Apr 1, 2008, 9:55 PM
Post #1 of 22
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"Student Status"
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Fellow instructors,
OK, I recognize that I may be going off on a rant here and may not recognize the historical significance of the phrase, but it seems to me that we, as instructors, need to stop using the term "cleared off student status".
By my reading of the SIM and IRM, it is pretty clear that skydivers can be broken into two clear groups - students and licensed skydivers. If a skydiver is not a licensed skydiver, then they are a student, regardless of what AFF level they have completed or whether they have been "cleared for solo jumps" or "cleared for self-supervision". A student is a student.
Why am I ranting about this? Again, my reading of the SIM and IRM are pretty clear that students are only authorized to jump with instructors, coaches or appropriately authorized D license holders. Too often, I have seen skydivers "cleared off student status" getting virtually no supervision in their preparation, dive planning, or organization. Consequently they are not learning the basic freefall or canopy control skills we, and the SIM, expect them to learn. Additionally, I have seen students participating in group skydives with skydivers who do not hold instructional ratings and are not authorized to jump with students.
In each of these cases, I have discussed the issue with the DZO, and it has been resolved. However, I think that the term "cleared off student status" is a contributing factor to this problem.
As a student pilot and skydiver, it was pretty clear to me that until I had that certificate in hand, I was not a full-up pilot/skydiver. Where are we losing this?
Now, you (and I) may agree or disagree with the SIM/IRM requirements, but they are pretty clear.
I may not have stated my argument very clearly, but in the end, a student is a student, is a student.
though I am not an instructor, I agree. I get confused when i hear someone say they are off student status, then find out they only have 13 jumps or so. I have 300+ jumps, and I am still a student, but that is a different interpretation, and not the one you are going for*
I'm with you there, I have 300+, am an instructor and still consider myself a student. I take every opportunity for canopy control courses, freefall/RW coaching, camera flying coaching and freeflying coaching.
I agree with your interpretation, and agree that we shouldn't use the phrase "Cleared off student status." A student IS a student, and the phrase does add confusion. Plus, it devalues the acquisition of a license.
slotperfect (D 13014)
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Apr 2, 2008, 3:51 AM
Post #5 of 22
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I changed my verbage a long time ago when I got "plugged in" to the ISP. I now say "cleared for self-supervision." Our students are very clear that they are students until they are granted a license. We uphold the value of getting licensed . . . our very own TonyT officiates a very formal A license ceremony. We sing a hymn and everything.
At my DZ we never say anything like cleared off student status, never have. Until you get up in the B or C range your hard pressed to find anyone who considers themselves off student status. When I see people doing things I know I can't do very well, I take on the student mantle. Don't confuse us, we're all students. Thats what makes skydiving so great, you never stop learning.
It seems to me, that saying "your cleared off student status" is just an excuse to stop spending your time with new jumpers.
I say "graduated AFF" and similar things and agree it could use improvement. The confusion you're seeing is likely the result of an old dogs/new tricks thing. I'm pretty sure that when I started instructing, graduating S/L or AFF did in fact mean one had graduated from student status to "novice status". The lingo has since been changed to remove that intermediate phrase, but not everyone has caught up. I do make it clear to my students that they are still students until they get their A-license, and I'm adamant that they not jump with non rating holders (or individuals with a proper waiver), but I haven't come up with a comfortable catch-phrase for the period between I-required jumps and A-licensed jumps.
I do make it clear to my students that they are still students until they get their A-license, and I'm adamant that they not jump with non rating holders (or individuals with a proper waiver), but I haven't come up with a comfortable catch-phrase for the period between I-required jumps and A-licensed jumps.
Before the USPA screwed everything up it was pretty simple. And I still think of it this way . . .
Getting signed off student status means you are cleared for self supervision. It means you can board the plane without a jumpmaster in tow. From that point on until you are licensed you are called a novice.
Quit trying to re-invent the wheel, you guys . . .
Getting signed off student status means you are cleared for self supervision. It means you can board the plane without a jumpmaster in tow. From that point on until you are licensed you are called a novice.
Quit trying to re-invent the wheel, you guys . . .
Apparently the wheel has already been reinvented. Like you, I don't know what the problem was with the term "novice".
The latest Parachutist would suggest that there are three stages. In the pie chart on fatalities, there are "students", "novices" and then license holders.
My interpretation of the BSRs in the USPA SIM is that no wavier is required for D licensed jumpers to jump with unlicensed jumpers who have been cleared to self-supervise:
SIM 2-1, E, 6. Students training for group freefall
a. Student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by either A USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor or;
b. USPA D license holders provided there is a minimum ratio of one D license holder to one student with a maximum of a 4-way.
I don't think that this is as much of an issue with Static Line/IAD students/DZs. I'm still old school to the point that until you're "A qualified" you're a student, and will be supervised and jumping with a Coach, or once in a while a D license holder.
With the SL/IAD progression, few students have completed their A Card in the required 25 jumps, so just as well be accomplishing objectives and learning as opposed to simply jumping out of an airplane and living to do it again IMO.
I don't honestly know that our students generally even know that there's such a thing as "A qualified" which to me means that they've done everything , save send USPA their paperwork and money.
I had one student who lives here, go to Florida and do his AFF, then make some 10 "self supervision jumps". He came back home, and got with us to complete his student progression, I asked to see his A license card and as I remember he either didn't have one, or it was blank other than his name at the top. He spent in Florida what it would have cost him to complete the whole progression with us, and had to do 15 or so Coach jumps to complete his card/license.
IMO "cleared to self supervision" seems to be a way to let students jump when short on instructional staff to work with them.
I make it clear to students that once they've graduated AFF, they are still students, that they need a minimum of 25 jumps, and so forth, before they can become A licensed skydivers. I explain to them clearly when they begin the program and again when they graduate AFF that they are only permitted to jump with the appropriately rated or licensed skydivers.
The AFF instructors at the DZ also make it clear that the AFF program is only the first in a series of student jumps during which the student learns to become a licensed skydiver, at which time they will be permitted to jump with other licensed skydivers.
I make sure students understand these things, and let them know that if I catch them up to shennanigans, I will not deal kindly with them.
Call it harsh, but I think that while we want to encourage and support our student's endeavors towards becoming licensed skydivers, (and I hope and believe that I do), we've also an obligation to recognize their inexperience and lack of knowledge, and deal with them appropriately. This means keeping them safe, and being so clear as to not let them screw up, where we can prevent it.
By the same token, I hope that skydivers more experienced than me would do the same for me. Just part of the learning process.
I agree the term is misleading and so is cleared to self supervise. I like to use cleared to self jumpmaster, meaning they are cleared from direct instructor supervision and may jump solo or with a coach. This does not remove the instructors’ involvement with the student, as stated earlier on this thread; there is the coach when teaching group free fall skills may do so under instructor supervision. I would assume it could be said the instructor is still supervising the student but indirectly though the coach.
