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recurrency jump wind restrictions?

 

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alex49201  (D 31367)

Apr 7, 2008, 6:18 AM
Post #1 of 30 (6271 views)
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recurrency jump wind restrictions? Can't Post

Hey all, long time reader, first time poster!

Had a quick question, hoping to get an answer and some opinions.

I've been searching throught the SIM online, trying to find where (if anywhere) there are wind restrictions on recurrency jumps. This, would'be been, my first recurrency jump, i got my license last fall and just took the winter off (gotta love michigan). Anyhow, after much anticipation, i showed up at the DZ on sunday, and wasn't allowed to jump!

I was told it was too windy for a recurrency jump, even though loads were going up with tandems and other fun jumpers with licenses A and up..

Anyhow, two questions:

1. Obviously there is a safty issue here, and with any such issue there is a call to make, yay or nay. What would of you done? With my experience level, was it better to pass on the jump and come back next weekend, or go ahead and do the jump?

2. Whose call was it to make? Mine, the uncurrent A license holder or the DZ? (per se, is an un-current jumper back to student status - unable to make their own decissions?)

PS. For the record, i have 39 jumps, and have been off 5 months for winter, winds were at 17mph, with gusts up to 22mph

PSS. I'm not pissing and moaning, love my DZ, respect there opinion, and realize they're looking out for my saftey... but at the same time was very disappointed on my drive home.. :(


beowulf  (C License)

Apr 7, 2008, 6:37 AM
Post #2 of 30 (6242 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Their planes, their instuctors, their rules, their decision not yours. You don't really have a choice, but to follow their rules.

Don't worry about it and try again next weekend. With your number of jumps. I think they made the right decision.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Apr 7, 2008, 6:41 AM
Post #3 of 30 (6237 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Technically in this case you needed an instructor to do your recurrency, that ment that they are taking you back as a student and you could be subject to the same wind restrictions that students have. In reality 17 gusting to 22 is a really good clip even for an experienced jumper and I would have talked to some of my friends that recently got their A and B's about waiting until they got current again before jumpiong in those conditions.


Premier skymama  (D 26699)
Moderator
Apr 7, 2008, 6:48 AM
Post #4 of 30 (6227 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

I wouldn't have jumped in those conditions and I have a D-license and am current. I'm a wuss though. Tongue


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Apr 7, 2008, 7:00 AM
Post #5 of 30 (6212 views)
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Re: [skymama] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I wouldn't have jumped in those conditions and I have a D-license and am current. I'm a wuss though.

Me too.

Watched someone with about 50 jumps who is current almost land in trees on Saturday in the exact same conditions.

Be thankful you jump at a dz where they give a shit, alex.


AllisonH  (D 29505)

Apr 7, 2008, 7:11 AM
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

I (and other much more experienced jumpers) chose not to jump in those winds. At least one tandem instructor refused to take up tandems after the turbulence he experienced under a small crossbraced canopy.

Have I jumped in winds like that before? Yes. Would I have probably been ok? Yes. Is it worth the risk when it's the second day of the season and you're uncurrent? To me it's not. I'd rather drive back next weekend than spend the week in the hospital.

If I'd been responsible for an uncurrent inexperienced jumper yesterday, we would have spent the afternoon on the ground reviewing emergency procedures and planning cool jumps to do later in the summer.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Apr 7, 2008, 8:26 AM
Post #7 of 30 (6173 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
winds were at 17mph, with gusts up to 22mph

I would have made you sit on the ground as well. They made a great choice.
And, FWIW, I would have been sitting on the ground with you......Wink


MajorDad  (D 579)

Apr 7, 2008, 8:47 AM
Post #8 of 30 (6159 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In Canada, those winds Gusts are above the level for A License Holders (max 18 mph) so you would have been sitting here no matter how current you were.

One of the other considerations is the fact you are a low-timer who is uncurrent. It is very important after a winter lay-off to dial it back a few notches till you do get current. There is a higher number of accidents and fatalities in the first couple of months of the season due to people trying to start off exactly were they were at the end of the previous season.

