13, 2001, 1:31 PM
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Re: High Performance Problems [In reply to] Can't Post

>I don't want a ban on high performance canopies. I just wanted to let people know that even experienced skydivers can be seriously injured when the proper precautions aren't taken. When used correctly, high performance canopies are a lot of fun. I just think that if she was on a slower canopy, this probably would have never happened.

Any canopy can kill you if you don't know how to fly it. I am safer on my Safire 129 than a friend of mine on her Sabre 170, for example. It's not that the Safire is a better or more stable canopy, and it's not that our approaches are any different (we both fly straight in.) It's that she does not know how to avoid someone who cuts her off at 50 feet, because she's never practiced it. Both of our canopies have the flare/turn/stopping power to turn safely at 50 feet, but it needs to be practiced before it can be used to save your life.

So I have to disagree. Unless you plan to put her under a 30' round parachute, she could be every bit as dangerous under a Sabre 170 as a Sabre 150. Square footage is in no way a safe substitute for training and competence when it comes to landing a ram air parachute.

-bill von


apoil  (D License)

Aug 15, 2001, 10:21 PM
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> "I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-Everclear

You know, as annoying as it is to read that at the end of every single one of your posts, you could at the very least spell it correctly.






freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 16, 2001, 12:57 PM
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"You know, as annoying as it is to read that at the end of every single one of your posts, you could at the very least spell it correctly."

Cool....I annoyed someone and thanks for the entertainment as well as pointing out my error.






"I used to know a girl...She had two pirced nipples and a black tattoo"-Everclear

Clay


freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 16, 2001, 1:01 PM
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Re: High Performance Problems [In reply to] Can't Post

Look...I fixed it!!! I fixed it!!!!

"I used to know a girl...She had two pierced nipples and a black tattoo"-Everclear

Clay


BPO  (D 87411)

Aug 16, 2001, 11:37 PM
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*GRIN* naaah.. liked it better the old way... Smile



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 17, 2001, 7:42 AM
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Look.....I have a new one!

"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard

Clay


Iflyme  (B 4421)

Aug 18, 2001, 12:57 AM
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In reply to:
I don't like to see injuries or fatalities - but it's a given in this sport
Mike, the notion that "fatalities are an acceptable part of this sport" is the root of the problem. It's a terrible thing when someone dies because of an equipment malfunction, but I find it much more distressing when someone dies under a fully functional canopy.. It is NOT ok that some people die doing intentional low turns. It is NOT ok that some people die doing unintentional low turns. Now I don't endorse overwhelming regulation, but perhaps our sport needs some self-appointed higher standards when it comes to training. If it would save lives, and reduce the number of people seriously injured, then how can that be a bad thing??? Ask the loved ones the deceased left behind how they feel. Sometimes you have to give up a tiny bit of freedom to reduce the potential for disaster. Maybe if being a student skydiver meant being subject to more than a brief lecture on canopy control, fewer people would die under good canopies. I certainly would support a study into how our sport can reduce the number of fatalities. (For those of you who think your "freedom to do whatever the hell you think you should be able to do" is more important than implementing measures to save lives, I've got my flame-proof underwear on!)

That's my 2 cents for the evening...



spectre230
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Aug 18, 2001, 2:49 AM
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Iflyme  (B 4421)

Aug 18, 2001, 7:11 AM
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In reply to:
Frank,I Agree 100% with you on that post.
Huh? Wait a sec ... did I read that right, Chris? We are on the same side of an issue????? Whoa! I told ya we could agree on something Cool



freeflir29  (D 10000000)

Aug 18, 2001, 3:18 PM
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"For those of you who think your "freedom to do whatever the hell you think you should be able to do" is more important than implementing measures to save lives, I've got my flame-proof underwear on!)"

That'd be me. There is no shortage of canopy control courses out there. If you want to pay for them. The slower and less intelligent get weeded out of this sport quickly. If you can't handle the sport go home! If your depth perception and or canopy control skills suck dont whine to me that there should have been a "Rule" to keep you from killing/maiming yourself. I, the DZ, nor anyone else is responsible for an "Up jumper's" safety during canopy flight. DZ's should provide safe aircraft and a relatively safe landing area free of OBVIOUS dangers. Jumpers make their own fate! I'm not responsible for stupid people!

P.S. I bet you voted for Clinton!



"I've got pieces of corn in my crap bigger than him" -Fat Bastard

Clay


Aviatrr  (D 27349)

Aug 18, 2001, 6:45 PM
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In reply to:
Mike, the notion that "fatalities are an acceptable part of this sport" is the root of the problem. It's a terrible thing when someone dies because of an equipment malfunction, but I find it much more distressing when someone dies under a fully functional canopy.. It is NOT ok that some people die doing intentional low turns. It is NOT ok that some people die doing unintentional low turns. Now I don't endorse overwhelming regulation, but perhaps our sport needs some self-appointed higher standards when it comes to training.
Show me exactly where I stated that I oppose better training.. You won't.. It's a terrible thing when somebody dies, PERIOD.. No matter how you slice it, deaths and injuries are a given in an extreme sport such as skydiving..

In reply to:
If it would save lives, and reduce the number of people seriously injured, then how can that be a bad thing??? Ask the loved ones the deceased left behind how they feel. Sometimes you have to give up a tiny bit of freedom to reduce the potential for disaster.
Ok, Frank - let's take it one step further.. People that don't skydiving feel that it's unacceptable to lose ONE SINGLE LIFE from something as stupid as skydiving.. Let's ban skydiving for the sake of those people.. After all, sometimes you have to give up a tiny bit of freedom to reduce the potential for disaster....right, Frank?

In reply to:
Maybe if being a student skydiver meant being subject to more than a brief lecture on canopy control, fewer people would die under good canopies. I certainly would support a study into how our sport can reduce the number of fatalities.
Trust me - I am the last person that would oppose better training.. When I started jumping, I pursued canopy control training from some of the local skygods.. It helped me an incredible amount, and made me a MUCH safer canopy pilot.. It saved my ass a couple of times.. When I get my new Crossfire(which will be the first elliptical I have ever owned), I am going to take some canopy control classes from Scott Miller at Deland.. I want to learn to do anything with that canopy - from long distance swoops to sinking accuracy type approaches.. Scott knows a hell of a lot more about canopy flight than I do - especially on ellipticals - so I'll take advantage of that knowledge.. As Clay stated, there are many canopy control schools out there.....why don't people that aren't comfortable/competent under canopy take the initiative to pursue them?

I am 100% for better canopy control training.. I don't like picking up bodies.. Today was the third time that I have had to help pick up broken bodies after canopy accidents.. This one was a low panic turn during a tight out landing.. Luckily, he is expected to survive..

Mike



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