Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Vengeance

 


jambrich

Mar 30, 2008, 7:45 PM
Post #1 of 18 (2389 views)
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Vengeance Can't Post

I am wondering why P.D. does not make the Vengeance is it due to bad openings? Or maybe it was just time for a change. I'm looking at a few different options for a different canopy and the Vengeance might be on my list. Let me know what you guys think.


Sabre1Lucke  (D License)

Mar 31, 2008, 3:06 AM
Post #2 of 18 (2337 views)
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Re: [jambrich] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

- Too expensive to build compared to the amount they were selling?
- Evolution in canopies?

Just a few ideas


JohnnyZ  (D 27129)

Mar 31, 2008, 8:48 AM
Post #3 of 18 (2285 views)
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Re: [Sabre1Lucke] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

If you want an air-locked canopy, you can still buy a Samurai.


BMFin

Mar 31, 2008, 11:32 AM
Post #4 of 18 (2239 views)
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Re: [jambrich] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

I have understood that PD will make a vengeance if someone orders one..

I made <50 jumps on a vengeance and not one opening was bad at all. A little twichy yes, but never hard.

I liked the canopy. The only negative thing is that it can be a pain in the ass to get the air out of it once you have landed..

I think one of the reasons why PD stopped offering the VN could be that they have to pay licence payments to Brian Germain because of the airlock design.. Though this is just a guess, so I could be wrong here..


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 31, 2008, 11:45 AM
Post #5 of 18 (2236 views)
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Re: [jambrich] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

Well instead of guessing, I contacted the factory for the straight answer about the Vengence.

Basically the canopy wasn't a big seller and a much better canopy was released to take its place in the product lineup, the Katana. The factory still knows how to make the canopy, just like they know still know how to make a Sabre1, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll make you one. Obviously they're still maintaining the canopies that people have purchased and have no plans to discontinue offering maintenance.

As for the airlock patents and royalties, as I understand it Germain invented the airlock, but he doesn't own the patent. Furthermore, I wouldn't think that PD would have discontinued a product simply due to royalties. Look at the Velocity, PD will make what people want regardless of the cost to manufacture the canopy; however, the cost will obviously be passed on to the consumer, which would be expected.


BMFin

Mar 31, 2008, 11:54 AM
Post #6 of 18 (2227 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well instead of guessing, I contacted the factory for the straight answer about the Vengence.

Did you get a straight answer? What was it ? Do they still make you a VN if you want one ?


AggieDave  (D License)

Mar 31, 2008, 11:56 AM
Post #7 of 18 (2224 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

Dude.

Quote:
The factory still knows how to make the canopy, just like they know still know how to make a Sabre1, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll make you one.

That's a nice way of saying no. Or more appropriately, if you offered $100,000, then they'd probably make you any canopy that you wanted.Tongue


BMFin

Mar 31, 2008, 12:30 PM
Post #8 of 18 (2197 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

You dont think 2500 dollars is enough ?

Not trying to argue here. Im just trying to point out that when ever someone asks about the VN from PD they never give a straight answer.


Quote:
The factory still knows how to make the canopy, just like they know still know how to make a Sabre1, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll make you one.

Was this their answer..? To me it doesnt mean anything one way or another..


Kolla  (D License)

Mar 31, 2008, 1:18 PM
Post #9 of 18 (2176 views)
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Re: [BMFin] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey - I'll gladly just get straight to the point :)

The Vengeance is a product that has been discontinued, we do not accept orders.

If airlocks are your fancy, then I suggest contacting Big Air Sportz. If if it is the performance of the Vengeance you like, I would recommend trying the Katana.

Hope that helps!

Blue ones,

Kolla Kolbeinsdottir
Performance Designs, Inc.


hparrish  (D 25090)

Mar 31, 2008, 2:04 PM
Post #10 of 18 (2152 views)
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Re: [Kolla] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

Ironically.........PD Manufactures the Big Air Sportz canopy line.

So if you order a Samurai which is what the Vengeance Design was based from, you are getting an Air Locked canopy, designed by Brian Germain and built by PD.

