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D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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Ckret

Jan 30, 2008, 8:31 AM
Post #1551 of 1694 (3846 views)
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     Re: [Orange1] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

With regard to the Vietnam grudge he would have been to old, the thought here was a son KIA.

We already asked the military about jump conditions and their criteria for combat jumps. With the conditions on the 24th, the consensus was the mission would be scrubbed because the casualties from the jump would create a worse scenario on the ground, compounding the problem the mission was originally targeting.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 9:15 AM
Post #1552 of 1694 (3835 views)
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     Re: [Orange1] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

I suppose there's plenty of things the grudge could be.

If it were about the war, do you think Cooper would want to make that clear in some way?
Wouldn't he want to leave a newspaper that says "Thousands Die in Vietnam" or something along those lines? Or some type of military emblem if his beef was with the military itself? Or at least tell Tina "war is really a bad thing".. or "the military ruins people's lives"... but instead, he says "I just have a grudge"

I don't know, I'm just throwing that out there... because if he seriously has a grudge and he wants the other party to know, he'd let them know somehow. That's all I'm saying.

Maybe he was just a greedy person and he lied about having a grudge. Who's to say?

I want to make one thing a little more clear... it's not "me" who says it's not possible for money to wash down stream, but rather it's actually what we know that is saying that.

I've gone ahead and made a rough, very rough overview of Clark County with various "zones".
The zones are:
Lewis River
E. Fork Lewis
Salmon Creek
Vancouver Lake
Lake River
LaCamas Lake
and Washougal River

I've outlined them... Lake River is only labeled, it runs parallel to the Columbia and picks up the water from Salmon Creek and Vancouver lake. It adjoins the Columbia river at point "Y" on the map.
Point "X" is where the money was found.

The distance between the two is roughly 9.47 miles (a little longer if you count the curvature of the river)

Lewis River & E Fork zones both feed the Columbia together (because they merge before they get to the Columbia)... and this is even further north than point Y.

These are the only places where water meets up with the Columbia.

Therefore, we are truly restricted to these "zones".

Creeks & Streams are based on elevation and folds in the earth's crust... these do not change drastically in 30 years, they don't. They're relatively constant.

When I said the waterline of the Columbia has changed a lot since 79, it HAS... I'm talking about the shape of the beaches and such... the location of the Columbia itself has not changed at all.

The boundaries aren't exactly precise, but they will give you an idea of what we're looking at. Quite simply, if Cooper died upon impact or he lost the money on the way down, then the money absolutely must reach the LaCamas or Washougal zones.

I left the flight path drawn in for you.

I believe it was 377 that asked about Mt. St. Helens. I will tell you my understanding... most of the ash blew into eastern washington. Yakima looked as though it was nightime it was so thick.
There was ash in Clark County, but the winds and the direction of the blast blew it north and east. It was the north face of St. Helens that blew (see pic).

I'm not necessarily trying to justify Cooper's survival, it is really challenging to show him dying or losing the money... and by challenging I mean close to impossible unless we move the flight path.

I understand that money that shows up proves something: It proves Cooper did not spend the money that was found.

Which then leads to the question: Well, why would he not spend the money?

Which then leads to an ad-hoc answer: well, because he surely died.

What the evidence is suggesting to myself and to everyone else is that this giant leap of an answer has serious problems that cannot be resolved unless there's something significantly false (such as time of pressure bump or the plane was 5 miles east of its flight path).

Okay? I get it... it's really convenient to say Cooper probably died. Afterall, he did not spend $5800 worth of money that was found and it's a nice answer as to why.

What I'm pointing out is that this is the very definition of ad-hoc and the evidence clearly points the other way.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Jan 30, 2008, 9:50 AM)
Attachments: River Overview sm.jpg (296 KB)
  saint-helens.jpg (194 KB)


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 9:37 AM
Post #1553 of 1694 (3825 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Ckret,

Due to continued speculation about Cooper's survival, would it be too much to ask for some accurate flight path data? Either coordinates or more maps?

As I said earlier, we might be able to open up some possibilities if we can show the flight path to the east of where I was projecting it.


speedy

Jan 30, 2008, 9:59 AM
Post #1554 of 1694 (3818 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

On the map you just posted.....
Where on the flight path do we think the pressure bump occured? Between A and B would be enough.
Which direction are the winds blowing? At 10,000ft , 5000ft and the ground?
I have heard 30 mph winds but are they the ground winds or winds at 10,000 ft.
I assume you have positioned the map so the top is north. Maybe you could attach a kmz file so I could load it into google earth and get a feel for the distances myself.


