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A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"?

 

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Sttucker13  (A License)

May 5, 2008, 8:37 PM
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A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? Can't Post

After a discussion this last weekend with some skydivers at the dropzone, there was some confusion as to what is currently recognized as a "skydive" in the SIM, in regards to licensing requirements. Proficiency cards aside, the A-license states that "25 jumps" are required to become licensed. Does that mean 25 self-deployed jumps? Or is it implied that IAD and working tandems are counted as well?

If, for instance, a student progresses through the IAD program and completes their yellow card in 30 jumps - but 10 of those were instructor deployed openings off the strut - is he qualified to receive his A with only 20 self-deployed dives?

Thanks in advance!


ltdiver  (D 20506)

May 5, 2008, 8:41 PM
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Re: [Sttucker13] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
Skydives amount to Freefalls. Tandems count. Clear and Pulls count. Static lines do not. Since IAD's are like S/L I'm inclined to classify them as 'not'.

ltdiver


(This post was edited by ltdiver on May 5, 2008, 8:42 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 8:43 PM
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Re: [Sttucker13] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Any type of aircraft exit counts as a skydive in regards to the USPA 25 jump requirement. It doesn't matter if it's S/L, IAD, Tandem, etc and it doesn't matter who deployed.

They just don't help much with the other proficiency card requirements in some cases.


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 8:45 PM
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Clear and Pulls count. Static lines do not.

Wow, well.... that's a lot different than what I've been taught.


Sttucker13  (A License)

May 5, 2008, 8:51 PM
Post #5 of 73 (2776 views)
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Re: [labrys] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Aaaaand, the same debate we had at the DZ seems to extend to here as well. It would be nice if there was some official clarification to be found in the SIM...


ltdiver  (D 20506)

May 5, 2008, 8:56 PM
Post #6 of 73 (2766 views)
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Re: [labrys] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Clear and Pulls count. Static lines do not.

Wow, well.... that's a lot different than what I've been taught.

SIM: 3.1-C Pay particular attention to C-5. Must include freefall time. S/L and IAD do not include freefall time. Clear and Pulls do...at least 1 second. :^)

ltdiver


yamtx73  (B 29458)

May 5, 2008, 8:57 PM
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

If static line jumps don't count then why are they used as a training means?

Because... they DO count, I was always told that any jump counts.


pilotdave  (D License)

May 5, 2008, 8:58 PM
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Re: [Sttucker13] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

How about the glossary in the SIM?

SKYDIVE: 1. n. The descent of a person to the surface from an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a parachute during all or part of that descent. 2. v. To jump form an aircraft with a parachute.

I've never heard of IAD/SL jumps not counting. Don't see why tandems would count (where the instructor does ALL the work) and IAD/SL wouldn't (where the student does EVERYTHING other than pull).

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on May 5, 2008, 9:01 PM)


pilotdave  (D License)

May 5, 2008, 8:59 PM
Post #9 of 73 (2760 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Doesn't say freefall time can't be zero. Just has to be logged.

Dave


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 9:02 PM
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Re: [Sttucker13] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well... I'm sticking with what the SIM does say. It says you must complete 25 jumps. It doesn't say you have to complete 25 self deployments or 25 freefalls. It says you have to complete 25 jumps.

My home DZ is owned by a USPA national director and she counts any exit as a skydive. Maybe she's wrong Crazy


yamtx73  (B 29458)

May 5, 2008, 9:03 PM
Post #11 of 73 (2752 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking the same thing.. yes, you have to log freefall time, but nothing there says it has to be a minimum amount of freefall time for the jump to count. Although I do believe there's a minimum amount of freefall time required for an A license, but I could be mistaken on that point.


Sttucker13  (A License)

May 5, 2008, 9:05 PM
Post #12 of 73 (2749 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well just glancing over that section I take away that the particular reference to "freefall length (time)" is an indication that the skydiver should be recording that information when it is available, and not as an indication of necessity. But that's just what I'm getting out of it.

Thanks for the attention to this, gracias.


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 9:06 PM
Post #13 of 73 (2747 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

That section requires that you log freefall time. It doesn't say anything about how long it needs to be or whether there has to be any freefall at all. Just that it be logged.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

May 5, 2008, 9:06 PM
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Re: [pilotdave] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Doesn't say freefall time can't be zero. Just has to be logged.

Dave

Okay, I just went back to my very first log book. My instructor interpreted there exactly what I posted above. "Skydive equals Freefall". He did not count the S/L jumps toward my A license since it was not freefall time.

Perhaps the interpretation has changed since then (1996). Alot has changed. Yet, the SIM continues to say 'freefalls' and not 'exits from a plane'. Smile

ltdiver


pilotdave  (D License)

May 5, 2008, 9:08 PM
Post #15 of 73 (2741 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Yet, the SIM continues to say 'freefalls' and not 'exits from a plane'.

Where? The license requirements just say "jumps."

How would it make sense that a student could sit through a 4-hour IAD FJC, go up, jump out of a plane, land the canopy all alone, and not be able to log the jump? And yet a student could get a 5-minute briefing, watch a waiver video, and flail in freefall while the instructor keeps the student stable, and then the instructor lands with no assistance from the student, and that would be a loggable jump just because there was freefall (drogue fall...) involved? Just doesn't make sense...

