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mciocca  (C License)

Mar 1, 2008, 1:14 AM
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ATMONAUTI Can't Post

Atmonauti Instructionals/Ratings:

Atmonauti, unlike traditional free-fall - including tracking and flocking - (that utilises the relative gravitational wind from “below” to achieve a multitude of stable body positions at terminal velocity) is the term given to the technique that intentionally utilises lift to compensate for the effect of gravity, in order to achieve relative wind (or a custom “tube”) at an angle of between 10deg – 65deg, where after the atmonaut (atmosphere navigator) introduces a multitude of three dimensional body positions and transitions, while “falling” at greatly reduced speeds (70mph – 110mph), resulting in extended free-fall time and increased safety.

Atmonauti, due to the reduced air speeds, is a SOCIAL discipline, which is accessible to the masses.

Atmonauti incorporates Frontmonauti, Backmonauti, Footmonauti, and Inverted Footmonauti, with the addition of Gamemonauti, Freestyle and Atmo Relative Work.

The atmonauti instructor is the navigator in the group jumps, is capable of instructing single jumpers and/or groups of jumpers at ground-school level specific to safety, technique, navigation, slot positioning and break-off etc. and is furthermore responsible to fly as base navigator in the formation, while communicating body position improvements and general flight path direction and break-off.

It will be necessary that the instructors are involved in the management of the activity at the centres and be responsible (along with wingsuit instructors) for all activities different from vertical fall, specific to flight planning.

The logical progression of skills is:

1. understanding the concept of flight vs. fall,
2. understanding the concept of no-fly zones and flying on “level”,
3. “flying” the tube (frontmonauti and backmonauti),
4. adjusting speeds,
5. adjusting levels,
6. rotating around two of the three axes,
7. transitions into the various body positions,
8. break-off direction and altitudes.

As soon as a student has successfully completed ISP progression, such a student can choose to progress to Atmonauti.


2 CATEGORY TESTS AND REQUIREMENTS

“A” license jumpers may commence a cat II and cat III atmonauti progression course (including instructional ground schooling) and obtain the brevet (international license) of atmonauti FRONTMONAUTA and BACKMONAUTA with one on one instructionals with a recognised Atmonauti Instructor, where after such brevets will allow the candidate to participate in CAT II and CAT III tests in Atmonauti.

“B”, “C” and “D” license jumpers are free to participate in larger instructional group formations after having received instructional ground schooling from a recognised Atmonauti Instructor, in accordance with their relative experience levels. One on one instructionals are not obligatory but highly recommended.

Atmonauti Qualifications/Licenses will be divided into 4 parts:

1.a Qualification of Frontmonauti (international brevet/license)

- have passed a theory exam on the basic Frontmonauti rules and techniques.
- have passed a test that consists of performing a flight with the instructor who, during the flight, will perform changes of speed, of angle and of trajectory.
- the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to always remain at a constant distance in relation to the instructor, and never be in the “no fly zones”.

- have passed practice jumps that consists of being able to synchronize with the formation and remain at a constant distance, and on level with it, for the duration of the flight, while never going into the “no-fly zone”.
- have shown the ability to correctly separate in frontmonauti at break off.
- to execute the above test correctly on three consecutive flights.

1.b CAT II Qualification

- have successfully passed Frontmonauti brevet/license requirements (see above).
- have passed a test of exiting the aircraft 1 second after the instructor, taking a stable dock from the fly-zone within 10 seconds, holding the dock for 5 seconds, releasing and crossing over the instructor to the opposite side, taking a stable dock and holding the dock for 5 seconds.

Once the Atmo CAT II is obtained, the candidate will be free to participate in large atmo groups utilising the Frontmonauti body position exclusively.

2.a Qualification of Backmonauti (international brevet/license)

- have passed a theory exam on the basic Backmonauti rules and techniques.
- have passed a test that consists of performing a flight with the instructor who, during the flight, will perform changes of speed, of angle and of trajectory.
- the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to always remain at a constant distance in relation to the instructor, and never be in the “no fly zones”.