377  (F 666)

Jan 30, 2008, 10:21 AM
Post #1555 of 1694 (3807 views)
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     F 106 chase planes [In reply to]  

 
FROM WIKIPEDIA:

"The F-106 was equipped with the Hughes MA-1 integrated fire-control system, which could be linked to the Semi-Automatic Ground Environment (SAGE) network for ground control interception (GCI) missions, allowing the aircraft to be steered by controllers."

Remember, F 106s were tasked with intercepting incoming enemy planes entering the US Air Defense Zone, back when Russian bombers were believed to pose a viable threat to the continental US. It was a fanatasic plane, way ahead of its time, but the intercept computing electronics were problematic.

Don't know if the F 106s chasing NWA 305 were under full SAGE control, probably not, but I bet that their GCI (ground controlled intercept) controllers giving them voice info were looking at precision radar which included height finding gear not present on normal ATC radar. ATC radar relies on altitude reporting aircraft transponders to get height info.

If we had height finding radar also painting the 727 that night then we have another chance of seeing a Cooper echo and it would be VERY distinct because of its unique changes in altitude, basically following a ballistic trajectory.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 10:47 AM
Post #1556 of 1694 (3800 views)
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     Re: [speedy] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Speedy,

The flight path goes from point D to point F (I skipped a point in between on this map because it didn't matter and I didn't want to clutter the image), it then goes to point BTG-VOR and then proceeds south of what this shows, to the RAWER intersection.

WGS 84 format that will work with Google Earth. I don't necessarily want to put the file on here because I have personal places on the globe that I may not want to make public (such as where I live, etc).

Points on FBI Map (thread pg 47)
D N 45 56 55.70 W 122 36 14.71
F N 45 51 32.23 W 122 37 08.31

Other points outlined on my map:
BTG VOR N 45 44 52.14 W 122 35 29.52
RAWER N 45 14 08.34 W 122 47 39.54

Pressure bump occured between Point D & maybe just after BTG-VOR. I personally think it was between Point D & Point F, but Ckret says it might be as late as 2015 that it happened.

The next locations are approximate, for example, I can tell you what beach the money was found, but not the exact place on the beach.
N 45 42 43.47 W 122 45 37.81 will give you the beach and approx location.

Lake River meets with the Columbia at about:
N 45 50 32.95 W 122 46 50.79

E Fork Lewis meets with the Lewis at about
N 45 51 57.50 W 122 43 10.72

The Lewis meets with the Columbia at about
N 45 51 13.17 W 122 46 47.66

The target zone as described in my post on Sunday,
LC 6 is the NW corner
N 45 43 43.47 W 122 32 58.74
LC7
N 45 43 10.33 W 122 33 05.51
LC9 (he pretty much has to land north of this based on winds and distance)
N 45 42 35.68 W 122 32 21.23

The known winds were posted by Ckret last week. I have a chart that shows them. At different altitudes, they blow in different directions... the directions are either 225 deg or 235 deg. The speed varies between 23 mph and 29 mph, but Ckret posted this in kts and I did a conversion since mph is how most people think.
The ground winds were 17 mph according to his post.

I did position the map towards north, the writing is sideways only because I made a quarter turn to do the screen capture, and then turned it back when I drew everything in.

Any other questions?


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Jan 30, 2008, 11:16 AM)


jonstark  (D 8298)

Jan 30, 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #1557 of 1694 (3778 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I suppose there's plenty of things the grudge could be.

To paraphrase a popular movie DB was probably familiar with, "Rebel Without a Cause", ...

Q: "Young man, what are you rebelling against."
A: (James Dean) "Whaddya got?"

You don't have to have a particular grudge to have a grudge. Why chase after such an unknown. This ain't novel writing. It's detective work which at this point should be about facts, undisputed, documented, duplicatable, provable facts. Ya'll seem to go off in all kinds of directions when there is any new speculation. Makes for fun reading but hard to stay focused on reality which can be disappointing. From what I have read here you don't have nor will you ever have enough evidence to prove or disprove his identity. (In my opinion)

jon


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 11:51 AM
Post #1558 of 1694 (3765 views)
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     Re: [jonstark] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

The goal isn't necessarily to determine his identity, at least not for me. I'm not sure this can ever be done... ever. But, I don't see a problem with talking out loud about what's known.