Dave


(This post was edited by pilotdave on May 5, 2008, 9:12 PM)


Sttucker13  (A License)

May 5, 2008, 9:09 PM
Post #16 of 73 (2739 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

 Yet, the SIM continues to say 'freefalls' and not 'exits from a plane'. Smile

ltdiver
Where? Thats the section I can't seem to find myself. I just keep seeing the words "25 Jumps"...


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 9:11 PM
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Re: [yamtx73] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Although I do believe there's a minimum amount of freefall time required for an A license, but I could be mistaken on that point.

Nope. The B license has a freefall time requirement (30 minutes). The A does not. The A does require at least 5 freefall group jumps of 2 or more, but it doesn't specify that all 25 jumps must include freefall.


ltdiver  (D 20506)

May 5, 2008, 9:13 PM
Post #18 of 73 (2731 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Don't see why tandems would count (where the instructor does ALL the work)

See Under USPA Licenses SIM 3.B-5 "Total freefall time is defined to include both freefall and droguefall time." Smile

ltdiver


Sttucker13  (A License)

May 5, 2008, 9:16 PM
Post #19 of 73 (2726 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:

Don't see why tandems would count (where the instructor does ALL the work)

See Under USPA Licenses SIM 3.B-5 "Total freefall time is defined to include both freefall and droguefall time." Smile

ltdiver

... I think that's just so that tandem pilots don't have to differentiate between the 5 seconds without a drogue and the 15 seconds with one... and, respectfully, I'm not sure that you're getting what he's trying to say. He's implying that it would be odd for a tandem to count as a skydive towards the 25 required jumps, when an IAD (and the subsequent canopy and landing skills the student is learning on his own) would not.


yamtx73  (B 29458)

May 5, 2008, 9:18 PM
Post #20 of 73 (2722 views)
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Re: [ltdiver] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

From the SIM, Section 3.1 E:
Quote:
A License

1. Persons holding a USPA A license may jump without supervision, pack their own main parachute, engage in basic group jumps, perform water jumps, and must have-

a. completed 25 jumps

b. completed all requirements listed on the USPA A License Proficiency Card

c. completed five group freefall skydives involving at least two participants

d. received the signature and official stamp on the USPA A License Proficiency Card or USPA A License Progression Card (ISP)

Note that it states jumps, no reference to freefall.


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 9:20 PM
Post #21 of 73 (2719 views)
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Re: [pilotdave] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
SKYDIVE: 1. n. The descent of a person to the surface from an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a parachute during all or part of that descent. 2. v. To jump form an aircraft with a parachute.

There's a great point. Note that they define the use of a parachute during all or part of a descent as a skydive. Pretty tough to get freefall if all of your skydive is under canopy.

I agree with what others have said. The SIM days nothing about freefall defining a skydive and the A license requirement says 25 jumps, not 25 freefalls.

But hey, once you have 2500 does any of that really matter? Tongue


yamtx73  (B 29458)

May 5, 2008, 9:22 PM
Post #22 of 73 (2716 views)
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Re: [labrys] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
SKYDIVE: 1. n. The descent of a person to the surface from an aircraft in flight when he or she uses or intends to use a parachute during all or part of that descent. 2. v. To jump form an aircraft with a parachute.

There's a great point. Note that they define the use of a parachute during all or part of a descent as a skydive. Pretty tough to get freefall if all of your skydive is under canopy.

I agree with what others have said. The SIM days nothing about freefall defining a skydive and the A license requirement says 25 jumps, not 25 freefalls.

But hey, once you have 2500 does any of that really matter? Tongue

Once you have 2500 it does matter if you're an instructor.


labrys  (D 29848)

May 5, 2008, 9:27 PM
Post #23 of 73 (2710 views)
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Re: [yamtx73] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Once you have 2500 it does matter if you're an instructor.

Please explain why it matters.

When I jump with a student, I sign their log book and make any comments I think will be helpful. What does that have do with whether or not the jump counts towards a license jump number requirement?

I note whether or not they've met a proficiency requirement. Am I missing something here? Wink


ltdiver  (D 20506)

May 5, 2008, 9:30 PM
Post #24 of 73 (2705 views)
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Re: [Sttucker13] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
... I think that's just so that tandem pilots don't have to differentiate between the 5 seconds without a drogue and the 15 seconds with one... and, respectfully, I'm not sure that you're getting what he's trying to say. He's implying that it would be odd for a tandem to count as a skydive towards the 25 required jumps, when an IAD (and the subsequent canopy and landing skills the student is learning on his own) would not.

Yes, I do 'get' the irony.

ltdiver


yamtx73  (B 29458)

May 5, 2008, 9:32 PM
Post #25 of 73 (2702 views)
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Re: [labrys] A-License requirements -- What is considered a "Skydive"? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Once you have 2500 it does matter if you're an instructor.

Please explain why it matters.

When I jump with a student, I sign their log book and make any comments I think will be helpful. What does that have do with whether or not the jump counts towards a license jump number requirement?

I note whether or not they've met a proficiency requirement. Am I missing something here? Wink

Maybe it's just me but I feel that an instructor SHOULD know what is required, not only for the proficiency card, but the BSR's and what a student needs to become a skydiver... including requirements for an A license.


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