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ATMONAUTI

 

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Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Mar 3, 2008, 6:04 AM
Post #26 of 166 (2156 views)
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Mciocca wrote :
Quote:
The point was to have a section under INSTRUCTORS to assist and shed light on safe Atmo progression.

Why dont you guys go onto another forum you can label LETS TRASH ATMONAUTI.

This section is for serious folk who take care of the safety of their fellow jumpers in the community.

This goes out to all of you who are once again using this forum to destabalise and defame, If you dont have something valuable to add specific to safety... MOVE TO ANOTHER FORUM.


If you expected to post here on dropzone.com , in any of the forums, in the way that you have, and not hear from someone who disagreed with your point of view then you are being quite naive. Your responses have actually been quite similar to others who have tried to present this topic ,especially when challenged about the gross inaccuracies and hype in the way that it is presented. Most people read the information and don't even bother responding to it much in the same way they view junk e-mail and don't respond to it. If there was a genuine interest in this subject, there would be more people asking about it and hence more threads. However, the manner in which it is presented is it's biggest hurdle. If you want people to take this topic seriously, those who espouse it need to try another approach as the current one comes across as fanatical and is full of inaccurate aerodynamic principals and in some cases made up words that destroy what little credibility it has even further.



VIN wrote:
Quote:
You would try to convince skydivers of South Africa that, since this year, they will precties Atmonauti as separate discipline (they will do Atmonauti in the Nationals) and they will teach to beginners a new kind of progression in skydiving, with licences, and it's called Atmonauti.

Thats great. But lets be honest here, how many skydivers are there in SA? And of those skydivers, how many are even at a level where they could participate in Atmo (those are rhetorical questions)? More importantly, do you really think people are going to seek out a license to freefly in a certain orientation? Before you go on about how it isn't freefly, stop and think what the average skydiver who sees this is going to think and by average I mean majority of skydivers out there. In some countries, it is clear why they have the stringent guidelines that they do for their skydiving community( SA being one of them) in their progression. However, outside of that, the rest of the world, who may or may not have similar restrictions, is simply going to DO it regardless if there is a license or not being handed out by a governing body or in the parking lot. I refer you to the last sentence in my reply to Marco above for feedback on how to go about this correctly.


kaerodyne

Mar 3, 2008, 6:16 AM
Post #27 of 166 (2156 views)
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
You would try to convince skydivers of South Africa that, since this year, they will precties Atmonauti as separate discipline (they will do Atmonauti in the Nationals) and they will teach to beginners a new kind of progression in skydiving, with licences, and it's called Atmonauti. Wink

Your partly correct in this statement, the Sports Skydivers Association (SSA) has voted to include this as a supported and recognized discipline, the NSTO has worked and approved the rules and safety and progression. However the discipline still needs to get the green light at the annual AGM, where it needs to be approved by the general membership and also needs member to head up the SSA division of this discipline. And that is not always an easy task, trust me dz.com is a walk in the park compared to the old geezers at the AGM

Now without getting into the thick of it with regards to what and who and why etc. I think progression in the sport is needed, no matter of it's a old discipline or a new concept. It would be good to give this it's fair shot at being something and if it fades and becomes a great idea of the few, then so be it.

Here is a mail sent by Marco to the general SA listserve "Hi all skydivers and skyflyers alike,

SA Skydiving has reached a new milestone.

After Atmonautis formal introduction into South African skydiving in January 2007, and after receiving Mark Bs (NSTO) full support from a safety and training perspective (specific to Atmonauti, and the Atmo MOPs CAT1/2/3/4 ratings, Coach ratings, B/C/D licenses) a meeting was requested with the SSA, which the SSA gladly accommodated, and convened on the 13th February 2008.

The SSA was asked to support this as a discipline in its own right, as it differs vastly from AE.

The SSA agreed to support this as a separate discipline and will vote as such at the coming AGM.

The SSA committee advised on the following:

Have enough supporters (and list of active Atmonauts currently a few short of 100) at the AGM to vote for the incorporation of Atmo;

Ensure that those who want to stand for the Atmo committee attend the AGM;

Ensure that the committee is made up of at least 3 members and not more than 50% from the same DZ;

Liaise with the Wing Suit committee.

