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DB Cooper

 

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Sluggo_Monster

Feb 19, 2008, 2:37 PM
Post #201 of 55598 (49302 views)
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Re: [mark] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

mark,

Actually he was moving faster than that, closer to 3 miles a minute.

Your point is well taken, but, this was no precision DZ landing (or whatever you guys call it).

The significance of the landing strip (not really an airport) is: The terrain is flat and level with minimum obstructions. That’s all I am inferring. In 1971 it was not anything like the terrain the FBI was pushing off on the situation when they insisted he jumped near Ariel. It was mostly small farms and open pasture.

A standard rate turn of 27 degrees would take about 10 sec. So exactly when he made the determination that the second turn was in progress is a moot point.

I won’t (actually I can’t) address the pre-jump aspects of his exit. You are right every 20 seconds past the decision to jump now is 1 mile further away. But, I do know it was: Fly Straight, turn left, fly straight, turn right, jump. If the pilot started the turn 1 mile away, and it took him 10 seconds to exit, he was within 0.5 miles of the VOR. You can fill in the other scenarios; he’s got a few minutes until he reached a populated area or the river.

The post-jump aspects were discussed in depth in the old thread. He might have landed 5 miles away from the jump point.

The only point I am trying to make is: I want to refute the FBI’s (Ckret’s) assertion that "Cooper had little idea where he was when he jumped".

Everything else is just speculation and I like to speculate as much as everyone. Like this; “At 10,000 MSL, with the aft stairs down, and if he was halfway down the stairs, he could see the lights of Merwin Dam”. That’s just speculation. But, when I say; “he knew that V-23 was the only viable airway (based on his demands), and he knew when the plane passed the MALAY Fix and the BTG VOR”, then that’s speculation of a different order.

I’ll tell you one thing; I’d give just about anything to test my speculation. SmileSee if you can line up someone to fly me (and my dime-store compass) along V-23, at 10,000 ft and see if I can tell where MALAY and BTG are. BUT, I won’t jump out of a perfectly good airplane! Wink


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 19, 2008, 3:40 PM
Post #202 of 55598 (49291 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Trying to get Enroute L1 down below 100 kb just leaves a lot of “eye-confusion”. Go to http://skyvector.com/ and look at the chart. Select Charts=>The Seattle Area. When the Seattle Sectional comes up look in the upper right and select “Enroute L1”. Then you can follow V-23.

I have attached a 3-D Google Earth view of V-23 from SEA to just below PDX.

It illustrates how large the turns are.

Sluggo_Monster
Attachments: Two-V-23-Turns-ANN-RED.jpg (97.0 KB)


low_pull1

Feb 19, 2008, 7:42 PM
Post #203 of 55598 (49256 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

................ In Reply To
Jo,
Were Duane and McCoy a team? Was "Chuck " tied to the team? Chuck was from VA ow W VA too

How can anyone get that statement out of the following PRIVATE EMAIL..
........................

1) Chuck was Duanes skydiving neighbor in VA

2) Skydiver McCoy was being visited for the last time by Duane in VA (seems Duane knew him due to the crying)

3) Duane was involved w/ Skydiving (maybe as a jumper or ground man)


no possible connection?? open your eyes to more than one path

bsbd
Chuck


itllclear  (D 6366)

Feb 19, 2008, 7:46 PM
Post #204 of 55598 (49255 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
BUT, I won’t jump out of a perfectly good airplane!

Wait till you see the plane I bring!!!


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Feb 19, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #205 of 55598 (49248 views)
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Re: [itllclear] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
BUT, I won’t jump out of a perfectly good airplane!

Wait till you see the plane I bring!!!

Thanks for the laugh! You're da Man, Harry! Laugh

ltdiver


skyjack71

Feb 19, 2008, 10:08 PM
Post #206 of 55598 (49237 views)
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Re: [low_pull1] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

[reply
Jo,
Were Duane and McCoy a team? Was "Chuck " tied to the team? Chuck was from VA ow W VA too

How can anyone get that statement out of the following PRIVATE EMAIL..
........................
no possible connection?? open your eyes====================================

Please don't take this any further - I have learned my lesson not to think out loud or with my fingers.

