Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Wing Suit Flying:
Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA

 

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base200  (D 6500)

Mar 6, 2008, 8:55 PM
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Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA Can't Post

How come the USPA doesn't care about the wingsuit instructor rating? The reason I ask is that it doesn't show on the membership card along with other ratings. Why does the wingsuit examiner charge a lot of money when the truth is you can teach without this rating! Is it so easy that anyone can get it just to say they have a rating.


The111  (D 29246)

Mar 6, 2008, 9:11 PM
Post #2 of 151 (3870 views)
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Re: [base200] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Why does the wingsuit examiner charge a lot of money

Most of them (the good ones) don't.

In reply to:
the truth is you can teach without this rating

You can do a lot of things without instruction. Freedom to be stupid is an inalienable right.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 6, 2008, 9:24 PM
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

  

In reply to:
Most of them (the good ones) don't.

Really Matt? You honestly think someone that skydives full time instructs for free, and that makes them the bad ones? Crazy

In reply to:
You can do a lot of things without instruction. Freedom to be stupid is an inalienable right.

Before instructors came about, alot of people jumped wingsuits without instruction. We were far from stupid. Having instructors now allows MORE people the ability to try a wingsuit with a clear expanation of what to expect and how to fly the suit, without the fear or lack of knowledge.


base200  (D 6500)

Mar 6, 2008, 9:36 PM
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think you can take an AFF student, a tandem student, a static line student, or even coach without a rating. But anyone who flies a wingsuit can take a new wingsuit jumper up?

A few people I've talked to have indicated that becoming a wingsuit instructor is usually expensive. If there is no requirement to get a rating, why charge so much money? Why should I pay all that money when I can teach without a rating?


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 6, 2008, 9:47 PM
Post #5 of 151 (3850 views)
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Re: [base200] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I don't think you can take an AFF student, a tandem student, a static line student, or even coach without a rating. But anyone who flies a wingsuit can take a new wingsuit jumper up?

There is no law that says you have to have a rating to instruct a new skydiver on how to skydive. Have you ever been to a non USPA drop zone at all? USPA has standards and guidelines they want Instructors to teach by, same as wingsuit manufacturers.

In reply to:
A few people I've talked to have indicated that becoming a wingsuit instructor is usually expensive. If there is no requirement to get a rating, why charge so much money?

Teaching the candidate the proper way to instruct takes time. What is your time worth?


In reply to:
Why should I pay all that money when I can teach without a rating?

Have you ever heard the expression, "Sometimes you get what you pay for?"


The111  (D 29246)

Mar 6, 2008, 11:02 PM
Post #6 of 151 (3829 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Really Matt? You honestly think someone that skydives full time instructs for free, and that makes them the bad ones? Crazy

Read the wording. Good instructors don't charge "a lot" of money. As in a ridiculously high amount. As in too much.

In reply to:
Before instructors came about, alot of people jumped wingsuits without instruction. We were far from stupid. Having instructors now allows MORE people the ability to try a wingsuit with a clear expanation of what to expect and how to fly the suit, without the fear or lack of knowledge.

Now that instruction is available, it would be pretty stupid to not take advantage of that and try to figure it out on your own. Maybe not fatal or even too dangerous, but certainly not the smartest choice.


voodew1  (D 25988)

Mar 7, 2008, 3:06 AM
Post #7 of 151 (3790 views)
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Re: [base200] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh the memories this post brings up..................alost brings a tear to my eyeSmile


Heffro1  (D 28355)

Mar 7, 2008, 4:52 AM
Post #8 of 151 (3759 views)
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Re: [voodew1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

So I take it you work for free. And your time and experience is worth nothing.

Alot of people think because they have a couple of wingsuit jumps they know how to instruct FFC's.

Most of the time this leads to students that are under instructed, and more of a danger to themselves or other jumpers.

If you could get an instructor rating in 60 seconds it would be unjust to charge, the people giving the course have to take there time to teach you, and that is what you are paying for.

If anyone feels like giving up their jobs and touring the country (with no pay) let me know I have a job for you. I'm sure your point of view will change.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Mar 7, 2008, 6:59 AM
Post #9 of 151 (3726 views)
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Re: [Heffro1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
So I take it you work for free. And your time and experience is worth nothing.

Hefforino, Jason is actually a Paid AFF instructor. But back a few years ago he and others took a lot of heat for trying to establish a ,local to them, wingsuit scene so as to have some more people to fly with. Most with out WS ratings. For some it was hard to travel to the few Chief instructors for others they didn't believe in the validity of the WS instructor.