The draft category program/ratings procedures document has been approved in principle by the NSTO and, once checked and finalised, will be uploaded onto the PASA website, and incorporated into the updated MOP?s document at the next round of printing.

The SSA voted unanimously to support Atmonauti as a separate discipline and thanked myself and all the Atmonuats for all the hard work and preparation.

Congratulations all round, and a big thank you to Marco Tiezzi, Mark B (NSTO), Neeve (PASA), friends and instructors on the ground, active Atmonauts, boogie operators, and the SSA for this opportunity and ongoing support!


Kind regards,

Marco Ciocca - AIR 005/2112"


kaerodyne

Mar 3, 2008, 6:21 AM
Post #28 of 166 (2154 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Thats great. But lets be honest here, how many skydivers are there in SA? And of those skydivers, how many are even at a level where they could participate in Atmo (those are rhetorical questions)?

Scott there are on average 600_ licensed skydivers is SA per year, it fluctuates year on year, so my number could be a little off.

Having jumped in SA for 9 yrs, I can tell you that any new discipline is hard to get off the ground, and it takes a dedicated and driven individual to make it happen, much like Tonto and Taya did with wingsuits. But then again that was a tangible idea.

Marco has the right backing and all that stops him now is the AGM, if he cannot get the required members to stand and be committee members in the SSA for it, then it will be a idea with no PASA backing. Much like FreeFlying was years ago.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Mar 3, 2008, 7:11 AM
Post #29 of 166 (2142 views)
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Re: [kaerodyne] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Van, remind me to explain what rhetorical means when I see you in a few daysTongueWink


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 3, 2008, 8:14 AM
Post #30 of 166 (2126 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Really? You think you're an "Instructor"? Right. Who issues your rating?

I resent you using this Instructors forum to push you're agenda. Keep load organizing, and coaching in a forum where it belongs. I think this forum really needs to be used to spread information to those involved in basic and entry level skydiving instruction, not advanced coaching. That's what topical forums are for. Get the mods to create an "Atmo" forum if you need, but stop creating more noise here.


(This post was edited by diablopilot on Mar 3, 2008, 8:21 AM)


hookitt  (D License)

Mar 3, 2008, 3:07 PM
Post #31 of 166 (2075 views)
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Do you have, date, magazines, events, video, foto, frame, referenced documents?
Let me know, please.

You see, you only believe what's in print.

I've got an AD number in the 20s and ya know what? Who cares? I got it because it was a requirement to enter a contest. That statement was made only reference time in the sport.

Many things were done before the name was coined and Autmonauti is no exception.

I among a large group of people learned to do an Ollie on a skateboard a year or 2 before the move was invented. Some of us skydivers Might have even flown at an angle before Autmonauti was invented as well ... but who really knows. Wink

Believe what you wish, that's fine but it does sound like you do take it far too seriously.

Good luck.


(This post was edited by hookitt on Mar 3, 2008, 3:08 PM)


Vins

Mar 4, 2008, 6:48 AM
Post #32 of 166 (2011 views)
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Re: [hookitt] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

I appreciate your ask "who cares". In fact I think there is in the world only a man who cares about the discover of angled flight: Marco Tiezzi that affirm to be the inventor. Ok, it could be not true, but this is a sufficient reason for Marco, Gi and friends to ask "who did"?

It's only a simple question that requires a simple answer. Why to answer with the invention of the weel or skateboard? Who really cares?

Regarding the angle, do you know who did? Tell me, please. Don't you know? Thanks for your intersting.

Can you debate about the document I share? Yes? I'll glide to debate.
You can't? Let's show the history.

Am I too serious for you? I'm sorry, I'll try to change myself.

TongueCrazySmile

Is it ok?


(This post was edited by Vins on Mar 4, 2008, 7:45 AM)


hookitt  (D License)

Mar 4, 2008, 8:07 AM
Post #33 of 166 (1981 views)
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

hahaha... ok man.

Who popularized it versus who was doing it before it was named. That is the debate which I'm not interested in.

I can appreciate your enthusiasm but my concern over the history is pretty slim. Good luck with your quest... seriously.