In the case of the flight path and creeks, that's about as close to a factual analysis as it can get.

As it looks now, Cooper lived. Which then leads to a question, or a few questions:
How does the money wash up?
Why does the money wash up?
Why does the money wash up when it does?

Personally, I think we might be able to at last paint a picture if we can talk some of this out... As Ckret said, the money is telling us a story.

There's nothing wrong with exploring the ins and outs to figure out as many "stories" that could possibly fit the evidence.
From there, people would have their own opinions, as they do now... the problem with what's going on now is that the evidence actually disproves a huge chunk of the theories that have held for 36 years.

I call that an advancement in the case, but maybe I'm biased... afterall, I did process the facts as they're laid out, so I'd have an opinion based on how much time I spent on it and what I know as a consequence.


Guru312  (C 6814)

Jan 30, 2008, 12:03 PM
Post #1559 of 1694 (3761 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

In reply to:
...

You can see once the weight was removed the stairs are back up into the plane which caused the pressure increase inside the aircraft.

The phrase "once the weight was removed" really doesn't make sense to me.

Unless my old brain is remembering physics incorrectly, air pressure is based on the cube of the velocity. At 200 mph the amount of pressure on the airstair without Cooper's weight or the sled weight would push the stairs back into the plane. Mechanical advantage by being on the very bottom of the steps could be enough to push the steps down.

I called a 727 pilot friend of mine who flies for DHL. When I told him of Ckret's pictures with the sled on the steps he said, "Makes no sense to me."

He explained that the stairs are moved up and down by the "B" hydraulic system mentioned. Hydraulics move the steps in both directions.

Possibly--he didn't know the answer to this--the stair system was modified after Cooper's jump around the time the Cooper vane was added.

If the pressure bump isn't the signature of his departure all the other issues such as opening altitude and wind speeds to tie the landing into the money location are pretty meaningless.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 12:22 PM
Post #1560 of 1694 (3747 views)
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     Re: [Guru312] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

There are two forces in question:

The force of gravity, pulling the stairs down.
The force of drag, pushing the stairs back

There's an equilibrium point somewhere in between.

Cooper's weight shifted the balance of this equilibrium and brought the stairs to their fully extended position (they aren't going to go straight down in a straight 180 degree direction)

Once his weight is gone, there will be "recoil" because the stairs are now severly over equilibrium. The recoil acts much the same way as a pendulum... the pendulum's natural position is to be 180 degrees or perpendicular to gravity... if you pull it 90 degress in either direction and then "remove" the force that is holding it there, it doesn't just go immediately to its 180 degree position... it has to balance by swinging 90 degrees the opposite direction, only upon it expending all it's energy (the force that had moved it to 90 degrees in the first place) through force of drag and force of friction will it finally settle into its natural state.

Likewise, the stairs, having been held beyond their equilibrium point, have to compensate by "swinging" up... it just so happened that this was enough to swing up into the fuselage.


speedy

Jan 30, 2008, 12:45 PM
Post #1561 of 1694 (3738 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

The forward throw from a 150 knot exit is about 1800 ft in the direction of flight. This is not the distance over the ground! But with 20 knot wind slightly from the left of the flight line it does not make much difference.

The wind drift in a no pull situation is about 2300 ft.

These are estimates, Kallend can do the real math.

If you know the flight path then the area where he bounced is some what limited.

I think that you (safecracking) already calculated that with an immediate pull he's only going to get max just over 4 miles drift with the canopy.
Instant Opening:
sink rate = 1000ft per min
Time in air = about 9 mins
forward throw in line of flight 1800 ft
wind drift on canopy 0.41 miles per minute on a heading of 225 to 235

Looking at your maps there is no way the money that was found could end up there unless the exit point was significantly later than the BTG VOR marker.