And I am also one of those who would have been on the ground in those winds this early in the season because I am not current (in fact still snow on the ground here.....)

Have a good one.


JustChuteMeNow

Apr 7, 2008, 9:02 AM
Post #9 of 30 (6145 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I've been searching throught the SIM online, trying to find where (if anywhere) there are wind restrictions on recurrency jumps

Once a person recieves their license there are no wind restrictions in the US per the BSRs and the SIMS. There are also no guidelines for licensed jumpers regarding winds and recurrency jumps. Commen sense and judgement is left to the individual jumpers.

That said a DZ can set up any rules and guidelines that they want and in this case it sounds like they made a very good call since you were uncurrent and a fairly new jumper.

Last but not least,
Quote:
Hey all, long time reader, first time poster!
Beer!Beer!


(This post was edited by JustChuteMeNow on Apr 7, 2008, 9:04 AM)


pinkfairy  (C 85665)

Apr 7, 2008, 9:58 AM
Post #10 of 30 (6108 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

That wind was above my wind limit, and I have more jumps than you.

Wink

Talk to your instructor about personal wind limits, what his is, and what he thinks yours should be.

IMO, if you're flying student gear, I think you should be on student wind limit. You haven't filled out your profile, so I'm just guessing.

I learned the hard way why wind limits are important. A broken ankle isn't such a big deal, but they do hurt and cost money. And I would have gotten more jumps that season if I had stayed on the ground that day.


DJL  (D License)

Apr 7, 2008, 10:04 AM
Post #11 of 30 (6100 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

That should've been you deciding not to jump. The DZ shouldn't even have had to say anything. I'm glad they did.

I'm not sure you've noticed but the incidents section starts blinking like Christmas lights at the beginning of the year.


format  (B 15348)

Apr 7, 2008, 11:15 AM
Post #12 of 30 (6057 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

These old timers you're asking...
that's what you and me need all the time inside us, the old timer's point of view and their judgement!

Yes, I know it's painful transformation but that's what we all want - to make the right decision.

btw, none of them wants to be responsible, including us 2

There's a plenty of time for wrong moves, be patient and you'll find yourself giving the same injuryproof advices.

of course they're right (if you wondered what I'm saying)


AnKaLi  (B 31361)

Apr 7, 2008, 12:09 PM
Post #13 of 30 (6017 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

A good indicator is the fact that most of the experienced fun jumpers sat on the ground on Sunday....

It was super windy and super squirrelly yesterday. I got in 2 jumps Saturday, but didn't feel comfortable jumping Sunday at all, it didn't seem safe or smart to me.

Watching people's canopy's buck around like they did made me alright with sitting on the ground all day!

If I remember correctly there were gusts up to 26mph...


(This post was edited by AnKaLi on Apr 7, 2008, 12:10 PM)


Programmer  (B 12345)

Apr 7, 2008, 7:45 PM
Post #14 of 30 (5916 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

To paraphrase - better to be disappointed on the drive home than downright depressed on the ride to the hospital.


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Apr 7, 2008, 7:52 PM
Post #15 of 30 (5910 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
winds were at 17mph, with gusts up to 22mph

I would've been sitting that out....


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Apr 7, 2008, 7:55 PM
Post #16 of 30 (5908 views)
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Re: [JustChuteMeNow] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Once a person recieves their license there are no wind restrictions in the US per the BSRs and the SIMS. There are also no guidelines for licensed jumpers regarding winds and recurrency jumps. Commen sense and judgement is left to the individual jumpers.

If they're doing a student-level recurrency jump (going back to Cat D or somesuch) wouldn't the wind limits for a student-in-training come into play, though?


Premier NWFlyer  (D License)

Apr 7, 2008, 10:41 PM
Post #17 of 30 (5880 views)
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Re: [mnealtx] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Once a person recieves their license there are no wind restrictions in the US per the BSRs and the SIMS. There are also no guidelines for licensed jumpers regarding winds and recurrency jumps. Commen sense and judgement is left to the individual jumpers.

