Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
learning steps on a stiletto

 


2ndgensteinke  (F License)

Mar 9, 2008, 10:26 PM
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learning steps on a stiletto Can't Post

I just got a new stiletto 170 a few months ago loading @ about 1.23 im starting the basics of swooping, I have had a solid pattern for many jumps and am wondering what the next steps would be, maybe using front risers on my pattern turns rather than than toggles?? not sure, just looking for some advice here. ripping my head off is not going to chanage my mindset.. just not sure on the best way to learn is.. people have told me a few different ways... thanks for helping.


freeflydrew  (D 23992)

Mar 10, 2008, 7:36 AM
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

Just go slow and keep on jumping... kudos to the person who sold you a stiletto (even if it was a business).

Using fronts on your pattern turns will make you lose altitude faster... are you sure that makes sense for learning?

How about experimenting up high and not changing anything down low.

Here's some advice: Don't become someone who gets hurt because they were too impatient to follow a normal progression towards swooping a canopy... like minimum jump numbers.


2ndgensteinke  (F License)

Mar 10, 2008, 10:07 AM
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Re: [freeflydrew] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

right, im planning on going slow. i have done a number of hop and pops from 9k and done nothing but front and rear risers. pretty hard to figure exactley how much alt. you are losing with an anolog altimiter. just not sure where to go from their. once I get many hop and pops from 9k then im lost, and don't want to just wing it and get myself in a situation I shouldn't be in. thanks
blues


vesatoro  (D 2241)

Mar 10, 2008, 10:19 AM
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
im lost, and don't want to just wing it and get myself in a situation I shouldn't be in.

I think you already are. In my opinion, at the moment you should be jumping similarly sized Sabre2 or some other "semi elliptic" canopy.


(This post was edited by vesatoro on Mar 10, 2008, 10:22 AM)


brenthutch  (D 27927)

Mar 10, 2008, 1:52 PM
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Re: [vesatoro] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

First: Take a canopy course and get another 300 jumps.
Second: Keep your turns to 90 or less. A stiletto at that wingloading has a very quick recovery arc. This means in order to generate and maintain the energy for a high performace landing, you have to initiate your turn very low. This gives you very little (no) room for miscalculation. The stiletto is a fun fast turning canopy but in my opinion it is not a swooper.


skydivingchad  (D 28984)

Mar 10, 2008, 3:29 PM
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Re: [brenthutch] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you know about swooping, I've seen you land and it ain't pretty Tongue Wink


br0k3n  (D 3822)

Mar 10, 2008, 7:16 PM
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
pretty hard to figure exactley how much alt. you are losing with an anolog altimiter

First then dont you think a digi alti would be good start.

If i had any advice it would be take some canopy control courses, take your time to develop your skills, and build experience.

There is no quick way to learn to swoop, you need to put in the hard yards, and by this I mean 100s of jumps..

I wouldn't really be reccomending that you start attempt to swoop just yet, this will come but not yet..


Premier ianmdrennan  (D 25821)
Moderator
Mar 10, 2008, 7:34 PM
Post #8 of 22 (1928 views)
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Re: [br0k3n] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll throw my hat in the ring too, and suggest quality coaching.


2ndgensteinke  (F License)

Mar 11, 2008, 1:43 AM
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Re: [ianmdrennan] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

right.. not going to take any advice over the internet to heart. just feeling around how other people have started in the past. I havn't and don't plan on doing anything front riser related below 1000. just forecasting and trying to see if their is things I can work on now to get to that next step without putting myself or other pilots in danger. thanks all!


damion75  (D 102144)

Mar 11, 2008, 3:55 AM
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

My only advice on this one (apart from completely agreeing about the coaching!) it to keep your eyes wide wide open when you are messing around trying to feel the canopy.

Don't get caught up in what you are doing and forget to keep an eye out for traffic and your location over the ground. Landing out on a hop and pop is just foolish... Tongue

Colliding with someone else on the other hand, while practising riser turns etc, could easily be lethal. Pirate


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 11, 2008, 4:41 AM
Post #11 of 22 (1873 views)
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
things I can work on now to get to that next step without putting myself or other pilots in danger.