To me the Samurai is the better canopy anyway. The Line Trim set is different than the Vengeance which makes a Samuria a little more ground hungry than a Vengeance. The Samurai also had more of a Negative Recovery Arc than the Vengeance. For me.......That is the performance I wanted. I owned two Vengenace canopies and One Samurai and thought the Samurai was superior.

That is the straight scoop from a former Big Air Sportz Dealer........Me.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Mar 31, 2008, 4:11 PM
Post #11 of 18 (2119 views)
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Re: [jambrich] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

It just wasn't that good of a canopy. The Samurai was a far better option for anyone looking for Airlocks. The Katana is a far better option for someone looking for a good swooper that's more friendly than a Velocity.

Keep in mind that Big Air Sportz contracts with PD to build the Samurais - so PD gets paid no matter which airlocked canopy that somebody buys.

_Am


jambrich

Mar 31, 2008, 8:31 PM
Post #12 of 18 (2086 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

I am looking for a kat or crossfire2 at this point. 120-135 if anyone knows of anyone selling pls let me know.


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Apr 1, 2008, 3:12 PM
Post #13 of 18 (1989 views)
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Re: [jambrich] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

i have close to 1000 jumps on various size vengance.
they are an awesome canopy. at the time they were the best stepping stone to the velo. i never chopped one, and had pretty consistant openings. they are a pain in the ass on windy days trying to gather up after landing.
i loved having airlocks, whether or not i was safer i felt safer in turbulant conditions with airlocks.
the canopy dives great and has awesome rear riser range! honestly its a shame they dont make the veng any longer.
good news is you can get used ones super cheap becuz they arent that desired.
i flew a 135 and a 120 then went to the velo 96. it was a very smooth transistion. the velo was obviously different but to be honest it didnt feel all that un familiar after so many jumps on my veng.
now that the katana and xcrss2 are out there it they have dominated the market. but imo the veng has qualities you just cant get from any other wing besides the big air sports airlocked samurai.


livenletfly  (D 28096)

Apr 1, 2008, 3:16 PM
Post #14 of 18 (1987 views)
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Re: [AndyMan] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

i cant disagree more. i think you will find that people that have put a good amount of jumps on the veng have alot of good things to say about em.
most nay sayers either put only a couple jumps on the veng or never jumped one.
they were a great canopy. the openings at the time where consistant with most of pds products of that generation. pd's are not exactly known for outstanding openings.


hparrish  (D 25090)

Apr 1, 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #15 of 18 (1945 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with him.........I owned both a Vengeance 120 and a Samurai 120, put about 200 on the Vengeance and 400 on the Samurai. I thought the Samurai was a MUCH Better canopy, in just about every aspect.


AndyMan  (D 25698)

Apr 2, 2008, 9:15 PM
Post #16 of 18 (1886 views)
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Re: [livenletfly] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i cant disagree more. i think you will find that people that have put a good amount of jumps on the veng have alot of good things to say about em.

I have more than enough jumps on the Vengence, Samurai, and Katana to know that for me, the Vengence is by far the weakest canopy.

Overall, I think I prefer the Katana over the other two.

I'm glad you're happy with your Vengence, though - in the end, that's all that matters!

_Am


dragon2  (D 101989)

Apr 3, 2008, 9:08 AM
Post #17 of 18 (1839 views)
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Re: [jambrich] Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

There are some vengeances with a tendency to open off-heading, I love my 135 and a 135 and a 120 I borrow sometimes, I jumped another 135 that always opened in a left turn... If I didn't wingsuit and they didn't pack so big I'd fly a vengeance still.


skydivexxl  (D License)

Apr 3, 2008, 4:22 PM
Post #18 of 18 (1786 views)
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Re: Vengeance [In reply to] Can't Post

My Vengeance 150 was a great transition between my Stiletto 170 and my Velocity 120. Great all-around canopy. I put 500+ jumps on it, and now ground launch with it.

Don't knock it till you try it!



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