- have passed practice jumps that consists of being able to synchronize with the formation and remain at a constant distance, and on level with it, for the duration of the flight, while never going into the “no-fly zone”.
- have shown the ability to correctly separate in backmonauti at break off.
- to execute the above test correctly on three consecutive flights.

2.b CAT III Qualification

- have successfully passed Backmonauti brevet/license requirements (see above).
- have passed a test of exiting the aircraft 1 second prior to the instructor, taking a stable dock from the fly-zone within 10 seconds, holding the dock for 5 seconds, releasing and sliding under the instructor to the opposite side, taking a stable dock and holding the dock for 5 seconds.

Once the Atmo CAT III is obtained, the candidate will be free to participate in large atmo groups utilising the Frontmonauti and Backmonauti body positions, including transitions.

3.a Qualification of Flight Navigator

The navigator qualification allows the navigator to navigate group atmo loads of recognised CAT II and CAT III atmonauts. This qualification is not an Instructor qualification.

- must pass a theory exam on Atmonauti Navigation rules and techniques.
- Must exit the aircraft stable, and maintain a stable and consistent frontmonauti body position.
- the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to fly and maintain a safe and correct flight path.

3.b Qualification of INSTRUCTOR / MASTER NAVIGATOR (A.I.R. RATING)

The atmonauti instructor is the navigator on the INSTRUCTIONAL group jumps, and is capable of instructing single jumpers and/or groups of jumpers at ground-school level specific to safety, technique, navigation, slot positioning and break-off etc.

The instructor is qualified of flying as base navigator in Instructional Formations, while communicating body position improvements and general flight path direction.

The candidate should know perfectly all the rules specific to Atmonauti, as well as general club rules, and general knowledge of the MOP’s and above all he should be able to explain them in an easy and correct manner.

For this reason a JM rating is integral for such an instructor rating.

The Instructor / Master Navigator qualification is obtainable after:

- Having matured his/her experience in atmonauti, and holds a valid PASA CAT II and CAT !!! in Atmonauti.
- Having acquired the technique and philosophy of the atmonauti discipline and is capable of communicating such information in a simple and understandable fashion.
- Have passed an Atmonauti Instructor Evaluation Test that consists:

ß exiting the plane a second after the instructor
ß performing a frontmonauti hand grip on his right within 10 seconds from the exit
ß flying the grip perfectly for 5 seconds
ß leaving the grip and passing above the instructor at not more than a meter, passing to his left and performing a hand grip on the left hand of the instructor
ß flying the grip perfectly for 5 seconds
ß leaving the grip and performing a transition to backmonauti
ß performing a grip in backmonauti on the left hand of the instructor
ß flying it perfectly for 5 seconds
ß leaving the grip, while remaining in backmonauti and passing under the instructor to the right side of the instructor, and performing a grip on the right hand of the instructor
ß flying the grip perfectly for 5 seconds

- have passed an oral exam on the atmonauti technique, and have the necessary knowledge required for the instructor rating, specific to organising large formations (instructionals, planning the formations, break-off etc)

- have passed an evaluation practice test that consists in organizing an atmonauti group jump including verbal instructionals, preparation on the ground (analysis of the conditions and parameters), flight planning, briefing, and debriefing all the phases of the flight.

Once passed these tests the candidate will receive an Atmonauti Instructor Rating / Atmonauta Master Navigator Rating and can start the activity of Instructor and organizer of instructional flight groups.

It will be necessary that the instructors are involved in the management of the activity at the DZ’s and be responsible (along with wingsuit instructors) for all activities different from vertical fall, specific to flight planning (flight patterns).

4.a Qualification of Footmonauti (international brevet/license)

- have passed a theory exam on the basic Footmonauti rules and techniques.
- have passed a test that consists of performing a flight with the instructor who, during the flight, will perform changes of speed, of angle and of trajectory.
- the candidate will have to demonstrate the ability to always remain at a constant distance in relation to the instructor, and never be in the “no fly zones”.

