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NEW tandem masters

 

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milehighpres  (D 29307)

Apr 30, 2008, 4:52 PM
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NEW tandem masters Can't Post

mainly for everyone with a tandem rating.. i recently took the course and this past saturday took my first paying customer.

student was about the same size as myself he kicked(like riding a bike) the whole ride. i flew as stable as possible by getting big and flying myself. everything else went perfect, landing was awesome(i was suprised myself)

just one of my questions is..

what are some tips of tricks that seasoned tandem masters use/do to help them along the jump.
like tips they dont cover in the class that help you on your jump


kj126  (D 28079)

Apr 30, 2008, 4:57 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

So give us a bit more on what your looking for.
Are you speaking of how to better control the students.
Or just general items?


milehighpres  (D 29307)

Apr 30, 2008, 5:38 PM
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Re: [kj126] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

a little of both please. how you would you control a student(leg sweep) or just fly it out.

and other general tips.



(sorry for no clarification, wrote it on the fly)


AggieDave  (D License)

Apr 30, 2008, 5:49 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
a little of both please. how you would you control a student(leg sweep) or just fly it out

I'll give it a couple of leg traps with my ankles trying to assist my student into a proper leg position. If they don't respond, then I just fly it out. That goes with a large majority of student body position problems.


Rover  (D 241)

Apr 30, 2008, 5:51 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Panic slowly!!


kj126  (D 28079)

Apr 30, 2008, 5:59 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

So the easiest way for you to be in control is to have your student in control. Now I'm not sure of your ground prep, but it should include the student actually going through the arch motions, if you simply tell them(it will not work), they just jumped from a plane and forgot it, Just as we teach, muscle memory is the key. Have them go through the arch until they get it.
Side connections: There are a set on the rig and the student harness, make sure they are snug, if either are loose they will flip and flop under you until pull time, and it's just a constant battle.
Everything up until jump time and including under canopy can be discussed, its the free fall when you need them to respond without speaking, I use 3 methods for legs: teaching them the AFF signal for legs up(usually not alot of repsonse) , next is the thigh tap, telling them if they feel me hitting them in the thigh to get the legs between and on the butt, and lastly is just taking over and hooking them with yours.
Arms are not so difficult unless you make it, if the students arms are extended and turning you, normally people will go for the wrist to pull them back, your fighting all their strength, Place yours at the students elbows like your trying to place them under arrest, you have alot more leverage.

Hope this will help a little and I'm sure some others have found others techniques that can give you a helping hand, and by the way it will get worse before it gets better., HA--- enjoy.


steveorino  (D 26782)

Apr 30, 2008, 6:10 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

First, I can't imagine being a TI at 350 jumps. but hey I guess you're special. Wink

I out fly my bad students and wear FF pants that give my legs more surface. I seldom waste time trying to correct a flailng student, but I do weight 230 #s

I do tell them to try and touch the back of their head with their heels. That simulates an arch and is easier to remember than arch, head up, legs up.


(This post was edited by steveorino on Apr 30, 2008, 6:12 PM)


tsalnukt

Apr 30, 2008, 6:43 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Fly, Fly, Fly...that's all you have to do. the more tandems you do, the more you understand. The best things anyone told me is...Fly, with lot's of legs, like you are tracking, and make sure the hip connectors are tight. train 'em good, but briefly, on the ground and make them as relaxed and comfortable as possible. If they are a total flailler then you either hook the legs or just fly it. You can still fly with your legs and hook their legs at the same time.
legs legs legs

Altitude awareness.........

Opening at the right altitude is more important than opening at the right altitude with stability


bclark  (D 22626)

Apr 30, 2008, 6:52 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Focus on good exits. Your odds of surviving a tandem go way up once you get a good drogue. Avoid "novelty exits" until you have a solid grasp on what is going on. (I still avoid them as a rule.) Train your students properly on the ground, focus on learnng how to properly harness a wide variety of students. Attention to these areas will help you avoid alot of those freefall problems. When all else fails, OUTFLY your student. Keep it simple. Remember most tandems come down to a few basic steps. Exit cleanly, deploy the drogue, release the drogue, evaluate deployment and take corrective measures as needed, FLARE. Learn how to fly the canopy. If you are letting your students help you land do LOTS of practice landings up high. (until you are confident in their ability to help you. If in doubt land them yourself.) Know your equipment, stay current on emergency procedures, have a hard deck and stick to it. These are the things I have found most important in 4500 uneventful tandem jumps. Oh yeah, don't forget to keep having fun.
Tandems are as fun as you make them. Even if they get repetitive, keep it fun for your students and teach them something. This is where you will find continuing satisfaction.

Hope this helps. Have fun!


milehighpres  (D 29307)

Apr 30, 2008, 7:22 PM
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Re: [bclark] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

haha.. yes... also.. havent updated my profile.. wow i am almost 3 for 3 this evening


Rover  (D 241)

May 1, 2008, 3:25 AM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
haha.. yes... also.. havent updated my profile.. wow i am almost 3 for 3 this evening

Congrats on your rating and I am serious with my 'panic slowly' advice.