Chuck was a young man, Duane met when we moved to Virginia (neighbors) - I simply was interested in finding this man to see if any conversations they had in 1984 might help me out.

If you have a personal reason to try to connect Duane to McCoy do it on your own....I can definitely tell you there was NO CONNECTION. His statement about feeling responsible for someone elses death - I do not even know if that was connected to any of this.........................

LaughMaybe it was when he and XXXXX pushed a large boulder down a hill on to the highway in the path of a car -- in the early 40's - He never told me if the boulder hit the car or if anyone got hurt! So you see his being responsible for someone else's death could be multiple - he did spend 17 yrs in prison -?

END OF SUBJECT - Dead, Okay.


skyjack71

Feb 19, 2008, 10:20 PM
Post #207 of 55598 (49234 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Then the flight proceeds to the Battle Ground VORTAC (BTG) where it turns back right 24 deg.
In reply to:

What is Battle Ground VORTAC....???????????
I have seen this used in this forum but I do not have a clue what it is.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 19, 2008, 11:09 PM
Post #208 of 55598 (49228 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Then the flight proceeds to the Battle Ground VORTAC (BTG) where it turns back right 24 deg.
In reply to:

What is Battle Ground VORTAC....???????????
I have seen this used in this forum but I do not have a clue what it is.

A VORTAC is a radio navigation aid. "Battle Ground" would be the name of a particular one.

A VORTAC sends out signals that can be decoded by aircraft instrumentation to determine bearing and distance from its location on the ground. At the time of the DB Cooper caper, there were no portable devices capable of doing this and from Cooper's place in the aircraft he would have no way of knowing his position relative to any such device.


377  (F 666)

Feb 20, 2008, 1:12 AM
Post #209 of 55598 (49220 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

 At the time of the DB Cooper caper, there were no portable devices capable of doing this and from Cooper's place in the aircraft he would have no way of knowing his position relative to any such device.
Not that Cooper used it, and a surrounding aircraft structure would complicate the matter, but there is a crude way to DF using only a receiver, no VOR processing electronics nor any directional antenna. It has been used to locate activated ELT beacons using only a handheld receiver. The following excerpted from L-Per RDF website:

Radio direction finding using body shielding: The procedure is to use a short wire stuck into the receiver antenna input. Its a good idea to have a short antenna (6 inches) . If you are close enough you may be able to get a signal with no antenna at all. Hold the receiver in close to your body, with the antenna also close to you. Your body will affect the signal (by absorption) in the same way that wing shadowing does in the air. Slowly, rotate your self and the receiver as a unit through 360 degrees. At some point you should note a minimum. You are then facing directly away from the transmitter.


Premier quade  (D 22635)
Moderator
Feb 20, 2008, 8:24 AM
Post #210 of 55598 (49178 views)
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Re: [377] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

The idea that someone could use this technique in the back of an aircraft to somehow give himself enough situational awareness to spot a jump run is, however, simply laughable.


normiss  (D 28356)

Feb 20, 2008, 8:42 AM
Post #211 of 55598 (49170 views)
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Re: [quade] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't believe that was even remotely part of his intent given his comments....although it does appear that situational awareness on where the aircraft may have been was not as challenging as first thought.


winsor  (D 13715)

Feb 20, 2008, 8:44 AM
Post #212 of 55598 (49170 views)
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Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

The idea that Cooper exited anywhere near a planned location does not wash.

For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration.

In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category.

I have made jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.

On the basis of the foregoing, when someone proposes a scenario wherein every part of the hijacking was part of a carefully crafted plan, I call bullshit.

If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned.

All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."


Blue skies,

Winsor


(This post was edited by winsor on Feb 20, 2008, 11:24 AM)


377  (F 666)

Feb 20, 2008, 10:10 AM
Post #213 of 55598 (49156 views)
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Re: [winsor] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Winsor is right, but he and even Quade recognize that this forum intertwines investigation with fun and extreme speculation. Outlandish theories are accepted and even encouraged to some degree. We inevitably assign order to chaos in the process of reverse engineering Cooper's jump. Cooper's jump was likely extremely chaotic. If he had plans they didn't work out 100% or the money would never have been found (Winsor's point). It almost had to be chaotic given the circumstances: night, cold, rain, imprecise location info, unfamiliar gear, improvised money containment, fast exit , unsleeved canopy, fear, etc etc.