- have passed practice jumps that consists of being able to synchronize with the formation and remain at a constant distance, and on level with it, for the duration of the flight, while never going into the “no-fly zone”.
- have shown the ability to correctly separate in footmonauti at break off.
- to execute the above test correctly on three consecutive flights.

4.b CAT IIII Qualification

- have successfully passed Footmonauti brevet/license requirements (see above).
- have passed a test of exiting the aircraft 1 second prior/after the instructor, taking a stable spock from the fly-zone within 10 seconds, holding the spock for 5 seconds, releasing and sliding under/over the instructor to the opposite side, taking a stable spock and holding the spock for 5 seconds.

Once the Atmo CAT IIII is obtained, the candidate will be free to participate in large atmo groups utilising the Frontmonauti, Backmonauti and Footmonauti body positions, including transitions.


3 GROUP LOADS

Groups from 2 – 3 jumpers will break off at an altitude of 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator.

Groups from 4 – 7 jumpers will break off in two phases, with 4 jumpers breaking off at 5000 feet AGL and the remaining jumpers breaking off at 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator.

Groups from 8 – 11 jumpers will break off in three phases, with 4 jumpers breaking off at 5500 feet AGL, 4 jumpers breaking off at 5000 feet AGL, and the remaining jumpers breaking off at 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator.

Groups from 12 – 15 jumpers will break off in four phases, with 4 jumpers breaking off at 6000 feet AGL, 4 jumpers breaking off at 5500 feet AGL, 4 jumpers breaking off at 5000 feet AGL, and the remaining jumpers breaking off at 4500 feet AGL, in accordance with the break off pattern as briefed by the instructor/navigator.

Minimum exit altitude for atmonauti jumps is 7000 feet AGL.
Minimum exit altitude for atmonauti groups is 9000 feet AGL.


4 FLIGHT PATTERNS

Flight patterns are in accordance with aircraft exit patterns as briefed by the instructor/senior navigator, but whereby in general it is important to note that experienced navigator groups exit first and whereby inexperienced solo jumpers/groups will exit last (excluding wingsuit jumpers).

In general the atmonauti groups fly at minimum 45 deg to run-in so as to fly away from, and create separation to, freefall jumpers exiting closer to the dz.

In the event that more than one atmo group is present on the aircraft, the first group will exit at 45 deg to right and the second group 45 deg to the left and third group 45 deg to right (as with first group) and so on.

Inexperienced groups exiting last should be aware that a flight pattern of 130 deg might be required in order to avoid flying away from the recommended landing area. Attention should be paid to the direction of the preceding atmo loads to avoid opening close to such preceding groups.


5 EQUIPMENT

As per AE

6 LICENSES

ß Atmonauti B license requirements:

As per Pasa MOP’s (section 2), including CAT II, CATIII and Flight Navigator qualification in Atmonauti - signed off by a recognised Atmonauti Instructor.

ß Atmonauti C license requirements:

As per Pasa MOP’s (section 2), including Instructor/Master Navigator qualification in Atmonauti - signed off by a recognised Atmonauti Instructor.

ß Atmonauti D license requirements:

As per Pasa MOP’s (section 2), including CAT IIII qualification in Atmonauti - signed off by a recognised Atmonauti Instructor.


(This post was edited by mciocca on Mar 1, 2008, 1:19 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 1, 2008, 7:13 AM
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

I resent you using this forum to push your personal agenda.


JustChuteMeNow

Mar 1, 2008, 7:51 AM
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Atmonauti Instructionals/Ratings:

I found your post interesting but I don't understand the purpose of your post. Are these proposed requirements or are these actual requirements within the atmonauti community?


pilotdave  (D License)

Mar 1, 2008, 8:55 AM
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
(that utilises the relative gravitational wind from “below” to achieve a multitude of stable body positions at terminal velocity) is the term given to the technique that intentionally utilises lift to compensate for the effect of gravity, in order to achieve relative wind (or a custom “tube”) at an angle of between 10deg – 65deg, where after the atmonaut (atmosphere navigator) introduces a multitude of three dimensional body positions and transitions, while “falling” at greatly reduced speeds (70mph – 110mph), resulting in extended free-fall time and increased safety.