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 10:04 AM
Post #34 of 166 (1960 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Thats great. But lets be honest here, how many skydivers are there in SA? And of those skydivers, how many arsuitere even at a level where they could participate in Atmo
In reply to:
Lou, dont underestimate the skills and talent in South Africa, however small the community. Our swoopers are doing great on the world scene, our wingsuiters are on the world records and attempts, and in atmo we're one of the strongest nations adopting the discipline, and are very competitive pretty much in most other disciplines.

A South African is currently one of a handful in the world currently proficient at flying atmo feet first and has been very much involved at developing the discipline further.

3 South Africans are currently on the Atmo World Team and South Africa was represented/competed at the 2007 Atmo Champs.

The point of this Forum however is SAFETY.

I dont care for defamatory comments.

Ultimately its the safe atmo progression I'm/we're seeking.


(This post was edited by mciocca on Mar 4, 2008, 10:23 AM)


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 10:19 AM
Post #35 of 166 (1948 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
I resent you using this Instructors forum to push you're agenda.
This is a forum for instructors in specific fields of interest - to exchange ideas and discuss the progress of our sport as a whole.

The fact that you "resent" the growth of Atmonauti as an area of interest and "resent" the related progression program is an issue you're gonna have to deal with in your own time bro.

I dont care for your defamatory comments. Keep posting them if it tickles you Wink

Hope to meet you around a dz sumtime in the future tho... Tongue


DJL  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 11:00 AM
Post #36 of 166 (1949 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey, what does this mean:

Quote:
Atmonauti, due to the reduced air speeds, is a SOCIAL discipline, which is accessible to the masses.


(This post was edited by DJL on Mar 4, 2008, 11:00 AM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2008, 11:21 AM
Post #37 of 166 (1942 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
our wingsuiters are on the world records and attempts

AHEM....really, I wonder WHO it could be that organizes and makes those events possible?CrazyLaugh



Apparently the word "rhetorical" isn't used or understood in SALaugh


The way this and the other thread is going I can see that continuing this line of discussion is like trying to teach a hog to read a wrist watch.Crazy


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 12:13 PM
Post #38 of 166 (1931 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Like Ive told you on other forums, you have nothing positive to add, other than what seems to come naturally to you...insult.

Lou, you seriously need to watch that mouth of yours bro...and stop insulting your piers.


(This post was edited by mciocca on Mar 4, 2008, 12:28 PM)


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 12:26 PM
Post #39 of 166 (1925 views)
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Re: [DJL] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Hey, what does this mean:

Atmonauti, due to the reduced air speeds, is a SOCIAL discipline, which is accessible to the masses.

In reply to:
It refers to the reduced freefall rates (and reduced relative air "speed" on the body), and the ease with which the basics of atmo are learnt for 2 reasons:

1) Increased freefall time (that does not come cheap to many) and thus extended learning time,

2) Not having to deal with high speed relative wind (as in freeflying) which requires time and maturity to grasp.

Atmo is also bringing different disciplines together - freeflying, wingsuiting, fs etc and my personal experience has been the awesome jumps with buddies i traditionally greeted on the ground but never jumped with because of their fear of the higher speeds associated with freeflying. For the first time i've had the privelage of doing large atmo formations with all of these unique individuals, in the same skydive.

Its for this reason that i propose atmo to be a social discipline.


(This post was edited by mciocca on Mar 4, 2008, 12:31 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 4, 2008, 12:41 PM
Post #40 of 166 (1911 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the name of pete is "relative gravitational wind"


ZeG  (A License)

Mar 4, 2008, 12:44 PM
Post #41 of 166 (1919 views)
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Re: [labrys] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmonauti

Quote:
Atmonauti (also known as angled flight) is a skydiving term for a type of freeflying jump invented by JP Furnari when he fell in love with Andy Newell and both decided to go toward the sky. On Atmonauti jumps, the participants fly without rig because they don't need it.
Haha hilarious, whoever typed that.Laugh


Edit: Can someone please explain to a newbie, what exactly atmonauti is in simple terms without all the technical trara made up "scientific sounding" terms? I still don't get what's so different from a tracking dive?