Now there is easy access to proper instruction it wasn't always so. Yes there are instructors who spend a lot of effort with candidates and give a very valuable instruction. This wasn't always so. There use to be a lot of rip offs and frauds!

Its fair to say that if you are in an out of the way area yes you have to give away some of your time to get people to join you. Is it worth it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no!


Buried  (D License)

Mar 7, 2008, 8:01 AM
Post #10 of 151 (3683 views)
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Re: [base200] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

 
<waves hand in a jedi move>
There are no wingsuit instructor ratings.

if anything is important it would more so be a coach rating.

Quote:
How come the USPA doesn't care about the wingsuit instructor rating?

How come the USPA doesn't care about a CRW rating?
How come the USPA doesn't care about a FF coach rating?
How come the USPA doesn't care about an organizer rating?


In reply to:
Oh the memories this post brings up..................alost brings a tear to my eyeSmile

LaughTongue


And yes, most WS 'instructors' dont charge at the present time. At times they do receive a organizer slot from the dz though... so i guess either way free jump.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 7, 2008, 8:22 AM
Post #11 of 151 (3661 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

  

In reply to:
Good instructors don't charge "a lot" of money. As in a ridiculously high amount. As in too much.


Reread his wording. He is talking about GETTING an rating, as in BMI or PFI. The Instructor course has alot of material to cover and is far more lengthly then just teaching someone how to fly a wingsuit.

as Jason's tear weeps down his face of yesteryear, when unqualified people were given the rating over a beer at the bar.......


The111  (D 29246)

Mar 7, 2008, 11:35 AM
Post #12 of 151 (3623 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
as Jason's tear weeps down his face of yesteryear, when unqualified people were given the rating over a beer at the bar.......

So that doesn't happen anymore? Am I a year too late? Wink


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Mar 7, 2008, 12:44 PM
Post #13 of 151 (3597 views)
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Re: [The111] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
as Jason's tear weeps down his face of yesteryear, when unqualified people were given the rating over a beer at the bar.......

So that doesn't happen anymore? Am I a year too late? Wink

Having a rating tossed at you isn't a crime, not then nor now BTW.

The crime was when some of these same clowns turned around and bad mouthed the unrated as unsafe and ignorant and how they were so much more equipped to do the instruction because ..........WTF?!?
Very few of them did anything to promote wingsuits or build a local scene anyway.

Which leads us to today and what the USPA thinks of the WS instructor.............. probably something along the lines of WTF?!?


kallend  (D 23151)

Mar 7, 2008, 1:06 PM
Post #14 of 151 (3587 views)
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Re: [Buried] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
<waves hand in a jedi move>
There are no wingsuit instructor ratings.

Nor "examiners". Much as I like and respect the folks who took courses and were given the titles, it's not a whole lot different than getting degree in engineering from "Wile E. Coyote's Acme Engineering College" in terms of official certification by a recognized national organization.


fromhell  (C 46829)

Mar 7, 2008, 11:11 PM
Post #15 of 151 (3519 views)
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Re: [Heffro1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

Wingsuit instructor rating? or aff rating Wink


voodew1  (D 25988)

Mar 8, 2008, 2:13 PM
Post #16 of 151 (3442 views)
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Re: [Heffro1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
If anyone feels like giving up their jobs and touring the country (with no pay) let me know I have a job for you. I'm sure your point of view will change.


I hear this kind of thing alot ................... it was your choice and you seem to be happy with it............I seem to be happy skydiving on the weekends, owning my own business, having a house, wife, dog, new vehicles etc.................I made that choice.
You don't hear me bitching about having to get up every morning and going to work (and not getting fucked up every night).............so stop bitching and change careers or just keep on doing what makes you happy, but don't try to be the poor skydiving bum who gets taken advantage of - your choice!

You don't see my name and face in the profile section of the parachutist either............and by the way I personally think they should have used the picture of your blood red eyes after that flat spinSly


base200  (D 6500)

Mar 8, 2008, 5:46 PM
Post #17 of 151 (3417 views)
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Re: [voodew1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm sorry to bring this up, but somebody has to. It seems like the wingsuit instructor system is costing people a fair amount of money when the rating isn't even worth a coach rating. The people getting a BMI or PFI usually pay a lot of money, and then they turn around and expect a student to at least pay their slot or provide other compensation--all for a rating that doesn't seem to really matter. It just seems people are getting ripped off. Bottom line is there really isn't a wingsuit rating and the people who take them seriously are usually the people who can't get more difficult ratings like AFF. If you got your wingsuit rating after you got your AFF rating, you probably feel like you wasted your money.


