Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Swooping and Canopy Control:
Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns

 


acid  (D 15070)

Dec 15, 2002, 12:56 AM
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Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns Can't Post

I've never test Stiletto, and just 30 jumps ago started using my new Crossfire119 (w/l=1.6, my previous canopy was Omega 149, w/l 1.3). This weekend one guy from my dz said Stiletto is more aggressive then same size Crossfire. I realy think this is not true. So what are you thinking:
1) Which one (same size Stiletto or Cross) is more aggressive and faster in toggle turns?
2) Same about front riser turns.
3) Which one is... ummm... swoopierWink?

4) And in general, what are you thinking about learning to swoop on Crossfire whith w/l=1.6? Is it realy possible?Smile Maybe you can give some advices for beginner swooper?

Thanks, and sorry for my terrible englishCrazy


schumacher  (D License)

Dec 15, 2002, 1:16 AM
Post #2 of 22 (5124 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

As for my little expirience for piloting Stilleto and Crossfire, I've noticed that Stilleto at the same size is much more aggressive to turns, but swoop distance is equal or longer on Crossfire.

Crossfire seems to me slugish for toogle turns, but dives more using front risers.

As for swooping - be safe! You can see a lot of people (espessialy Russian 8-way), who can outswoop X-braced little tiny rockets by their 135-Stilletos. Proper tecnics and using brains will extend your swoop, not a downsizing. 1.6 is very good load, even for Crossfire. And ask Mr. Mineev for swooping course.


Premier PhreeZone  (D License)
Moderator
Dec 15, 2002, 1:32 AM
Post #3 of 22 (5119 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

By 1.6 you should have learned every thing you need to have some killer swoops. at 1.25 I've got video of skid marks 60 feet long so you can swoop at any level loading.


ramon  (D 26115)

Dec 15, 2002, 5:28 AM
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:

Thanks, and sorry for my terrible englishCrazy

Ni za chto, vwi govaritee angliskee yazik ochen horosho. Amerkansi zdec ne mogoot govorith ne kakoiee drugiee yaziki. tak..Angelic I think I made more mistakes in that second sentence than you did in your post.Wink

I have seen people surf crossfires very far. I think they will swoop as far as a stilleto... with skill.

Good luck.

ramon


Canuck

Dec 15, 2002, 9:51 AM
Post #5 of 22 (5059 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I've jumped both canopies - lots.

The Stiletto is a faster turning canopy on both toggles and risers. However, other than turns, the Crossfire is a better performing, more agressive canopy than a Stiletto in all aspects. It dives WAY steeper and faster, will swoop MUCH further in the same pilot's hands, and will set you down on tip toes everytime. The Crossfire is categorically a step up from a Stiletto.

As a side note on the turns, talk to people who have just started jumping a Velocity/FX/VX. Many of them will tell you that their old Stiletto's turned faster. Then once they get a bit more experience on the canopy and figure out the control range is MUCH deeper, they change their story. Same with the Crossfire. You don't start pulling g's in the first two inches of your toggle stroke like a Stiletto, but get a toggle down to your chest and you better have your shoes tied up tight.

Canuck


ernokaikkonen  (D 12)

Dec 15, 2002, 1:29 PM
Post #6 of 22 (5024 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Isn't anyone going to say that a Crossfire2 loaded @ 1.6 is a bit much for a guy with 150 jumps? Ok, I will:

<canopy nazi>
You're jumping a canopy too small for your experience level. You're likely to get hurt.
</canopy nazi>


Zlew  (D 21616)

Dec 15, 2002, 7:21 PM
Post #7 of 22 (4975 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I"ve found the swoops to be very smilar, and in toggle (any kind realy) turns the cross fire flies about 2 sizes biger compared to a Stiletto. I'ts pretty trucky until you really load it up.

Z


jdhill  (D License)

Dec 16, 2002, 9:22 AM
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

The Siletto has a much shorter control range that the Crossfire and therefore may seem to be more aggressive... that said, my experiance is that the Crossfire will dive harder than a Stiletto and will surf further under the same conditions. The Stiletto also has a shorter recovery arch and higher riser pressure than the Crossfire.