Adorable!

Dave


aironscott

Mar 1, 2008, 9:39 AM
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

So is this some catchy new name for, um, skydiving?


Vins

Mar 1, 2008, 1:17 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Since 2000, when the angled flight was presented for the first time by the inventor Marco Tiezzi, many people had claimed that other people was the inventors. Today this technique knows several definition and more than one father, like JP Furnari e.g.

Today the angled flight are promoted in very different way, unfortunately with many mistakes about safety.

For this reason Marco Ciocca has opened this discussion, in order to promote and diffuse Atmonauti in the ONLY right way, how Tiezzi teachs and as in the past he tached to many professionals.

This forum is the most important and read forum in the world and it's right that, who have heard a lot of imprecisions, can find here the explenation of the right way to do Atmonauti (angled flight) directly from Tiezzi and the Atmonauti-Instructors.

Are you who invented the angled flght?
Or do you know who did?
Let's know.

If not, let's share and diffuse the passion and love that many people in the world have for your favourite sport.


(This post was edited by Vins on Mar 1, 2008, 1:36 PM)


Vins

Mar 1, 2008, 1:50 PM
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

I would post an importan, the most important, argument about safety in angled flight, the first thing that Tiezzi teach to biginners.

This argument is important, overall, considering that Atmonauti are confused with tracking jumps.

In a traditional tracking Jump the look is forward, but in Atmonauti is toward the ground. Is important to know this to mantain the awareness of direction.

--------------------

Basic Rule of the Atmonaut Fly - THE DIRECTION

The Atmonaut fly implies navigations with lots of horizontal travels, therefore the activity of the atmonauti is to be considered more similar to the one done by the airplane pilots during all their phases. For this reason is important that the complete formation of the atmonauti must be very similar to the one of the pilots, including the research of the precision that they have, in respecting rules and parameters.
The most important parameter in the Atmo flights is indeed the DIRECTION , strictly connected with the SAFETY.
Before every flight, a "flight plan" must be anticipate, coordinated with : the dropping system from the plane , wind condition at each altitude, the visibility, and with eventual other groups navigating on the same plane.
The knowledge and the experience of the atmonauti is particularly keen on the research of the precision as a fundamental condition to guarantee at maximum the own safety and of the other groups.
At this point I want to highlight to everyone that for the first time get in touch with this new technique, on a very important factor that is necessary to know:
Since it has been taught in the AFF, and in the normal tracking jumps that have always been done (where you follow a leader or rabbit), the track is performed looking in front in the direction towards you are going! In the atmonauti fly , flying in front, the body assume an angle of attack with the head placed towards the ground and the visual looking backwards. This creates a prospective of the visual that is upside down (sky down and earth up) and a vision of the field exactly OPPOSITE of the direction where we are going. And more angles of asset we assume, more opposite and far will be in prospective the visual of the ground.

This condition, especially for the beginners, can create a bit of difficulties on orienteering, in particular if you are not informed on this problematic, and if you don't take other visual points of reference in order to guarantee the respect of the direction.
Is important to remember the dangers of groups that can involuntary change flight trajectories towards other group.

Is for this reason that we are particularly sensible to do not mix track with the atmonauti fly. Encourage people to be more efficient by adding "angles" and with the head that watch behind (and who doesn't want to be more efficient), saying that this technique is tracking, and without saying as the first thing "be careful to the visual of the opposite verse in which you are going", is really incorrect and create a potential condition of danger.
To confuse the track with atmonauti without emphasize this fundamental aspect is a grave mistake for which one should take the responsibility of a confuse and incomplete information!

