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AFFI/Coach Differences?

 

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Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 9, 2008, 5:03 PM
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AFFI/Coach Differences? Can't Post

What is the differences in required skills between an USPA coach and an USPA AFFI?

What are the differences in responsibilities?

Derek


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 9, 2008, 5:26 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Difference in skills required: AFF instructor requires the ability to perform a harness hold exit, dock, roll over and stabilize an out of control student, deploy for student.

Difference in responsibilities: See above. Lower limit for performing said actions is 2000ft AGL.

Edit: Applies to freefall skils only.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Apr 9, 2008, 5:27 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 9, 2008, 6:16 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Is that in the SIM? I am just curious if or how things have changed.

Derek


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Apr 9, 2008, 7:10 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

It isn't in the SIM. Look in the USPA Instructional Rating Manual (IRM). An abridged version of the IRM, "Essentials", is available for free here:

http://www.uspa.org/...008IRMEssentials.pdf

Best I can tell, the complete IRM is only available on paper for a fee.


diablopilot  (D License)

Apr 9, 2008, 7:16 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's my off the cuff assessment. Nothing official.


Fast  (D 28237)

Apr 10, 2008, 9:42 AM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
What is the differences in required skills between an USPA coach and an USPA AFFI?

What are the differences in responsibilities?

Derek

When I was just a coach I was never responsible for making sure my student was stable in freefall. It was expected that I wouldn't get to see someone who couldn't do that for themselves. I was not allowed to pull for a student either.

As an AFFI, those things are now my responsibility.

I have also found that as an AFFI you just have to be a much better teacher than you do as a coach. Not saying it isn't good to be a good teacher as a coach, just there is a lot more wisdom that you have to impart in a very short period of time as an AFFI.


(This post was edited by Fast on Apr 10, 2008, 9:43 AM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 11:29 AM
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Re: [Fast] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

'allowed' 'expected' by whom?

Is there anything official, in writing, out there?

Derek


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 12:06 PM
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Re: [Fast] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Good post, Derk . . .

The teaching aspects of AFF shouldn't be over shadowed by air skills, which sadly is the case most of time. Even in the AFF cert course we put the emphasis not on a person's cerebral skills but on their monkey skills. The aforementioned skill of linked exits, imparting stability, monitoring altitude and ensuring an open canopy is the basic parlor trick of every AFF rating holder. And even from scratch it's something you can be taught to do well in a short period of time. But teaching, imparting the right information, to a varied in ability cross section of people is a talent you either have or you don't. It calls for empathy (putting yourself in the student's place), patience, and having more than one trick up your sleeve.

Before I continue, I always get notes, after a post like this from folks who say that's not how it is at my DZ, and I fully realize we all over the map on how we teach skydiving. And that right there shows the depth of the problem we have. And so the following is general in nature.

In my entire AFF career since 1984 I've met very few rating holders who didn't possess acceptable air skills. But I've met way too many who didnt have the teaching skills. I believe we need to go back to a three rating level system. AFF Instructors who would be allowed to teach first jump courses and do jumps with students, AFF Jumpmasters would do jumps with students, but not teach first jump courses, and AFF Apprentices would be folks in training to become AFF jumpmasters. As an aside people who conduct tandem jumps should be called Tandem Masters and not Tandem Instructors. (Even if they hold an AFF instructor rating). Tandem Instructor should be reserved for people who teach new Tandem Masters. Is the guy who takes your ticket and makes sure you are buckled in on the Ferris wheel down at the carnival a Ferris wheel Instructor?

And in a really perfect world Coach would be the highest rating of all and these folks would be our most experienced AFF Instructors who, because they can't hack the daily grind of handling students anymore, are put out to pasture. Right now we really squander that experience. A Coach rating should be the "gold watch" of our sport and certainly in no way an entry level position. There's a good reason that in big league baseball the first and third base coaches are not twenty year olds . . .

Right now we figure as long as the air skills are there the teaching skills will develop. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. Some people are just cut out to teach and some aren't. I've seen too many heavily medaled record holders who couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. So we wind up with jumpers like the subject of the current Hawaii incident. And also the involved Instructors, like the one with 18000 jumps, who's put up as infallible. Guess what, guess again . . .