As someone else mentioned, if you only have 150 jumps, you have chosen a canopy/wingloading combination that can bite you very hard if you try things that you are not ready for... there is plenty of time to swoop if you approach learning it in a deliberate manner, seek professional instruction.

Josh


rhino  (D 22500)

Dec 16, 2002, 6:01 PM
Post #9 of 22 (4844 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Crossfire 1 or 2??


acid  (D 15070)

Dec 16, 2002, 10:25 PM
Post #10 of 22 (4824 views)
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Re: Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

schumacher, Canuck, jdhill - Ok, I'm starting to understand the difference. Thanks for your explanations.

ernokaikkonen, rhino - just Crossfire, not Crossfire 2.

Quote:
ernokaikkonen: ...Isn't anyone going to say that a Crossfire2 loaded @ 1.6 is a bit much for a guy with 150 jumps? Ok, I will...
jdhill: As someone else mentioned, if you only have 150 jumps, you have chosen a canopy/wingloading combination that can bite you very hard if you try things that you are not ready for...

You're right, I know. I'm trying to be realy carefull. I still land it without agressive turns, only sometimes I'm trying soft carves, less then 90 degrees. All trainings only at safe altitude.

Quote:
schumacher: ...And ask Mr. Mineev for swooping course.
jdhill: ...seek professional instruction.

I'll try to do it.

P.S. ramon! Your russian is good too! Wink


listo  (D License)

Dec 18, 2002, 6:07 AM
Post #11 of 22 (4751 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

well, I have jumped both canopies. The stiletto is much more aggressive in both speed and ease of riser input. The Crossfire has a much higher front riser pressure than the stiletto. As for the length of the swoop, they are about the same. However, I would offer the same advice that was given to me. If you need to ask about swooping techniques at a 1.6 wing loading, you are probably highly inexperienced and I would suggest taking your time. It will come to you in time. Don't rush things. I have a titanium rod in my left femur and a broken back because of a stiletto 120. There is no room for mistakes when you start trying to swoop. You really need to ask yourself is your life more or less important than looking cool doing a fast long swoop. Take your time and live long. You have the rest of your life to master your canopy. Dont make your life too short!
Good luckTongue


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Dec 18, 2002, 7:48 AM
Post #12 of 22 (4734 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm trying to be realy carefull. I still land it without agressive turns, only sometimes I'm trying soft carves, less then 90 degrees. All trainings only at safe altitude.
Hope you're already capable of doing flat turns and flare turns at unsafe altitudes, can already land it crosswind and downwind and can already put that canopy exactly where you want to, standing up, every time.

The time to learn how to do high performance landings was under your old canopy at 1.3. Hope you don't make any mistakes at 1.6...


andygrom  (D License)

Jan 13, 2003, 7:35 AM
Post #13 of 22 (4495 views)
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Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

I saw your "safe" landing last weekend, when you leave big hole in the snow. Only deep snow saved your legs and, probably, life at all.
Your canopy is too agressive for your expeerience. Try to switch on your brain and save your life and health.
And stop histerics about downsizing.
I hope in nearest future safety rules will be changed - I don't want to see dead body on my DZ.


acid  (D 15070)

Jan 13, 2003, 10:59 AM
Post #14 of 22 (4437 views)
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Re: [andygrom] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, first of all I'll explain details of that occurrence for everybody. That was 01/06/2003, 2nd lift on our DZ (1st for me). I was the LAST skydiver who left chopper, so after headdown training (I don't really stable in headdown and sometime horizontal zooming takes place in my individual jumps) and deploy at ~2500ft I was pretty far from landing area. So when I passed landing point and made 180 deg. turn the really altitude was less than 200ft. But a lot of VERY white snow and VERY bright sunshine played a very bad trick on me, so I understood my mistake only after completion of my 1st flat 180 degree turn under Crossfire. I cant even imagine, how many meters of altitude will eat Crossire after it. So in a split second I found myself digged under tons of beautiful soft snow.