I invite to reflect about this point. Since 2000 when I wrote the first articles, I emphasis this problematic as a primary condition to keep in mind! In all these following years in which many persons have applied the atmo technique but calling it in other names, I have never read anything from these persons on this important information.
In a phase like today, in which we can watch videos, many people in the world today fly atmonauti, creating a sort of traffic of trajectories, we invite everyone to reflect on the importance to apply integrally the atmonauti system, that consist of being familiar with these problematic and the research of the total precision.
The system imply also that in every atmo flight, there is a "navigator", a person who is responsible to keep the flight plan, respects the directions planned, linear or not, set the angle or the angles of flight, regulate the speed. He is responsible for all the group and is primarily in charge to set these parameters, and above all to be concentrate to respect the direction. No matter if the group is of two or twenty people, there is always a person with this duty and responsibility.

The atmonauti Fly as we know, has many variation and have many different typologies of performance and games, from freestyle to formations, atmo games (Race, ARW, etc), Airshow with smoke … In all these circumstances it's fundamental the issue of the direction.
But is in the smaller group with acrobatic atmo games of freestyle and freefly, or in ARW2 or ARW4 (atmo relative work in 2 or 4 way), that is more important to pay attention to the direction !
In effect being more focused in the performance is easier to distract and change direction without realize, especially in the first training jumps. Try always to keep in mind this factor. With experience and constant attention on this particular, the precision of the navigation will be always more fine, until arrive to be more and more an automatism.

Some practical advises:

Exit order
- exit as a first group with a short in spot: only if the navigator is expert and can guarantee safely the direction, after the exit the trajectory of the direction will be opened with a minimum of 45° (right or left) respect the axe of dropping. Is not admitted an involuntary change of direction towards the axe of dropping of the other vertical groups.
- Exit as the last group: is the more safety condition, especially to start with and when you don't have much experience yet. After the exit it will be performed a turn of max 135° (right or left), paying attention to do not come back on the dropping axe. Or after the exit make a 90° (right or left) and through the dive, make another 90° in the same direction (right if the first turn was right, left if the first turn was left).
- Exit as an intermediate group: make a clear 90° (right or left) right after the exit respect the axe of dropping. If during the flight you go away too much respect the dz, make and ulterior 90° (right or left).

Is important to have a previous briefing with the plane pilot, in order to know the daily axe of dropping in relation of altitude winds/dropzone policy and to be informed if this will be changed. In any case the visual contact with the ground is the primary condition to respect the flight plan, and the support of the gps can add useful information to manage the flight in case of clouds/covers.

If for any reason during the flight you find yourself with a lot of distance in relation of the landing area, open the canopy at higher altitudes in order to be able to come back or anyway have more time to evaluate alternative safety landing areas .

Valuation of the wind on the ground, in order to calculate the more indicate place where to be with the canopy open and be able to get back easily to the landing area. If other groups are making navigations, coordinate the different directions taking into consideration also the direction and intensity of the wind from open canopy till the landing.

Valuation of the wind at the different altitudes to evaluate also the lateral transition of the group in vertical freefall (for example take into consideration that a rw formation slides much more than a vertical freefly formation).

Valuation of the visibility with the ground to decide, on the base of the navigator's experience, if the parameters of the direction can be respected safely.

The use of gps to assist the navigation: during the climb to altitude in the plane, to know in relation of the ground speed of the plane, the direction and intensity of the wind at different heights; to have the direction and distance from the spot during the exit from the plane and during the flight (even when in not visual contact with the ground); to help the navigation under open canopy in case an unattended low clouds coverage .

To know the ground conformation and have points of references in the various cardinal points, as an aid to the navigation, keeping into consideration that the visuals of the navigator is opposite to the sense of flight.

Ground coordination with the other group before get on the plane : "flight plan"!

Check at open canopy and debriefing (also with the analysis of the gps traces), on the effective respect of the flight plan, finding the factors that can be make the navigation better and always more precise.