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Mar 8, 2008, 6:39 PM
Post #18 of 151 (3401 views)
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Re: [base200] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

 What does a WS instructor rating cost now days? I remember when it was 300 bucks and a three day comprehensive program for some and a gimme for others depending on the situation.

Although if you are giving it away that is what its worth, a gimme.


Premier DSE  (D 29060)
Moderator
Mar 8, 2008, 7:58 PM
Post #19 of 151 (3385 views)
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Re: [base200] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you suppose there may come a time when the USPA and other organizations recognize wingsuiting as a specialized discipline that requires some form of certificated instructional program?
Obviously wouldn't relate to current BMI/PFI's, but if the manufacturers can show consistently successful self-regulation over a period of time, do you feel it might make it easier for wingsuiting to be accepted as a discipline in parent organizations?
Tandem manufacturers maintained their own rating system for a while, didn't they?


DesertDevil  (D 6323)

Mar 8, 2008, 7:59 PM
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Re: [VectorBoy] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

It cost me $300 for BMI and $225 for PFI. If you ask me if it was worth it, I would say yes. I can get discounts on suits. I never charge anyone to teach. Why doesn't USPA recognize it? USPA is changing their regulations this October, so maybe things will change. But if you get more ratings, you have to pay more money . . . I don't know if it would be a good or bad thing if USPA did recognize the wingsuit rating. I was paying $60/year for my instructor rating in the United States Hangglide and Paraglide club. Last August it went up to $280/year! So if we keep talking about adding more ratings to USPA, we're opening the door for these people to really rip us off! What is harder to get than a rating is to practice and get good and prove that you're good. People will see that.


(This post was edited by DesertDevil on Mar 8, 2008, 10:00 PM)


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 8, 2008, 8:47 PM
Post #21 of 151 (3370 views)
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Re: [voodew1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I dont think Jeff if bitching about his job here.

How would you feel if somebody came to the place you work and started doing your job for free as a hobby?


voodew1  (D 25988)

Mar 9, 2008, 3:24 AM
Post #22 of 151 (3332 views)
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Re: [bodypilot1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
How would you feel if somebody came to the place you work and started doing your job for free as a hobby?

First off only a retard would want to do what I do as a hobby......skydiving well its fun so that is a little different
But if he could and it was his hobby.........I would pay would pay him and put his ass on call so I could travel around and skydive.

And skydiving is a choice........if you can make a living skydiving good for those who can, but if you make that choice don't cry when it rains or when you see me eating a big old steak. Skydiving as a job has some really nice perks......you don't have to be 'overly' professional, noboby cares if you say fuck alot, and lets not forget its really fun......................my job well not so much but it has lots of other benefits
1. Chicks really dig guys who fix server room air conditioning, believe it or not even more then skydivers


(This post was edited by voodew1 on Mar 9, 2008, 3:37 AM)


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Mar 9, 2008, 9:54 AM
Post #23 of 151 (3290 views)
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Re: [DSE] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you suppose there may come a time when the USPA and other organizations recognize wingsuiting as a specialized discipline that requires some form of certificated instructional program?

I'm surprized its gone on this long. Gary Peek's post about solutions and training methods to problems that don't exist pretty much sums it up.

For example learning a proper straight down the tube Free fly head down is much harder to learn than anything in wingsuits. Coaching is available but not mandatory.

The proper sequence to deal with a CReW wrap or entanglement is much more demanding than anything you have to deal with in wingsuits. No instructors required or available, just mentors.

In the case of new CReW, FF or wingsuit students you are still talking about skydivers with some experience who can judge their exposure better than someone fresh off the street to take an AFF course or a tandem jump.


bodypilot1  (D 16037)

Mar 9, 2008, 8:05 PM
Post #24 of 151 (3219 views)
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Re: [voodew1] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

 
In reply to:
don't cry when it rains or when you see me eating a big old steak.

Ummm, ok.........WinkLaugh

In reply to:
Chicks really dig guys who fix server room air conditioning, believe it or not even more then skydivers

Only the fat chicks, because they are over heated.....Tongue


leroydb  (D 25743)

Mar 10, 2008, 5:31 AM
Post #25 of 151 (3155 views)
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Re: [DesertDevil] Wingsuit Instructor Rating and USPA [In reply to] Can't Post

self regulation has worked for skydiving in general, lets keep wingsuiting this way... KISS


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