Well, with 145 jumps you bought one of the fastest turning canopies ever made, so that's strike one against keeping yourself out of danger.

If you find yourself low, and needing to make a turn to avoid another canopy or obstacle, grit your teeth and get tough, you're going to need it.


And for the record, the internet advice you ignore is the advice that encourages you to be less safe than you first thought. Advice that tells you you may not be safe enough should be seriously considered, regardless of the source.


LoudDan  (D 27481)

Mar 11, 2008, 8:26 AM
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Re: [davelepka] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

I will agree with Ian definately seek out quality canopy coaching from a reputable coach. I would also take a moment to seriously consider selling your Stilletto and buying a similarlly sized Sabre II. The Sabre II has a longer recovery arc which is more condusive to swooping, is not packing sensitive, and being a shaped or tapered canopy is less condusive (at least in my experience 850 Sabre II jumps) to line twists and spinnies. In essence it is a more all around stable platform to learn on as apposed to a Stilletto on which in my opinion you should already be a fairly competant pilot.

Just FYI when the Stilletto was introduced PD required the purchasing pilot to have at least 1,000 jumps.

There are people that will tell you "You'll be fine as long as............" You have to ask yourself if at your current experience level you can handle the variables like a rapidly spinning/ diving malfunction, would you feel comfortable exiting the plane @ 2,000 feet if an emergency arrose, could you plant that canopy down in someones back yard if you had to.

The largest part of being a swooper is recognizing your limits, exercising restraint and making good decisions.

Please don't think we're all beating up on you, we just want to see you be successfull and safe.


voyagers47  (D 29173)

Mar 13, 2008, 12:05 AM
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Re: [LoudDan] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

The biggest issue is that the smaller and more higher performance canopy you go with, the smaller the margin of error becomes. Lower jumps numbers doesn't suggest that you can't "land" the canopy, but you are much less likely to recognize when you've stepped out of the safe margin before it's too late. Every swooper can tell you a story of when the "oh sh*t" light came on but they were able to recognize it and react because of experience and knowing what their canopy would do. Most people I know (incl. swoopers) that get a new canopy don't think about pushing the envelope right away or ask how to push it. They get up high and test it! Then, GO SLOW. Even a baby step and be 5 feet too low and we all know what that gets you at high speed...


2ndgensteinke  (F License)

Mar 13, 2008, 2:09 AM
Post #14 of 22 (1721 views)
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Re: [davelepka] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

fastest canopies ever made?? what about cross braced canopies? from what i hear the stiletto is the lesser o the evils.. just what i heard though..Smile


damion75  (D 102144)

Mar 13, 2008, 2:16 AM
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
fastest canopies ever made?? what about cross braced canopies? from what i hear the stiletto is the lesser o the evils.. just what i heard though..Smile

You either heard wrong, or you just read the post wrong. He didn't say fastest, he said fastest turning.

Big difference... and he is right too. Funny that! Tongue


davelepka  (D 21448)

Mar 13, 2008, 6:01 AM
Post #16 of 22 (1693 views)
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
fastest canopies ever made?? what about cross braced canopies? from what i hear the stiletto is the lesser o the evils..


What I said was 'fastest turning', as in 'no canopy can smack you into the ground faster after a low panic turn than a Stiletto'.

Also, what business do you have with 145 jumps picking the lesser of any evils? You should be looking for a canopy that is far from evil, but thanks for giving me another way to make my point.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Mar 13, 2008, 2:23 PM
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Re: [davelepka] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
fastest canopies ever made?? what about cross braced canopies? from what i hear the stiletto is the lesser o the evils..

What I said was 'fastest turning', as in 'no canopy can smack you into the ground faster after a low panic turn than a Stiletto'.

Stilettos are more responsive to control input (intentional or not) than any other popular canopy (Diablos might be twitchier). I tried an Extreme FX 104 and while it dove a lot longer than my Stiletto 120 and stopped flying at a lower speed, I was not happy with how sluggish it felt - like a Stiletto 135 (two sizes bigger) at best.