But what if??? Those what ifs are fun and nobody has positively ruled them out. Remember, NONE of the big stuff has been found, no body, no gear. We cannot rule out that Cooper walked away alive.

If Cooper executed a farmland jump, then his chances of survival increase. Sluggo has given a way that it might have happened, however unlikely.

Jumpship navigation isnt a trivial exercise once you are off DZ. To add to the problem, Cooper did not have command of the aircraft course athough Sluggo says he might have cleverly influenced it to suit his needs by specifying a maximum altitude and a particular destination.

In 1967, a surplus B 25 with VOR gear and in radio contact with ATC accidently dropped a load of jumpers over over Lake Erie, far from shore. Most drowned. It was cloudy. Mistakes were made by the pilot and by ATC. Stuff happens when you jump in bad weather and over unfamiliar locations. Bad stuff.

There is a principal used in scientific inquiry called Occam's Razor. Wikipedia describes it as follows:

"All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best." In other words, when multiple competing theories are equal in other respects, the principle recommends selecting the theory that introduces the fewest assumptions and postulates the fewest entities."

Applying Occam, the likeliest outcome is that Cooper went in and his body has not been found. Everything else takes more assumptions. I am sure others disagree and I welcome the oncoming backlash/dialog.


(This post was edited by 377 on Feb 20, 2008, 10:11 AM)


Albert18

Feb 20, 2008, 11:05 AM
Post #214 of 55598 (49129 views)
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Re: [winsor] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I have made enough jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.

Isn't the fact you are on this forum posting mean you survived those jumps.

This info tells me what?


pirana  (D 30661)

Feb 20, 2008, 11:08 AM
Post #215 of 55598 (49128 views)
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Re: [winsor] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."


Blue skies,

Winsor

Pretty sure that was Wolfgang Pauli.


winsor  (D 13715)

Feb 20, 2008, 11:44 AM
Post #216 of 55598 (49120 views)
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Re: [Albert18] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I have made enough jumps out of a variety of jets, at altitudes ranging from pattern to Class A, in rain, snow and sleet, and into unlighted dropzones in total darkness carrying heavy loads. I am much better than average at aviation navigation and spotting, with decades of experience in both.

Isn't the fact you are on this forum posting mean you survived those jumps.

This info tells me what?

Simply that I've been there, done that, and don't buy most of the scenarios put forth in this forum.

It forms the basis for my doubting to the extreme that Cooper exited the aircraft anywhere near a preplanned location, for one thing. It also gives me reason to conclude that Cooper had no idea of what he was up against.

Thousands of aviators made their first jumps from stricken aircraft and survived, some more banged up than others. The number of residents in the Luftstalag system, the folks that survived the experience. was in the six digits, so getting to the ground in one piece was a viable option.

When you get to the part of putting people jumping intentionally with gear into a predetermined location, the record becomes much spottier. With all the training, planning, Pathfinders and what have you, the tendency - often as not - is to drop people all over hell and creation.

For someone to successfully execute the jump and coordinate with either a support person on the ground or waiting transportation is beyond unlikely.

There is the infinitesimal chance that he lost some or all of the money, slinked away, and never let on that he had been behind this adventure.

In any event, I don't buy the claims of the spouse of the OP.


Blue skies,

Winsor


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 20, 2008, 11:45 AM
Post #217 of 55598 (49117 views)
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Re: [winsor] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Winsor,

Thank you for your response (ouch). I asked for critical assessment and I got it.



Quote:
For one thing, the routing of an aircraft by ATC is a game of Simon Says. Regardless of what kind of reverse-psychology you think you have dialed in, the likelihood of getting a particular route +/- 5 miles is so low as to be unworthy of consideration.

Are you sure? If we can locate an Air Traffic Controller, let’s see what 2-digit Victor Airway he/she will assign, given the Cooper parameters. If they give anything other than V-23, I’ll stand corrected. (As I said earlier, I want to be right, not just right in my mind.) I welcome help from active or past ATCs.