Anyone that has any doubt or questions to make on these topic, is welcome in this space for more explanations.

Pay attention to the visual and consequently to the direction, and good atmosphere navigation to everyone .


(This post was edited by Vins on Mar 1, 2008, 1:59 PM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Mar 1, 2008, 2:55 PM
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Since 2000, when the angled flight was presented for the first time by the inventor Marco Tiezzi

Surely you are jesting with that statment ...right? You do know that Atmonauti was a move used in freestyle competition for years before someone thought it would be cool to re-invent the wheel?




Quote:
For this reason Marco Ciocca has opened this discussion


Since he also opened it up in another forum, here is my reply from that thread. The entire thread can be seen HERE


Quote:
I'm sorry, but I don't see how this is any different from freeflying when you apply the definition of freeflying. Atmonauti is/was a freestyle move that used to be used in competition before it was removed. Besided the 45 degree attitude it also required a roll to be correctly done. Doing it in different orientations( foot,back,etc monauti) by definition is still freeflying in it's purest sense. I don't see this as being a different discipline. If anything it is a subset of freeflying IMO.

As for your claim of being able to generate lift and the speeds you normally fall at, to include the aerodynamic explanations, I think you are grossly overstating what little lift you may generate. Your claims of fall rate would put you in the range of most easy wingsuit flock dives. I have followed Atmo dives out in my wingsuit and quite frankly you guys come out of the sky just like a tracking dive does but at a steeper angle. A wingsuit can create a very small amount of lift for a very short duration before it begins to fall along it's aerodynamic glide path again. The explanations and descriptions you have given (and that I have heard others give) "sounds good" but the aerodynamics and physics are not there to support it.

I by no means wish to rain on anyones fun and I am positive Atmo is fun to do as it involves flocking in 3 dimensions and we do similar things in wingsuiting. However, cooking up witch doctor aerodynamics, ignoring basic physics and trying to give it a different name doesn't negate the fact that it is still a form of freeflying.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 1, 2008, 3:22 PM
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Dumb question. Why is this different then tracking?? Is it because its a group or is it something else. Just wondering.


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 1, 2008, 6:29 PM
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Today this technique knows several definition and more than one father, like JP Furnari e.g.

I have NEVER claimed to invent anything of the sort.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 1, 2008, 8:25 PM
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Re: [ozzy13] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a big fancy name made up by some euro trash to sound cool telling lies in the pubs after hours to impress the chicks and dumbass students.


stratostar  (Student)

Mar 1, 2008, 8:46 PM
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Re: [diablopilot] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3137455#3137455

Saw it on the internet, so you knows its true.Tongue


Premier sangiro
Head Honcho
Mar 2, 2008, 3:29 AM
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Re: [stratostar] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
It's a big fancy name made up by some euro trash

You are on incredibly thin ice.


ozzy13  (D 29344)

Mar 2, 2008, 5:04 AM
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Re: [stratostar] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

 so its a fancy name for TRACKING i see


Vins

Mar 2, 2008, 6:35 AM
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Surely you are jesting with that statment ...right? You do know that Atmonauti was a move used in freestyle competition for years before someone thought it would be cool to re-invent the wheel?

I think your affermation (and not only your, I know) represent a paradox and I would try to explane why.

Yes, I know that Atmonauti was a move used in freestyle competition as I know that it was happend after years that Marco Tiezzi and Gigliola Borgnis was presented the Atmo-Freestyle at Eloy in the FreeFly Festival on 2000, technique colled Atmonauti by themselfs at that time. They won a prize by the film edited by Tiezzi that showed a "new" stuff that flown in angle, never seen before, and in a Freestyle competition.