When I switched from a Batwing 134 (still elliptical) to a Stiletto 120 at 600 jumps at first I had problems swooping it in a straight line.

Lots of people have had problems with this so newer designs are all less sensitive to control input - even PD's Katana takes a bit more input to get a given response.

Newer jumpers will be less likely to have problems under a more lightly tapered design (Lotus, Pilot, Sabre2, Safire2 in alphabetical order). The longer natural recovery arc of something like a Sabre 2 is also more conducive to learning swooping although good technique does not involve yanking on a front riser at some altitude.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Mar 13, 2008, 2:33 PM
Post #18 of 22 (1634 views)
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
maybe using front risers on my pattern turns rather than than toggles??

You don't want to do that.

You want to be making flat, braked turns in the pattern. That will keep your descent rate low so you don't accidentally descend in front of some one you didn't see, make precision easier, and keep the control forces down for when you begin a speed inducing landing maneuver.

Get coaching.

Start slow - symetric front risers, last 15 degrees of your turn to final, 30, 45, etc. Establish roll angle and use both front risers and harness input to arrive at your intended heading + altitude. You get more speed by keeping the canopy diving with a turn than you do just yanking on a riser and letting it recover. Your technique should not depend on yanking a riser at a given altitude because that won't work when you find yourself in the wrong place or have a different density altitude.

In reply to:
not sure, just looking for some advice here. ripping my head off is not going to chanage my mindset.. just not sure on the best way to learn is.. people have told me a few different ways... thanks for helping.

Land with a bit of speed and learn to turn during your flare. Especially with a canopy as sensitive to control input as the Stiletto. When something gets in the way you want to instinctively fly around it instead of yanking on a toggle and putting yourself into the ground at a high rate of speed.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Mar 13, 2008, 2:34 PM)


2ndgensteinke  (F License)

Mar 14, 2008, 1:40 AM
Post #19 of 22 (1582 views)
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Re: [DrewEckhardt] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

hey thanks man.. im not planning on doing this soon, but getting more opinions from people opens my mind rather than doing what you said, yanking a riser at some altitude. I have seen plenty of people get in the "corner" and freeze up. not what i want to do, thanks though
blues!Smile


ep11300  (D 26719)

Mar 18, 2008, 10:46 AM
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

I know this guy who thinks he is the coolest guy on the dropzone. Went from a SabreII 190 (blue and yellow) to a Stilleto 170 (white, blue, and pink). He is still not cool; can't play Wii either!!Sly


2ndgensteinke  (F License)

Mar 18, 2008, 12:31 PM
Post #21 of 22 (1435 views)
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Re: [ep11300] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

haha thats funny, I know this other guy. he thinks he is the shit, he went from a sabre 2 190 (purple and white) to a katana 170 (blue and white) he always gets his ass kicked on wii tennis at the dropzone by an alcoholic and a old man!Cool.... and I am the coolest person at the dropzoneSly


meteor  (D 27035)

Mar 19, 2008, 11:53 PM
Post #22 of 22 (1352 views)
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Re: [2ndgensteinke] learning steps on a stiletto [In reply to] Can't Post

This is the "OLD MAN" posting.

It has always amazed me at those who think its their "stuff" that determines whether they are cool or not. I have seen plenty of "dorks" wearing $300 sunglasses or driving Corvettes and they are still dorks!! I have also witnessed friends get "swoop-happy" when they weren't ready for it and had to visit them in the hospital or the cemetary. I am hopefull this young man will restrain his hormones and follow the sound advice that has been given on this thread. CANOPY COURSE AND 100'S IF NOT 1000'S OF JUMPS to become a swooper.

On another subject: He is only good at Wii tennis if he is above a .20 blood alcohol content!!!

I keep offering him an AA meeting list and he keeps turning me down!!

See you at the DZ this weekend, Bladam!! I'll bring the "Breathalyzer".

Fiddler



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