Right now we use theater, not skill, to initially judge our Instructors. Right now we make our fledging Instructors recite the syllabus by rout, figuring the thousandth performance of the Rocky Horror Show will be better than the first. But sometimes it only gets worse because your performer has zero talent. There are really three kinds of students. The average one, the below average one, and the above average one. Not knowing how to connect with each means you are losing part of your class. And the old saw about teaching to the dumbest in the room doesn't work either, as you never know who in the class gets handed the biggest challenge on their very first jump.

As far as where the blame for our current mess is, it's easy to point to the USPA, but while a mix of the too new, and the too old, I think they try to do the right thing and just can't. No, the real problem is the DZOs. Every time we try to rise up we get stymied and fired. And I dont know what we can do about that. But the USPA says often we Instructors are the backbone of the sport. Does anyone think it's about time we showed some?

NickD Smile


JustChuteMeNow

Apr 10, 2008, 12:13 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

If this question pertains to why people attending an AFF course need to have a coaches rating before they are qualified to attend the AFF course, I don't think the skill set differs at all. I think many people get bent over on this requirement. More money for the CD and more money for the USPA.

Yes, different information is covered in each course and depending on the CD excellent tips can be picked up BUT I'm betting that handouts and a review could do the same thing.


(This post was edited by JustChuteMeNow on Apr 10, 2008, 12:16 PM)


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 12:26 PM
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Re: [JustChuteMeNow] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If this question pertains to why people attending an AFF course need to have a coaches rating before they are qualified to attend the AFF course

No, just wondering what the required skills and responsibilities for an USPA Coach and an USPA AFFI are and how they differ. I thought this would be an easy question to answer, but I still haven't gotten an answer to these 2 questions. I am a bit surprised. Doesn't matter, I was just curious.

Derek


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 12:56 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

>>Doesn't matter<<

Well, yeah it does . . .

The current BS that doesn't work is here:

http://www.uspa.org/...ndixDProfCards08.pdf

All you need is a "buddy" to sign off all that crap and you're on your way . . .

NickD Smile


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:31 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Is there anything official, in writing, out there?

Yes, as stated above, it's in the IRM. For example from section 10.B. c & d (2006 IRM):

Quote:
c. If the student fails to turn and track after the wave-off, the coach should turn and track for sufficient separation and deployment by 3500 feet.

d. Under no circumstances should a USPA Coach assist with a students deployment.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:35 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
but I still haven't gotten an answer to these 2 questions.

You've been referred to the IRM, which has lots and lots of information in it about what skills are required and what the responsibilites are.

Did you want someone to type the manual out for you and post it here? LaughLaugh


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:37 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

That tells what a Coach can't do.........Do you know what the IRM contains about the responsibilities of a Coach or AFFI? Is there anything in there about what skills a Coach or AFFI must posses/what minimum standards they must be able to demonstrate prior to getting the rating(s)?

Derek


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:39 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Did you want someone to type the manual out for you and post it here?

Not the whole thing, just the parts that answer my questions.

Derek


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:43 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Not the whole thing, just the parts that answer my questions.

Well, good luck with that. The Coach section is 27 pages and AFF is 28 pages. Information about what the candidate is responsible to understand and how they are expected perform to earn each rating and maintain it is in those pages.


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:46 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

The only rule that counts is the "unwritten rule."

Call it Rule #9 . . .

Don't let any 100 jump wonder, novice, or student who might believe what you say, die. If you aren't capable of that then don't ever talk to a 100 jump wonder, novice, or student . . .

NickD Smile


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:48 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Well, good luck with that. The Coach section is 27 pages and AFF is 28 pages. Information about what the candidate is responsible to understand and how they are expected perform to earn each rating and maintain it is in those pages.

Not exactly what I am looking for. I am looking for what exactly a Coach or AFFI is expected to do be prepared to do start to finish with a student. What is the minimum perfomance standards for actually taking a student on a jump? Does the IRM specify if an AFFI must be able to pull for a student, roll a student over, treach riser turns, etc?