(This post was edited by ZeG on Mar 4, 2008, 12:53 PM)


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 12:55 PM
Post #42 of 166 (1913 views)
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Re: [labrys] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What is the name of pete is "relative gravitational wind"

In reply to:
Its a term i use to discribe the relative wind/air on our bodies when in freefall "down" the tube. Smile

The relative wind in atmo is at the selected angle of flight, with the sensation of it striking the head first.


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 4, 2008, 1:25 PM
Post #43 of 166 (1905 views)
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Re: [ZeG] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Heya ZeG

Check out www.atmonauti.com

The overriding principle is the exploration of human flight utilising the body as an airfoil to generate lift.

The atmonaut, due to the lack of a propulsion system, utilises (sacrificing altitude) an angle in search of relative wind with the sensation of this relative wind striking the head and travelling over the human airfoil, generating lift.

The form is completely unlike tracking.

The freefall speeds are reduced and freefall times are greatly increased. It is common to reach as little as 75mph - 110mph in atmo, which is slower even than fs, and significantly slower than freeflying.

It is however not a technique used only in the search of lift, but is used in a number of different body positions, with transitions to and from these body positions in 3 axis, both head first and feet first.

It is common to fly large linked 3d formations, turn points in ARW (Atmo Relative Work), carve, fly feet first etc.

It is common to exit 1,5 miles before the dz, and large distances can be covered horizontally.

Its not difficult to grasp with reduced learning times, but also offers challenging moves and body positions if you're looking for a challenge.


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
Moderator
Mar 4, 2008, 8:03 PM
Post #44 of 166 (1852 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Like Ive told you on other forums, you have nothing positive to add, other than what seems to come naturally to you...insult.

On the contrary, I and a few others have attempted to actually help you by bringing to your attention how your own words are a detriment to what you are trying to do. I told you how to go about this correctly a few posts above. No one in this or the other thread has insulted anyone. I think you are taking the feedback people are giving you on this topic personally as I see no other way you could conclude you have been insulted in any way. If you didn't want to hear the truth you shouldn't have raised the subject in the first place. Did you honestly expect no one to point out the gross inaccuracies of your statements and simply go along with statements that contradict basic aerodynamics on a forum where pilots and skydivers post?


Quote:
Lou, you seriously need to watch that mouth of yours bro...and stop insulting your piers

What have I said that I should watch out for exactly and who have I insulted? If what has been said here has offended you I would hate to see how you would interpret regular DZ talk amongst skydivers.


labrys  (D 29848)

Mar 4, 2008, 8:26 PM
Post #45 of 166 (1844 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Its a term i use to discribe the relative wind/air on our bodies when in freefall "down" the tube.

The relative wind in atmo is at the selected angle of flight, with the sensation of it striking the head first.

Have you taken this concept to Burning Man?

I have a feeling it would thrive there.


Fledgling  (D 28490)

Mar 4, 2008, 8:30 PM
Post #46 of 166 (1844 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
The freefall speeds are reduced and freefall times are greatly increased. It is common to reach as little as 75mph
I find this very difficult to believe. Do you have proof that you can sustain a fall rate of 75mph over the course of an entire jump?


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 5, 2008, 8:14 AM
Post #47 of 166 (1779 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Hi, I would say that over the course of an entire jump 90mph is more the norm, however it has been documented (protracks/neptunes etc) that 75/85 mph are achieved briefly in certain sectors of the skydive.


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 5, 2008, 8:17 AM
Post #48 of 166 (1776 views)
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Re: [labrys] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Burning man wouldn't let me leave bro.. I've done some bad stuff in my life Tongue


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 5, 2008, 8:21 AM
Post #49 of 166 (1772 views)
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Re: [Fledgling] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Gigliola in "Project Evolution" in 2002,
flew atmo with an average vertical speed of 140 km/h > 87 mph. It must be noted however that most of these speeds are not max efficiency speeds as atmo is done on "half breaks" so to speak to make speeding up and slowing down in relation to formations possible. Thus on a maxed out atmo flight average ff speeds of less than 87mph should be quite attainable.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 5, 2008, 12:54 PM
Post #50 of 166 (1727 views)
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Re: [ryoder] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

looks like tracking to me :)


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