So main reason of that occurrence was:
  • my lack of experience in low-altitude flat turns with Crossfire;

  • my stupidity in case of unusual weather.


  • Quote:
    I hope in nearest future safety rules will be changed - I don't want to see dead body on my DZ.

    After that terrible landing I have had long conversations with ALL instructors and many experienced jumpers from our DZ, most of them saw that fall themselves. I have completely became aware of my mistake and I think I will not be so stupid again. As my instructor (Roman Lednev) said, sometime everybody, even REALLY careful jumper, can made same mistake, and I'm very lucky, because I passed this test in right time - with a lot of snow. And, as he said, downsizing and canopy model are not reasons in this case. The reason is my brain. I could get hurt by low-altitude turn with my old Omega-149 @1.3, or one of many "right" (for my experience) canopies.

    So, as direction of DZ decide:
  • I'm not restricted to jump my canopy for the time present;

  • I must use not more than 90 degrees turns for speed it up, always pay attention to altitude
  • .

    After that occurrence I've made 15 jumps for now. All my landings was controlled by instructors. Most of landings was straight line, sometimes it was 90 degrees. Every jump I've remembered that stupid landing. Every landing was perfect, so my instructor said he believes I'll not repeat that mistake and I'm really adequate enough to fly and improve my skills with my current canopy.


    RichM  (D 100226)

    Jan 13, 2003, 2:05 PM
    Post #15 of 22 (4386 views)
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    Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    So main reason of that occurrence was:
  • my lack of experience in low-altitude flat turns with Crossfire;

  • my stupidity in case of unusual weather.


  • Both of which validate and reinforce the concerns of most of the posters - you are not experienced enough to be jumping this canopy. I wish you well and I hope you prove to be an exception rather than a statistic. But you have stacked the odds against yourself, with the gambit of your life. Good luck, you'll likely need it.


    freeflyz  (D 25150)

    Jan 13, 2003, 8:30 PM
    Post #16 of 22 (4328 views)
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    Re: [RichM] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    My friend you are fighting a losing battle,I've found out people are going to fly what ever canopy they want,In ther mind it's not cool jumping a 170 square canopy,they want to do cool surfs like the other guys with crossbraced canopys!! It's going to cost them there life or a broken bone! I learned the hard way!And that was on a 169 Safire,if it would of been on my Crossfire i would be pushing up daises right now!But thats what they wantUnsure


    sweeney  (D 26032)

    Jan 13, 2003, 9:46 PM
    Post #17 of 22 (4312 views)
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    Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    byfn


    RichM  (D 100226)

    Jan 14, 2003, 5:25 AM
    Post #18 of 22 (4230 views)
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    Re: [freeflyz] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    In reply to:
    My friend you are fighting a losing battle,I've found out people are going to fly what ever canopy they want,In ther mind it's not cool jumping a 170 square canopy,they want to do cool surfs like the other guys with crossbraced canopys!! It's going to cost them there life or a broken bone! I learned the hard way!And that was on a 169 Safire,if it would of been on my Crossfire i would be pushing up daises right now!But thats what they wantUnsure

    I know Unsure but I won't stop trying to educate. If only 1 in 100 listen, it's worth the effort.


    sarge  (A 36)

    Jan 14, 2003, 4:54 PM
    Post #19 of 22 (4157 views)
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    Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    well, I don't know your whole situation? But rest assured you are under the microscope brother.

    These crash vetrans have always had a good message for me (and I am not the best listener) . I had 250+ jumps on my Monarch 150 before I started jumping my Stiletto 120. I've got about 200 jumps on that wing. I just down-sized; to a Crossfire 2 119, Yup! cut a whole (1) sq ft outta that equation!!!

    Actually, last srping, my first choice was a Velocity. But I've tried some other non-X canopies, Jedei, Samurai, Crossfire and geez! They work just fine for me. It ain't no competition til you're in competition! Hell, for example, the VX is marketed as a special use canopy anyway, (if my memory serves correct). whatever... besides ask Jason Peters about the swoop on the Crossfire...

