Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows

 

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robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 29, 2008, 4:44 PM
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1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows Can't Post

i had my 1st malfunction this weekend down in Fl.. i was in the middle of an average sit fly when one of my buddies had caught my cutaway pillow with his foot while he was docking. he dislodged it from my harness in a downward fashion which also pulled the cables out about 6to8in(the wind didnt help much to keep them in either).

the reason i am posting this is because i really believe that if it wasnt for the hard insert in my cutaway handle, it wouldnt of happened. simply because of the fact that the pvc insert doesnt allow it to flex.

dont get me wrong, im not trying to say that it wont or cant happen without the hard inserts in there, but it definitely contributed.

to think what would have happened if it where my reserve pillow he kicked out instead of my cutaway. it would have been very ugly, if not tragic.

i can understand if you still keep your hard insert in your cutaway handle due to the tension factor that builds in certain malfunctions. but if you have a hard insert in your reserve handle i would be careful. im getting rid of mine before i jump it again.

by the way, my rig is fairly new with only a hand full of repacks, so i know that the velcro isnt worn out at all on the handles.

thats my 2cents -- Rob


(This post was edited by robconway on Jan 29, 2008, 4:53 PM)


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 4:59 PM
Post #2 of 58 (2779 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
to think what would have happened if it where my reserve pillow he kicked out instead of my cutaway. it would have been very ugly, if not tragic.

So how are you going to prevent that from happening?


robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 29, 2008, 5:04 PM
Post #3 of 58 (2774 views)
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Re: [skybytch] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

well, you can never prevent it from happening. but i think it would reduce your chances if you didnt have the insert in there.


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 5:24 PM
Post #4 of 58 (2747 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

So are you going to remove the hard insert from your reserve handle? If not, how are you going to prevent your reserve handle from being dislodged by someone's foot?


VTmotoMike08  (D 30399)

Jan 29, 2008, 5:39 PM
Post #5 of 58 (2725 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Can anyone comment authoritatively on if the reserve (pillow) handle is part of the TSO'd components of the rig and therefore cannot be modified unless by a master rigger?


rushmc  (No License)

Jan 29, 2008, 5:41 PM
Post #6 of 58 (2718 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can anyone comment authoritatively on if the reserve (pillow) handle is part of the TSO'd components of the rig and therefore cannot be modified unless by a master rigger?

Very good question


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 5:45 PM
Post #7 of 58 (2715 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can anyone comment authoritatively on if the reserve (pillow) handle is part of the TSO'd components of the rig and therefore cannot be modified unless by a master rigger?


I was thinking the same thing...

I don't believe you can modify a reserve handle...but you can just buy one without the insert...or get a 'real' one with a metal handle. Wink


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 5:46 PM
Post #8 of 58 (2714 views)
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Re: [VTmotoMike08] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Can anyone comment authoritatively on if the reserve (pillow) handle is part of the TSO'd components of the rig and therefore cannot be modified unless by a master rigger?

Yes. Some will say not even then, it's a factory manufacture item only.


AggieDave  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 6:51 PM
Post #9 of 58 (2662 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
dont get me wrong, im not trying to say that it wont or cant happen without the hard inserts in there, but it definitely contributed.

Funny, my first thought is to get friend to jump with that don't dock on your handles instead of trying to get a modified handle system that could compromise your ability to articulate the handles when you need them.

That seems like a simple solution, but that's just me.


robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 29, 2008, 6:59 PM
Post #10 of 58 (2650 views)
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Re: [skybytch] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

yes, i am removing the hard insert from my reserve handle.


robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:02 PM
Post #11 of 58 (2648 views)
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Re: [rushmc] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

i dont know about every manufacturer, but Wings would not let my rigger put an insert in my reserve handle; i had to order it from the factory. but, they did let my rigger put the insert into my cutaway handle.


rushmc  (No License)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:14 PM
Post #12 of 58 (2632 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
i dont know about every manufacturer, but Wings would not let my rigger put an insert in my reserve handle; i had to order it from the factory. but, they did let my rigger put the insert into my cutaway handle.

The manufacturer has the final say. They are the one that got the TSO and they understand the limits and requirements. If they WOULD NOT let your rigger remove the insert, you should not either. if they would not let your rigger put one in? You should not do that as well.


(This post was edited by rushmc on Jan 29, 2008, 7:15 PM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:27 PM
Post #13 of 58 (2622 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Funny, my first thought is to get friend to jump with that don't dock on your handles instead of trying to get a modified handle system that could compromise your ability to articulate the handles when you need them.

That seems like a simple solution, but that's just me.