On 2003, after 3 years that Marco and Gi did and showed angled flights, FAI described for the first time the definitions of angles and the manouvers in angled Freestyle. The angled flight was entered officially in the history and it was called... Atmonauti!
Please, read Addendum B-6:
http://www.fai.org/...rtistic_adb_2007.pdf

For few years Marco and Gi had teached this innovative technique to their friends, Babylon, Flyboz, and many others. Those professionals, that never flown in angle before (never seen), have recorded own first record in angled flight when they joined to X-Team on 2003-2004 in Perris.
Please, see here:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3139737#3139737

On www.atmonauti.com these records was presented as Atmo-records, nobody of the X-Team component have NEVER debated these facts and so I think your opinion about the re-invention of the weel, it's your responsability against the hystory.

In that occasion the components of X-Team have learnt the technique directly fron the inventor. Today many poeple say that the angled flight was precticed from long time before 2000, but I've never seen nothing about it, done by other people at that time.

I have made personal reserches and I saw many magazines, DVD and VHS, I'm sure that before 2000 there's nothing that looks like angles (except what Marco have done in secret from 1998). Before 2000 the angled flight didn't exists!

You can find few stuff of my reserches here:
http://www.dropzone.com/...post=3140560#3140560

Instead, I have a lot of articles took from Paramag and other magazine in wich Atmonauti (angled flight) was presented for the first time as an invention by Tiezzi, the only promoter until 2004, as showed in DVD and magazines. While the magazines often showed the progression of Marco and Gi in angled fligh, the same magazines showed the firsts angled flight of other people after 2004.

Today there are many definitions of Atmonauti / Tracking Jumps / Angled Flight.
But for what I have explaned above, as any evolution of Free Fly is always Free Fly, for the same reason, for me, any "different type" of angled flight practiced, is always ATMONAUTI!

Do you have some proof that angled flight was invented / discovered / presented / promoted by some other people that wasn't Marco Tiezzi and before 2000?
Who, when, how?
Do you have, date, magazines, events, video, foto, frame, referenced documents?
Let me know, please.

Do you think I'm joke yet? Wink

Vins


(This post was edited by Vins on Mar 2, 2008, 6:45 AM)


Premier LouDiamond  (D 25931)
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Mar 2, 2008, 9:40 AM
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Do you think I'm joke yet?

I think you and Marco C.( and a few others out there) take this way too seriously. The whole ratings thing sounds like another version of the Dolphin ratings. Regardless of who invented it or invented a name for it, it is still a form of freeflying. On top of that, ATMO has pretty much been a flash in the pan and I think it's in part to the hype and verbose claims that it's something different when it is not. If you enjoy doing it then thats great, go get your free, I mean Atmo on. But please spare the rest of us the erroneous explanations about lift and fanatical "drink the Kool Aid" hype. Because quite frankly, when presented in the manner here in this thread and all the other explanations I have seen, it does come across as a joke. Call it a ATMO dive but don't try to say it isn't a form of freeflying and for Gods sake stop trying to convince others that you are generating any amount of quantifiable lift greater than that of a normal track. The explanations( and pictures) I have seen given all sound rather convincing to the lay person but in fact , they are actually quite embarrassingly inaccurate. Instead, I recommend you call it what it is, freeflying, ditch all the mumbo jumbo explanations and ratings and go out and do it. Otherwise you'll find yourself hanging out with all those Dolphin rating holders.


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Mar 2, 2008, 11:33 AM
Post #17 of 166 (8023 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Today this technique knows several definition and more than one father, like JP Furnari e.g.

I have NEVER claimed to invent anything of the sort.
Quit squirming! You have been designated the inventor and no amount of denial will get you out of it. Furthermore all problems with the form that arise will be assigned to you; you will be pilloried wherever you go for that.
YOU ARE the Olaf of atmonauti.


(This post was edited by Andrewwhyte on Mar 2, 2008, 11:34 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Mar 2, 2008, 1:22 PM
Post #18 of 166 (8001 views)
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Re: [Andrewwhyte] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Guess I better find a tree to hang out in.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Mar 2, 2008, 3:13 PM
Post #19 of 166 (7985 views)
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Re: [Vins] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

I just went out to the www.atmonauti.com site, (again), and I still see diagrams such as the one which compares atmonauti with tracking, showing that as opposed to tracking where "body line" is at an angle to the relative wind, atmonauti is parallel to it.