    Point is, (for me) Cause after you are lucky enough to land that Crossfire (or any1.5 +) under your circumstances , (which 1.6 Crossfire is fast as hell !!! comapred to the Stiletto at 1.6, BTW, It does dive a lot faster!) say 50 or so times, you are a likely candidate for developing that false sense of security. (just my opinion) I was to yet down-size again before I thought better of it. and I've never broken anything yet...(sprains, dislocations count?)Hmmm?

    I like to do a lot of solos, for canopy work, but since I'm goin last near or last anyway in those situations, There's no good reason (not to open a debate) for pulling a bit higher than 2500!!! Man, altitude, thats the time! Thats where I learned 90-360s and everything that preceeds those, like turning out of those same manuevers-- on both sides! before I tried them for final.

    Good luck, keep the grass off your ass, or the snow outta your hole.

    Hey look! Is that guy really going to turn his rabbit into a hat?


    Yoshi  (D 26770)

    Jan 17, 2003, 1:43 PM
    Post #20 of 22 (3982 views)
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    Re: [sarge] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    good point on the pulling higher.. any time I experiment with my canopy and try something I havnt done before I try it above myt hard deck.... that way in the even something goes majorly wrong I have time to chop and bring in the reserve...
    jsut my 2 cents, but I am also with him....I fly a very aggressive canopy for my number of jumps... although I have had coaching and taken my approach faster than most (which I highly dont reccomend for everyone) I have made my mistakes... I came about 2 inches from killing myself...everyone around me though that I broke in 2....somehow there must have been something lurking over my shoulders that day because I only walked away with a bruise from my right ankle to my hip.... now (especially since I jsut downsized again) I am reverting to the very basics again. no more 180's anytime soon....:) I know that I have pushed my previous canopy near its limits (not always, but I could when I wanted to) and now that I jsut dropped a handful of square feet its time to go back to streight in approach for a few jumps before even attempting any kind of front riser maneuver...
    ahh well
    -yoshi


    cliffharris  (D 25832)

    Jan 17, 2003, 2:35 PM
    Post #21 of 22 (3969 views)
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    Re: [acid] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    i downsized from a stiletto 150 @ 1.5 to a crossfire 129 @ 1.9. I'm not sure i can really compare the two objectively because i never bothered jumping a small stiletto. what i can say is; the major difference between the two is that the stiletto really wants to pull out of a dive whereas the crossfire will definately hold a dive longer and sustain it's speed. i also think the crossfire will achieve a higher speed than the stiletto. again, im not sure if this is really the case since i never jumped a small stiletto. i would also recommend a fair amount of work up top and straight in double front approaches for a while to get the flare stroke down because the the crossfires' flare starts where the stiletto's flare ends, more or less. in other words, if you attempt to perform the same flare on the crossfire that you did on the stiletto, you're gonna pound in. Also, if you apply your stiletto approach to your crossfire, your gonna be digging out bigtime because in my opinion on two equal turns the crossfire will probably dive 100 feet longer than the stiletto, and faster as well, giving you less time to react. i think the stiletto teaches bad hp skills because it has to be turned relatively low to the ground to sync w/ it's pullout and keep it's speed up. ***also on another note: if you don't have a good enough understanding of hp canopy flight that you dont know exactly how much altitude your canopy looses on every degree of turn you shouldn't be doing hp landings. seek the advice of someone that can teach you how to do this stuff as safely as possible. i use to be the scary guy. had no idea there was a method to this madness. i'm lucky i sought instruction before i got myself hurt. you should do the same. peace


    Zlew  (D 21616)

    Jan 17, 2003, 2:43 PM
    Post #22 of 22 (3964 views)
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    Re: [cliffharris] Stiletto vs Crossfire: swooping and turns [In reply to] Can't Post

    The crossfire does have a bit longer of a recovery arch, however, your downsize was pretty big (.4 lb/sq) and you would also find that a smaller stiletto has a longer recovery arch than a bigger one (but the same size smaller cross fire willl tend to have a little bit longer recovery still).
    My 107 has a significantly shortter recovery arch than my 97 does. and you can't even compare my old 135 and 97's recovery arch. wingloading means a lot.

    Z



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