I think that this is a really good point of thought


bclark  (D 22626)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:36 PM
Post #14 of 58 (2613 views)
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Re: [labrys] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Funny, my first thought is to get friend to jump with that don't dock on your handles instead of trying to get a modified handle system that could compromise your ability to articulate the handles when you need them.

That seems like a simple solution, but that's just me.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In reply to:
I think that this is a really good point of thought.


I concur!


diablopilot  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:49 PM
Post #15 of 58 (2600 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
yes, i am removing the hard insert from my reserve handle.

Really? So what is your reserve cable going to attach to?


Premier skybytch  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:51 PM
Post #16 of 58 (2599 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Funny, my first thought is to get friend to jump with that don't dock on your handles instead of trying to get a modified handle system that could compromise your ability to articulate the handles when you need them.

Geez, Dave. There I was trying to lead him to realizing for himself that maybe the real issue wasn't gear related and you go and put it out there... Wink


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 29, 2008, 7:55 PM
Post #17 of 58 (2589 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Really? So what is your reserve cable going to attach to?

Couldn't it attach to the .... ummmm ..... you know? ... the ummmm.....

You know what I mean... it'll attach to the .... ummm....


airtwardo  (D License)

Jan 29, 2008, 8:09 PM
Post #18 of 58 (2579 views)
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Re: [labrys] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Really? So what is your reserve cable going to attach to?

Couldn't it attach to the .... ummmm ..... you know? ... the ummmm.....

You know what I mean... it'll attach to the .... ummm....

Thingie...of course!


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 29, 2008, 8:25 PM
Post #19 of 58 (2570 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

I have been told the reason that soft reserve handles came into use is that (especially in FL where there are grass landing areas) people would frequently jump barefoot, and launching a sit-train there were instances where someones toe would get caught in the (hard) reserve handle, subsequentially "zapping" them. this seems to be a "similar" case and would indicate a completely soft reserve pillow as the "optimal" solution,
<disclamer> I'm not an instructor, rigger or have any qualifications whatsoever, plus I'm an asshole</disclamer>


(This post was edited by jsaxton on Jan 29, 2008, 8:30 PM)


jsaxton  (D 26818)

Jan 29, 2008, 8:40 PM
Post #20 of 58 (2561 views)
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Re: [skybytch] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Give the kid some credit, at least he's THINKING about how the gear works!


Zing  (D 6343)

Jan 29, 2008, 9:36 PM
Post #21 of 58 (2542 views)
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Re: [jsaxton] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like he might also be suggesting that he's going to, and that other people should, too, modify their rigs into something that might not work.

I distinctly recall hearing a well respected master rigger tell a friend of mine that his new rig didn't need that extra backstrap on the lower harness the manufacturer put on. And hotknifed it off.
It was sewed right back on the rig after the first jump post removal when Lowjones found himself hanging upside down by his knees from the legstraps when he fell out of the upper harness.


robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 29, 2008, 10:06 PM
Post #22 of 58 (2530 views)
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Re: [rushmc] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

let me clarify, im not removing the hard insert from my reserve handle, nor is my rigger. i still have the original reserve handle that doesnt have the insert in it and i am going to swap it out. to have it removed, i would have to send it back to the factory.

i know what you guys are saying when you think im talking about removing the insert that the cable connects to. that is not what i am talking about. this is a piece of pvc that they use for their insert.

that kinda responds to a couple other posts in here. wings pillows dont have the long cylindrical shaped metal insert that connects to the cable. my rigger told me how it is connected, but im not even going to attempt to explain it.


(This post was edited by robconway on Jan 29, 2008, 10:47 PM)


robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 29, 2008, 10:13 PM
Post #23 of 58 (2525 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

it is kinda funny, before posting i told my buddy someone was going to say that exact same thing.


DougH  (D License)

Jan 30, 2008, 1:32 AM
Post #24 of 58 (2464 views)
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Re: [robconway] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

Funny, maybe you had a point. How many prematures and mals has the top VRW teams had from this sort of thing. Surely if it was a common problem they would run into it often no?


robconway  (C 36060)

Jan 30, 2008, 6:28 AM
Post #25 of 58 (2400 views)
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Re: [DougH] 1st malfunction--probably due to hard inserts in pillows [In reply to] Can't Post

i cant comment on how many premature openings they've had or malfunctions cuz i have no idea. and i wouldnt go as far to say that it is a "common" problem cuz i doubt this happens often, but it does happen. ive jumped with that guy hundreds of times and it never happened before. it was an accident, and accidents happen. all you can do is take steps to make sure it doesnt happen again.


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