If they're doing a student-level recurrency jump (going back to Cat D or somesuch) wouldn't the wind limits for a student-in-training come into play, though?

Everything in the SIM about recurrency is all recommendations, not requirements, so it's really up to the DZ how they interpret the SIM.

But, the fact also remains that DZ management can and does set wind limits for licensed jumpers all the time. DZs shut their planes down. DZs hold tandems. I've even been at one DZ that said "C license and above only" on a particular day. So even though we may technically have the right to make our own calls, we jump at the discretion of the management of the DZ every single day, and if they want to tell me one day that there's a wind limit for blondes, I'll happily sit down (if I hadn't decided to already, since I'm usually one of the first people on the ground when winds get wonky). LaughLaugh


(This post was edited by NWFlyer on Apr 7, 2008, 10:42 PM)


mnealtx  (B 30496)

Apr 8, 2008, 1:17 PM
Post #18 of 30 (5799 views)
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Re: [NWFlyer] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

I see what you mean...thanks for the explanation.


Vyxen  (C License)

Apr 9, 2008, 10:06 AM
Post #19 of 30 (5743 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just a little curious what you are REALLY looking for here.

You have posted this same post on tecumseh's forums and here. Out of the dozens of replies not ONE person has said "oh man, you totally should have jumped!"

So i hope you take away one of two things:
a) Willingness to listen to the people who know what they are doing (and maybe have done this before...once or twice....)

b) Have learned how to make the right decision for yourself next time (something that ONLY comes with time in the sport, which you my friend, are still very low on)

Its michigan. The first two months and last two months of season will either be raining or windy.

Come often, sit around a lot, jump when you can.
Cool


GLIDEANGLE  (D 30292)

Apr 9, 2008, 3:10 PM
Post #20 of 30 (5703 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

I won't tell you what to do... but I will tell you my story.

Beautiful day, wind ~22 mph. I am eager to jump. I get on the airplane (mistake #1 ). I jump out of the plane (mistake #2 ). Under canopy I note that I cannot make headway against the wind (canopy 210 sq ft loaded at 1.07 lb/sq ft.). I turn downwind (mistake #3 ). Everything begins to happen REALLY FAST. I let myself get too low before deciding to turn into the wind. (mistake #4 ). I realize that I am low, headed downwind with a groundspeed of ~40mph. I freak out (mistake #5 ). I decide to turn into the wind WAY TOO LOW (mistake #6 ). I make a terrified braked turn (flat turn) and have a hard but harmless landing.

Damage... Ego.

Lesson #1 ... If I had not made mistake #1 (getting on the plane) none of the other mistakes would have occured. I will be sitting out marginal winds for a long time until I am more experienced and skilled under canopy.

Lesson #2 ... occasionally a braked turn will save the life and limb of a stupid skydiver.

I jump for fun.... I did NOT find terror under canopy to be fun.

Blue Skies


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 10, 2008, 6:10 AM
Post #21 of 30 (5649 views)
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Re: [alex49201] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Recurrency jumps are student jumps. Student wind BSR's apply.

Good rules are often a substitute for good judgment. I really hope that in winds like this you would choose to sit on the ground, rather than have to require someone to tell you to sit on the ground.

Use good judgment.

Also, keep in mind that a disappointing drive home is a much better outcome then many of the alternatives.

_Am


JustChuteMeNow

Apr 10, 2008, 9:33 AM
Post #22 of 30 (5632 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Recurrency jumps are student jumps. Student wind BSR's apply.

There is nothing that states that licensed skydivers can not still jump in whatever winds that they want even if they are doing a recurrency jump. Actually there is nothing that says a licensed skydiver MUST do a recurrency jump. The wording in the SIMS just states SHOULD do a recurrency jump. I should eat more healty and I should check my gear before each jump. The SIMS states a lot of shoulds but ultimately the USPA says jumpers are adults and can make adult decesions. Like was stated earlier, DZs can set their own rules and guidelines but it is not a BSR and it is not required by USPA.