Derek


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 3:01 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, the IRM does list specific criteria that will result in a mandatory unsat for the candidate including failure to simulate deploying for the student by 3500 (I think that counts as requiring the candidate instructor to pull for the student) and inability to assist simulated unstable student (ie, roll them over if they're on their back)

I haven't read the AFF section yet so I don't know if it says anywhere in there that an AFFI is required to deploy a student by 3500 feet, but I'd bet it is. The Coach section is really specific about what procedures should be followed regarding gear checks, briefing, debriefing, canopy control, freefall, break-off, etc.

Edit having browsed more of the AFF section.

Yes, there are specific methods listed as the individual reserve or main side instructor's responsibilites during each category of jump. For example, on a Cat A jump the main is required to pull for the student at 4500. If that hasn't happened for some reason, the reserve side deploys the student by 4000. The reserve side is also required to deploy the students reserve by 2500 if nothing is out by then. It's all mapped out and very specific about who's job is who's and what they should be doing.

There are also specific instructions about who should be responding to different kinds of instability and detailed explainations of how to correct them.


(This post was edited by labrys on Apr 10, 2008, 3:15 PM)


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 3:09 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

The USPA will never break it down into terms you are after. The USPA is run by DZOs, or at least highly influenced by them, and they don't want to be sued. See the problem?

NickD Smile


djmarvin  (D 22292)

Apr 10, 2008, 3:14 PM
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Re: [Hooknswoop] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Look on the Proficiency Card of each rating. It has the requirements to pass. Also look at the evaluation sheets. Neither specify a degree of ability, just the ability. I believe that USPA should publish in the IRM what a SAT score is for each entry on the evaluation sheets for clarity between candidates, evaluators, and course directors.


labrys  (D 29848)

Apr 10, 2008, 3:22 PM
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Re: [djmarvin] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Look on the Proficiency Card of each rating. It has the requirements to pass. Also look at the evaluation sheets. Neither specify a degree of ability, just the ability. I believe that USPA should publish in the IRM what a SAT score is for each entry on the evaluation sheets for clarity between candidates, evaluators, and course directors.

Maybe I'm missing something. The IRM is jam-packed with very detailed, very specific instructions about how each and every category of jump should be conducted and what the student, coach, and / or instructors responsibilites are on that jump. It also includes very detailed information about what to do if things go wrong, including when it's applicable exactly which instructor should respond and what they should do.

What more do you guys want? Where's the conspiracy with the USPA?


NickDG  (D 8904)

Apr 10, 2008, 4:35 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see that. All I see is what holds up in court and not what holds a student up in the air . . . The USPA follows the same pattern as the FAA, they are reactionary and not pro-active. It's why the BSR's are only suggestions. They don't want to take a chance of being sued back into an old whore house in San Francisco where they started.

The way it should work is if you want to be an Instructor, you have to get passed me, or in terms of Instructors who post here, I'll include Tom Buchanan. And if we are really really really backed up, Bill Von. But then there would be an asterisk after your name in the Instructor list.

And if they sue me then they can have my paid off trailer in the Perris Ghetto . . .

NickD Smile


Hooknswoop  (D License)

Apr 10, 2008, 4:57 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Maybe I'm missing something. The IRM is jam-packed with very detailed, very specific instructions about how each and every category of jump should be conducted and what the student, coach, and / or instructors responsibilites are on that jump. It also includes very detailed information about what to do if things go wrong, including when it's applicable exactly which instructor should respond and what they should do.

I checked the link provided and couldn't find the information you describe.

Derek


djmarvin  (D 22292)

Apr 10, 2008, 5:14 PM
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Re: [labrys] AFFI/Coach Differences? [In reply to] Can't Post

I referred to the evaluation sheet needing more information. What is a timely response to a roll over? I have not seen that written anywhere, however it is a criteria on the AFF in air evaluation sheet.

I am not attacking USPA or claiming any conspiracy as you may have inferred. I just believe it would create a clearer line for all parties involved in any rating course. For what it is worth I am a CD for both tandem and coach as well as a designated evaluator for aff. I have worked in numerous courses and have seen this line become unclear to candidates. I have seen the same candidates receive clear instructions from the CD and/or evaluators, but with all the information given in any rating course it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that someone forgets something. Wouldn't it be nice to know what you are expected to accomplish prior to showing up to any course.


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