My guess is that the money got there by other means. Maybe someone found the money, they knew it was hot and stashed it somewhere and kept quiet. If you found 200k would you be willing to hand it back to the FBI. It was insured after all. So you carry it off and stash it some where and wait. and wait. Then come the floods Ckret mentioned and wash your little old hut away with the stash.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 12:58 PM
Post #1562 of 1694 (3731 views)
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     Re: [speedy] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quote:
My guess is that the money got there by other means. Maybe someone found the money, they knew it was hot and stashed it somewhere and kept quiet.

Speedy, you're on the money. The only correction I will say is that under 8:15 is only guessed. It's about 8:14:30 at BTG-VOR... somewhere around that time, it's very possible to make it to the target area if he jumps after the plane turns, he would jump somewhere around I-205. The problem is, this cures the angle, but then requires the distance, and at 17 mph surface winds and where he's landing (a farm) you REALLY have to get out there to say he died upon landing even though he opened his chute.

1800 feet forward throw... would this apply to a money bag as well? If so, there's no way in hell the money lands in the target area (which would have to be dropped right at BTG-VOR and then thrown towards the target area... but the angle of the path still puts it West of the target area by at least a mile, can 30mph winds really push a falling object east that far (we're talking less than 90 sec fall time)?

Like I said, you're on the money, no pun intended. The money, as it stands right now, is as conclusive as if someone HAD found a bill in circulation.... you can say Cooper probably spent it, but in reality, you only have proof that "someone" spent it.

Same thing here... someone has to move the money.

More likely than not, it was Cooper... but if we say Cooper died, then we're really saying someone found the body or at least the money and then moved it and never told a soul.

You still have to account to why it was found and why it was found when it was found and why it was found where it was found. Someone finding the money really wouldn't explain this unless they found it in 1979 and deemed it worthless and threw it in the river.

That's my take anyway. I'm glad you took the time to look... I'd love to have Kallend verify the trajectory/forward throw if Cooper loses the money in mid air.

My estimations of how far he can drift are generous... they assume he travels the same speed as the wind and not a hair slower.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Jan 30, 2008, 1:06 PM)




SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 1:26 PM
Post #1564 of 1694 (3708 views)
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     Re: [skyjack71] Debunk the OLD profile ATTENTION CKRET [In reply to]  

Quote:
One could conceivable place 17K on their person.
If he had a nylon waist pouch 5K more.

You are SERIOUSLY underestimating the amount of cash that can be stored in pockets.

Cooper has two coats: A rain coat and a business jacket. The raincoat pockets can easily fit two stacks each (400 bills) which amounts to 8,000. He can then put that much in his business suit pocket (2 stacks = 4,000). His raincoat will likely have an inside pocket as well, possibly two, each can fit at least 2 stacks... and he can fit up to 3 stacks in each of his pant pockets depending on how deep they are... my estimation of 2 stacks in the other pockets are also conservative.
A stack of cash might sound like a lot, but not really, especially if the rubberbands are tight.

Adding all of these together and we're talking about $20,000+... somewhere between $20,000 and $28,000 depending on the size and quantity of pockets.

I don't think he'd put much more than maybe the stack he offered Tina into a pocket before jumping... She'd see him doing this if he did. I personally think he had other items in his pockets (such as the demand note) He could stuff them on the ground or upon getaway.

Go to the bank and request several stacks of $1 bills. The bank straps really compress the money, so when you get home, put them in rubberbands... it will expand it, but not that much.
You will then see what I mean... you're way underestimating the amount of money. Cooper can walk away with close to $30,000 in his pockets, easy.

I didn't even count putting stacks behind his back between his shirt and belted slacks (where people often stuff guns)... another 4 to 6 stacks could go there. If he stuffs his pockets, he's walking away with close to 30k +/- depending on how many & size of pockets.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Jan 30, 2008, 2:10 PM)


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Jan 30, 2008, 2:03 PM
Post #1565 of 1694 (3679 views)
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     Rubber Bands [In reply to]  

Hey Ckret

Something Safecrack said got my attention. Usually when you get packets of money it has a paper wraping around it.

Is it confirmed that these $20 bill packets were wrapped with rubber bands before they were handed over to Cooper?

Unimpressed


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 30, 2008, 2:11 PM
Post #1566 of 1694 (3676 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Rubber Bands [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Hey Ckret

Something Safecrack said got my attention. Usually when you get packets of money it has a paper wraping around it.

Is it confirmed that these $20 bill packets were wrapped with rubber bands before they were handed over to Cooper?