EDIT TO ADD: I think having a DZ policy that does require uncurrent skydivers to follow student wind guidelines is a good idea.


(This post was edited by JustChuteMeNow on Apr 10, 2008, 11:54 AM)


superhina  (D 230813683)

Apr 10, 2008, 2:06 PM
Post #23 of 30 (5589 views)
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Re: [format] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

A bre Sinke, al ti ovaj Engleski sa Pozarevackim naglaskom. MasalaWink

P.S. sta mislis dali da obracunam ovim Amerima moj sadanji wingloud sa ovom zimskom kilazom?Tongue


format  (B 15348)

Apr 11, 2008, 5:45 AM
Post #24 of 30 (5542 views)
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Re: [superhina] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
This is friend of mine,
I have no doubt he agrees with majority on this thread!
In fact, 2 times at least, we skipped flying 'cause of the wind conditions.

I was told to and he decided to.

and for the above - unusual way for posting on eng-writing forum but... Wink talking of xtraordinary, new things happen


alex49201  (D 31367)

Apr 11, 2008, 12:14 PM
Post #25 of 30 (5514 views)
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Re: [Vyxen] recurrency jump wind restrictions? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Just a little curious what you are REALLY looking for here.

You have posted this same post on tecumseh's forums and here. Out of the dozens of replies not ONE person has said "oh man, you totally should have jumped!"
Cool

I got exactly what i was looking for. I wanted to know the "right" (per general consensus) answer. (not to be confused with, "i wanted my answer to be right")..

Answer to OP (me) Question #1 -- With my experience level, and in those conditions, AND being uncurrent (thats just icing on the cake, the first two were enough i think). No, I shouldn't have jumped. Would I have gotton hurt? maybe/maybe not, who knows. Did i have a significantly increased risk factor? Yes. Was it worth an increased risk just because "i really wanted too"? No. Was it worth an increased risk because i'd been a long time and i really, really wanted to? Double wammy, NO.

Answer to OP (me) Question #2 -- This one is *slightly* less clear, but it's somewhere between the DZ (it's their plane, and if they don't want to let you on it, then you're got getting on it; if you force them to play that card) and a consensus of DZ, instructor, coach, and the jumper (with weight going in declining order). In this case both the DZO and instructor were against the jump, a coach was weary but willing, and i (the in-experienced newbie) was all rearing to go and trying to persaude them to let me! Plain and simply, i was out-numbered and overruled, and properly so.

What have I learned?

1. If three experienced and impartial skydivers are telling you that you probably shouldn't do something, you probably shouldn't. (And you don't need to go ask thirty more just to double check!)

2. License/no license/current/uncurrent -- Either way, I'm still not very experienced and should act like it a bit more. More listening, less talking :)

And to answer your original quesion, why did i post? Well, personally if i'm wrong about something, i'd rather find out as soon as possible (without someone contradicting me, my mind will go from "maybe i'm right" to "conspiracy theory" in about a week and a half; j/k, a bit). Rather than that, i figured it'd be a lot more effective to find out if i was wrong quickly (which i was) and instead spend the week doing/learning something about it.

So, going forward...

Thanks are in order to the three that didn't let me jump; a. because they didn't let me jump & b. because from the tone of some of the replies i've seen, i think i may have come off a bit rude/?? in my original post; which if i did, i apologize, it was not intended.

Also, I know for the few hours i was there on sunday, one person had handed me their camera and asked me to grab a snapshot of their landing.. and while waiting the 30 minutes or so minutes for them to go up & down, was about the only time that day i wasn't worried about my own jump (or lack their of). So, from here on out, I figure i'll just bring my own camera with me (no i'm not good at photography, but i do enjoy it, and it looks like this could well repeat at anytime).. And next time if i can't jump, or just decide not to... you'll just find me on the ground taking pictures of anyone that does.

Anyhow, a few more lessons learned with lots more to go. Thanks everyone for all the answers, opinions, and comments.

PS. yeah, sorry about the double post, i posted their first, then thought it might not be very active so i reposted here; which yeah, i was wrong again ;)

Jeromy


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