That angle is commonly known as "Angle Of Attack". Every wing requires an AOA greater than zero in order to create lift. I have a hard time believing that just by announcing "I'm doing Atmonauti" as I leave the plane, I can violate the laws of physics and create lift with an AOA of zero.
Attachments: atmo-track.jpg (57.8 KB)


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 3, 2008, 2:44 AM
Post #20 of 166 (7926 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

...."I resent you using this forum to push your personal agenda"...


Did I read this correctly? You RESENT this post?

This is for safety purposes, for people like yourself, to fly and have fun safely and YOU RESENT IT?Mad


(This post was edited by mciocca on Mar 3, 2008, 3:18 AM)


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 3, 2008, 2:47 AM
Post #21 of 166 (7924 views)
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Re: [JustChuteMeNow] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Hiya, These are actual requirements as implemented in certain countries around the world, including Italy and South Africa, and are the bases for ratings and safe flying.

Its laid out as per other disciplines whereby you have an official progression in place for the safe practice and learning of Atmonauti at DZ around the world.

As more and more people are doing atmo, it requires a set of procedures, in order to progress safelySmile


(This post was edited by mciocca on Mar 3, 2008, 3:12 AM)


Vins

Mar 3, 2008, 2:49 AM
Post #22 of 166 (7922 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have NEVER claimed to invent anything of the sort.

Who wrote this story on Wikipedia? Marco Tiezzi?
I don't think so. You JP? Maybe Andy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmonauti

I don't know, but I think someone does't respect the hard work of certain people. I'ts easy and very fun to joke with the work of others.
Ok, I want to play this game...


(This post was edited by Vins on Mar 3, 2008, 2:53 AM)


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 3, 2008, 2:55 AM
Post #23 of 166 (7913 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

The point was to have a section under INSTRUCTORS to assist and shed light on safe Atmo progression.

Why dont you guys go onto another forum you can label LETS TRASH ATMONAUTI.

This section is for serious folk who take care of the safety of their fellow jumpers in the community.

This goes out to all of you who are once again using this forum to destabalise and defame, If you dont have something valuable to add specific to safety... MOVE TO ANOTHER FORUM.


mciocca  (C License)

Mar 3, 2008, 3:05 AM
Post #24 of 166 (7908 views)
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Re: [mciocca] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

Atmonauti, whether one accepts it or not, requires a brand new set of skills, understanding and techniques for them to be efficient and done safely.

There are a new set of safety standards which are not applicable in freefall down the tube.

We need to recognize the need to formalise new disciplines for these reasons, and not confuse the issue with lift/spilling air etc etc. The overriding point of departure should be to differentiate and implement safety standards and procedures specific to horizontal 3d travel.


Vins

Mar 3, 2008, 3:54 AM
Post #25 of 166 (7894 views)
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Re: [LouDiamond] ATMONAUTI [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
On top of that, ATMO has pretty much been a flash in the pan and I think it's in part to the hype and verbose claims that it's something different when it is not.

You would try to convince skydivers of South Africa that, since this year, they will precties Atmonauti as separate discipline (they will do Atmonauti in the Nationals) and they will teach to beginners a new kind of progression in skydiving, with licences, and it's called Atmonauti. Wink

I repeat, atmo was presented for the first time by Tiezzi and teached to the professionals at that time, they became indipendent in angled flight before 2004. It's write in the history.
Why this technique shouldn't be something different to Freefly?

Who can decided what's this? Tiezzi I think. Cool
And have you asked him what's he thinks about his discover?
You would ask.

For sure I have respect for Freefly but I'm not feel to be a Freeflyer because I'm not able. I'm able to do Atmonauti and I do this only.

Saying I do freefly it's to say nothing about what I do. For this reason I desagree with the claim that it's all Freefly.


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