Unimpressed



Isn't the paper is on when I comes from the reserve?

...since the #'s were recorded I doubt they put 'em back on.


(This post was edited by airtwardo on Jan 30, 2008, 2:12 PM)


SkydiveJack  (D 6486)

Jan 30, 2008, 2:21 PM
Post #1567 of 1694 (3667 views)
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     Re: [airtwardo] Rubber Bands [In reply to]  

In reply to:
In reply to:
Hey Ckret

Something Safecrack said got my attention. Usually when you get packets of money it has a paper wraping around it.

Is it confirmed that these $20 bill packets were wrapped with rubber bands before they were handed over to Cooper?

Unimpressed



Isn't the paper on when it comes from the reserve?

...since the #'s were recorded I doubt they put 'em back on.

I thought about that. But you don't necessarly need to break the bundles open to read the serial numbers. The paper wraping is around the center and the #'s are to the side of the bills. Anyway, it's just a thought and I was curious if it was confirmed that the Cooper money was handed over wrapped with rubber bands.

Ckret?


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 30, 2008, 3:48 PM
Post #1568 of 1694 (3630 views)
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     Re: [SkydiveJack] Rubber Bands [In reply to]  

My understanding is that they had to photograph the bills. To do this, they'd need to remove the straps. And load them into a machine.

Once they had all 10,000 bills photographed, the money was on its way and some FBI clerk probably had to sift through the pictures and manually type up the list of serial numbers.

It would be one of the biggest blunders in the history of criminal investigations if they had left the straps on the cash and then didn't think of this when the money found only had rubber bands. But, it's definitely worth asking just to make sure they took care of the obvious... Ckret, rubber bands or straps?


Sluggo_Monster

Jan 30, 2008, 5:39 PM
Post #1569 of 1694 (3590 views)
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     Re: [Zing] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

Quote:
Seems to me, the Mt. St. Helens eruption was far enough south of the suspected landing area that the changes in the geography wouldn't have covered, or uncovered any evidence of Cooper, but I can't say that for certain. Any one know?

Here's what I found. Also, Randal got less than 2 cm, so the Cooper landing zone would have gotten much less.

Sluggo_Monster
Attachments: map_may18_ash_path.gif (21.2 KB)
  may18_ashmap USA.gif (18.4 KB)


Sluggo_Monster

Jan 30, 2008, 5:53 PM
Post #1570 of 1694 (3583 views)
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     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Popular Cooper Myths Debunked [In reply to]  

There has been a persistent myth that the original suspected landing zone (up near Lake Merwin) was covered with 5 8 feet of ash and other ejecta after the 1980 Mt. St. Helens eruption. I must confess that I bought into it without question. My first visit to the area was in 1993 and I should have realized that it wasnt true then. Oh well! Now Ive got my head out of the sand.

Well, I guess the myth just is not true!

Sluggo_Monster


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jan 30, 2008, 6:12 PM
Post #1571 of 1694 (3579 views)
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     Re: [Guru312] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

In reply to:
He explained that the stairs are moved up and down by the "B" hydraulic system mentioned. Hydraulics move the steps in both directions.

Think about emergency egress in the event of a crash landing. I'm sure there is an emergency release to let the stairs drop via gravity.


Ckret

Jan 30, 2008, 6:44 PM
Post #1572 of 1694 (3569 views)
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     Re: [ryoder] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this.

The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered.


Ckret

Jan 30, 2008, 6:55 PM
Post #1573 of 1694 (3562 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

SCPLF, the flight path is what you have, the only detailed area of the flight path is of the area I provided. The rest of it is marked on maps and I can scan it when I get a chance, but it is not of the detail of the map I provided, it's just a map with a line on it and you have drawn the right line.

As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI.


Sluggo_Monster

Jan 30, 2008, 6:58 PM
Post #1574 of 1694 (3560 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

Quote:
The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand.

Please tell me that the amount of money (that was always on hand) was more than $200,000! And they just took out the requested $200,000 and sent it on its way.

If not.... well.... you know!

Sluggo_Monster


Ckret

Jan 30, 2008, 7:09 PM
Post #1575 of 1694 (3541 views)
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     Re: [Sluggo_Monster] Recovered Ransom [In reply to]  

Yes, they had more than $200,000.


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