But also 'wow' that you can get a tandem rating in the States at 500 jumps. Keep safe and panic slowly.


peek  (D 8884)

May 1, 2008, 4:35 AM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
... he kicked(like riding a bike) the whole ride.

The short answer- training.

People bicycle or swim because they are scared or nervous. Spend as much time as you can with your students so that they are comfortable with _you_ and the idea of skydiving.

I notice you use the word "ride". It is a "student jump". Do what you would do with any student. (Hopefully you will get support from the DZ, but some don't care.)


pchapman  (D 1014)

May 1, 2008, 5:40 AM
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Re: [tsalnukt] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Fly, Fly, Fly...that's all you have to do.

Agreed. Try to fly first, adjust the student second. I've seen newbie instructors grappling the student and spinning or taking rather long to get to the drogue out, when they could have flown the tandem pair first.

In skydiving in general, subtle movements are often required, to avoid overcontrolling and flailing, and to fine maneuver next to others.

But in tandems, with all that mass to move, subtlety is often not required!

Contort your body, stab out with the arms in an exaggerated way to grab air, kick a leg way out, whatever. There's a lot more control power available than some think they have. Use it all.

And don't be in a huge hurry for the drogue toss. I've seen enough poor ones, with the instructor still somewhat on their side, or pitching rapidly. Wait until you know you are stable belly-to-the-wind, not just when you are coming up to belly-to-wind but still with a lot of rapid pitching motion.


(This post was edited by pchapman on May 1, 2008, 5:41 AM)


AdD  (D License)

May 1, 2008, 3:29 PM
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Re: [pchapman] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with Peter 100%. Don't fly the student ! Of course I am pretty tall, I don't know how short Tm's deal with tall passengers.


diablopilot  (D License)

May 1, 2008, 9:41 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

You've received some great advice in this thread, and I can't say much more, but this: Try to always think of yourself as a Tandem INSTRUCTOR (not master) and always refer to them as STUDENTS (not passengers) and you'll keep the right mindset about this.

Oh and remember to always have fun!SmileWelcome!


skydiverton2  (D License)

May 1, 2008, 10:53 PM
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Re: [AdD] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I agree with Peter 100%. Don't fly the student ! Of course I am pretty tall, I don't know how short Tm's deal with tall passengers.

Fly yourself, only correct the passenger when required. DO NOT rely on the passenger to make the tandem jump safe. When in doubt, do not take the passenger. Better safe than sorry

The DZ I jump has a 90kg 1,90meter rule. Overweight and overstretched passengers can jump after approval of a TM (We are free to refuse) As I'm not that large, we agreed that i do not get passengers just exceeding this length, but I'm ok with heavier passengers in case they are rather fit (110kg from the gym is different than 110kg mc-donalds)

Amount of training is also always point of discussion, I've seen a couple of TM overtraining their passenger/student. Do not tell how rig works, this is not required before the jump. If they really want to know you can tell after the jump. Stick with, jump sequence, exit, body position and perhaps landing. No topics that are not relevant.

Never ever allow a first time student to assist in landing, if you do so it's only a matter of time before you (and/or the student) will end in hospital!!!

Remark: for a new TM please be aware that the small skinny ones cause the biggest problems. This can not be told often enough.

HAVE FUN, TRY TO FLY RELAXEDSmile


(This post was edited by skydiverton2 on May 1, 2008, 11:05 PM)


BillSchram  (D 24969)

May 2, 2008, 5:45 AM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

4 arms, 4 legs, 5 handles (Strong rigs) and a pilot chute in tow, what can possibly go wrong. The best advice I have gotten was to "Just hang from the drogue and relax" good luck and have fun with the new rating.


NickDG  (D 8904)

May 2, 2008, 7:02 AM
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Re: [BillSchram] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting to see how differently we all think of Tandems . . .

Ted Strong originally envisioned Tandem as the dual instruction that would do away with all other forms of student instruction.

DZOs saw it was a cash cow and it turned into the ride it generally is today.

For my part, when Tandem first came out I thought this is great! Now handicapped folks and my grandmother can at least make one skydive. I never thought it would become anything more than that.

And when I first started doing them I couldn't help but think, "Gee, the rig on my back is trying to kill me, the kid on the front is trying to kill me, and I'm giving myself an intentional pilot chute in tow. And then I don't do anything about it for 45 seconds or so. Overall, I felt like the meat in a death sandwich.

But like anything else you get more comfortable with it after a while, but the real question is probably - how has Tandem affected the sport overall? I would think those who came to the sport after Tandem began, or made their first jump via Tandem, see it as the normal way of things. But if you pre-date tandem, then some of you, not all, may say it hasn't been the best thing.

Personally I know without Tandem we'd never have had the switch to turbine aircraft across the board that we did. But on the other hand I think some first jump tandems, who might have pursued skydiving, leave the DZ with the feeling, "Well, I've done that, nothing more to do here."

I suppose only the future will say if we shot ourselves in the foot or if Tandem saved us . . .