Quote:
In the same sense that it is almost impossible for a skilled artist to mimic a child's drawing without it being obvious to the trained eye that it was actually done by a pro, there is a big difference between a seasoned parachutist throwing in enough red herrings to confuse investigators and a clueless neophyte who really has no conception of what is involved. Cooper shows too many signs of being in the latter category.

While I’m totally neutral on your conclusion (concerning Coopers skill level), I love the analogy. I hope it isn’t original, because I will probably use it in some of my training.




Quote:
If you have things under control, you don't lose money. The money was the whole reason for the exercise, so this is a big red flag that says that it did not go as planned.

I agree, things probably did not go as planned. But, how can you say the money was the “reason for the exercise”, especially, in view of the; “I just have a grudge” statement from Cooper to Mucklow?




Quote:
All the speculation in this thread that comes from armchair quarterbacks is fine, but has little to do with reality. I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."

Thanks for the segue. Odd you should mention Heisenberg and armchair quarterbacks in the same sentence. If you are familiar with Heisenberg, then surely you are familiar with his “uncertainty principle” and it’s relationship to Erwin Schrödinger’s ”cat analogy”.

Well, Winsor, I believe since you, nor I, nor anyone on this board was there (unless someone on this board is Cooper), then we are all armchair quarterbacks. And just like Heisenberg, the more we accept particular aspect/parameter in this case, the less we know about the reality of the case. So, we all just assign a reality in which we are comfortable. I have mine and you have yours.

Oh, and about Schrödinger’s cat, unless you have found the body, as far as Schrödinger is concerned, just like the cat in the box, Cooper is dead AND Cooper is alive.



Thanks for the criticism, really!


Sluggo_Monster, Armchair Quarterback


(This post was edited by Sluggo_Monster on Feb 20, 2008, 11:51 AM)


winsor  (D 13715)

Feb 20, 2008, 11:45 AM
Post #218 of 55598 (49116 views)
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Re: [pirana] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."


Blue skies,

Winsor

Pretty sure that was Wolfgang Pauli.

Bingo. At least I had the right category of Physicists in mind....


Blue skies,

Winsor


low_pull1

Feb 20, 2008, 6:36 PM
Post #219 of 55598 (49053 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

 [reply
Jo,
Were Duane and McCoy a team? Was "Chuck " tied to the team? Chuck was from VA ow W VA too

How can anyone get that statement out of the following PRIVATE EMAIL..
........................
no possible connection?? open your eyes
====================================

JO, you initially tried to connect duane with skydivers, now you dont want this to happen. Why? I thinkin you only want duane to be "cooper" even if he may have been the assistant. why would you avoid the relationship of duane with other divers? this is the connection you were looking for... who is chuck

Anyone know a Chuck from the east coast?? VA?
...and from the past???


Anyone think there is a connection between duane and McCoy?

Jo, dont take me wrong, im exploring like you are

Hugs

Chuck


(This post was edited by low_pull1 on Feb 20, 2008, 6:44 PM)


skyjack71

Feb 21, 2008, 12:20 AM
Post #220 of 55598 (49026 views)
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Windsor, 377 and Sluggo [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I keep thinking of Werner Heisenberg's assessment of a student's work: "This isn't right. It isn't even wrong."

Great Posts from some very intelligent individuals..I feel like a fifth grade student in a college classroom. Overwhelmed, but the humor that went with it was absolutely the greatest - I am sitting here laughing after reading these posts. Thank You.

Low_pull, PLEASE get off of the subject of Chuck. I will say one more time, Duane did not meet him until "84 and he was all of 30 yrs old.

You remind me of an antagonistic overbearing poster called DBCooperCatcher from the Unsolved Mysteries forum, because you post like him and your PM's use the same syntax and typing style. Catcher was - the man who has accused one individual of being Cooper after he spent endless months in a forum saying McCoy was Cooper.

His posts were endless gibberish contributing nonething of value and being an antagonist was his only accomplishment. He became the worm in the apple ...and you know what was done with the apple?
It got tossed in the garbage.


(This post was edited by skyjack71 on Feb 21, 2008, 12:42 AM)


nigel99  (D 1)

Feb 21, 2008, 4:47 AM
Post #221 of 55598 (49012 views)
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Re: [winsor] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Simply that I've been there, done that, and don't buy most of the scenarios put forth in this forum.