NickD Smile


peek  (D 8884)

May 2, 2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: [skydiverton2] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Never ever allow a first time student to assist in landing, ...

So don't you think there is a way to train your student to land safely while learning canopy control under your supervision?

Other students manage to learn these things, and they are all alone landing their parachute.


bclark  (D 22626)

May 2, 2008, 1:05 PM
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Re: [peek] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

Last 4000 tandems I have done my student has toggles on landing. You DO need to learn to do this correctly, but it CAN be done. It is DZ policy to give the students toggles, unless you cannot get them to perform satisfactorily. We believe in teaching our students, not giving rides.


Rover  (D 241)

May 2, 2008, 1:20 PM
Post #21 of 72 (3473 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You've received some great advice in this thread, and I can't say much more, but this: Try to always think of yourself as a Tandem INSTRUCTOR (not master) and always refer to them as STUDENTS (not passengers) and you'll keep the right mindset about this.

Oh and remember to always have fun!SmileWelcome!

Unless you work in a tandem factory like NZ where the turbines keep rolling and the machine needs to be fed. Tandems have gone from 'training' to 'amusement ride'. Don't let time get in the way of production.


Para5-0  (D 19054)

May 2, 2008, 7:55 PM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

All good advice no dought but I am going to give you the best advice here: Buy your T I/E a bottle of Kettle 1 and a extra large jar of Olives. From there everything else will fall into place. Oh yeah, that is after the case of beer for 1st student, and the two other cases for, well You Know.....Enjoy see you when the sun decides to shine again.


skydiverton2  (D License)

May 3, 2008, 12:35 AM
Post #23 of 72 (3423 views)
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Re: [peek] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Never ever allow a first time student to assist in landing, ...

So don't you think there is a way to train your student to land safely while learning canopy control under your supervision?

Other students manage to learn these things, and they are all alone landing their parachute.

Oh there is absolutely a way to do this.

First of all tandems are sold (western europe) as a thrillride from the beginning. Not as a way to start skydiving. This is clear for everyone including the passengers. If they are really interesting in starting they can book a AFF level 1 jump (1 jump only, with a discount if you take the remaining part of the course after). That means they are really pessengers, not students.

The savest way to land for a tandem is with the passenger feet up. The passenger should pay all attention to do this and use their hands to hold their knees, so they do not have hands left to assist in landing. I tried several times to let the student assist in flaring, but they find it contradicting to keep feet up and lower hands. So do not do this unless you are absolutely sure. Majority of the passengers does note even want to steer the canopy, they just want to look around.

Point is: first be save, after that consider the extra's like assisting in landing or try to stand-up on landing
Attachments: 200408_0030.jpg (182 KB)


popsjumper  (D 999999999)

May 3, 2008, 4:31 AM
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Re: [milehighpres] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

I hope you don't mind if I ask a question or two in your thread. I am thinking about gaining a Tandem rating but I have a couple of major concerns that I would like to ask you TIs and TMs too.

1. Side spin recovery. I've seen videos of some (to me) really nasty ones. The one TI that I know that has had a bad one threw the drouge as a last resort.
So, question: Is side spin recovery something that you will learn and practice in the TI course? If not, how do you get to learn and practice recovery? By trial and error when it happens?

2. Landing assist. Hmmmm...seems to me, and it has happened, that allowing a "student" to assist on landing is potentially dangerous. Student gets ground rush and flares early and you both pound in...and hurt.
So, question: In the big scheme of things, is it worth it to you, or the student, to add on that extra danger?

Please keep in mind: Question 1 is directed at ANY tandem jump and question 2 is directed at those (from the students point of view) "joyrides"....a Tandem joyride is quite different than say a Tandem Progression jump where the goal really IS to teach the student something and I'm addressing those "joyrides" only in question 2.

Thanks in advance for your tolerance and input.


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

May 3, 2008, 4:55 AM
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Re: [popsjumper] NEW tandem masters [In reply to] Can't Post

1) You will learn about side spins in your Tandem Course - how they happen and how to recover from them. You will likely not practice it. Bill Morrisey made a great video while he was the Tandem Director at Strong . . . it is now available on DVD. It shows Bill practicing side spin recovery by himself during solo jumps - you could certainly do that to practice recovery.

Side note: I have had two of them start, but never fully develop because I was able to recover them. Both of them were small, fit, female students (opposite of what one would think would start a side spin). In both cases they piked on me with their legs straight out in the front, which tipped us over.

The key to preventing a side spin is exposing your flying surfaces, not the side of the pair, to the relative wind on exit.

2) For fun tandems ("joyrides" as you call them) I don't have the student in the toggles on landing except on very rare occasions - normally when the student has already made a couple of tandems and I want to add something else to their experience. In 99% of the cases I would rather have their hands helping to keep their legs and feet up and out of the way.

On the occasions I do have them in the toggles, I push their hands with mine all the way to the full-flight position and wrap my thumbs around the rear risers to "lock" the toggles in that position until I am ready to flare. This prevents the student from pulling the toggles down too early, like tryying to use them for leverage to lift their legs up.


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