Does this admission mean that we no longer need to question who Cooper was, but ask you how you pulled it off?Angelic


winsor  (D 13715)

Feb 21, 2008, 8:16 AM
Post #222 of 55598 (48982 views)
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Re: [nigel99] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Simply that I've been there, done that, and don't buy most of the scenarios put forth in this forum.

Does this admission mean that we no longer need to question who Cooper was, but ask you how you pulled it off?Angelic

All right, so I screwed up and didn't manage to keep the money.

Had I managed to hang on to $200k and invest it wisely, I could have funded a Major Motion Picture about the adventure by now.

Luckily, I was able to fabricate an alibi about being in Germany (with a "Parachutist" job description) at the time. I thought it was pretty clever.


Blue skies,

Winsor


Orange1  (B 2638)

Feb 21, 2008, 8:58 AM
Post #223 of 55598 (48972 views)
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Re: [low_pull1] Cooper vs. the Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anyone think there is a connection between duane and McCoy?

I certainly don't think it's any more far fetched than a number of other things that have been postulated here. And it wouldn't be the first time someone has been selective about choosing to see connections!


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 12:07 PM
Post #224 of 55598 (48941 views)
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Re: [skyjack71] Windsor, 377 and Sluggo [In reply to] Can't Post

  
When I re-read my last post (#217) it seemed to not have the tone I was shooting for.

I want to state to all posters and to winsor in particular, “I welcome disagreement”. If we are ever going to make sense of the Northwest Flight 305 November 24, 1971 hijacking, we have to speculate (or postulate) and allow for critical analysis of the post.

I hope I didn’t come across as a smart-ss, angry, or frustrated. The history of this subject on this site makes me want to be sure that the “tone” of my posts does not get misunderstood.

Thanx,
Sluggo_Monster


Sluggo_Monster

Feb 21, 2008, 12:19 PM
Post #225 of 55598 (48936 views)
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Re: [winsor] Take This Plane To Mexico [In reply to] Can't Post

 
As SafecrackerPLF was well aware, I am of the belief that there are very few (if any) facts in the Northwest Flight 305 hijacking of November 24th, 1971. (Notice I avoided the “C” word.) The closest things to “facts” we have are the statements made by the FBI (in general), Himmelsbach and Carr (specifically). I will hereafter refer to them as “Facts”.

So I thought it would be helpful to list the things that we all can agree on as facts. Here they are:

1. Someone calling himself Dan Cooper bought a ticket and then boarded Flight 305.

2. This “Dan Cooper” gave the stewardess (Cabin Attendant for the PC Police) a note saying he had a bomb and showed her something that “In the left corner had 8 long sticks of about 6 inches long and 1 inch in diameter there were two rows of them. Then a wire out of there. Then a batt lite (sic, probably like) a flashlight batt only as sthik (sic, probably thick) as my arm and eight inches long”. [From RTTY or TTY Log Page 104]

3. He asked for two front chutes and two back chutes and $200,000 cash, without designating bill size.

4. This “Dan Cooper” released all passengers at SEA and kept all but one crew member on board.

5. He received two main chutes and two reserve chutes (one of which was unusable).

6. He demanded the plane get airborne before ATC issued a clearance. Or possibly a clearance to Sacramento was issued.

7. He cut up one chute (a reserve) and used the parts to wrap the money and secure it to his body (or the rig).

8. He may have jumped from the plane at 2011 PST (based on “pressure bump”) or as late as 2015 PST. (Note 2011 would be about 5 NM North of the BTG VOR and 2015 would be about 2.5 SW of the BTG VOR. [Based on Flight Tracking Strip (Radar based) supplied by the FBI].

9. The FBI’s original assumed Drop Zone was re-assessed (in the last 5 years) and has been moved some 39 NM south.

10. The plane continued (with aft stairs still lowered) to Reno, NV where it landed safely. Cooper was not onboard.

11. On February 10, 1980, three packs of $20 dollar bills totaling $5,800 were found by an 8 year old boy who was digging along the Columbia River at Tena Bar, about 3 NM NE of where the flight (presumably without Dan Cooper) crossed the Columbia River.

12. His body was never reported found.

Have I left out anything that can be considered a “fact” in this case?




Sluggo_Monster


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