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D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

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awsee1  (Student)

Jan 22, 2008, 9:48 PM
Post #1326 of 1694 (3659 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

In reply to:

Can you hear that sucking sound, listen closely, put your ear to the screen. Thats the sound of energy being sucked into a never ending void.

Ok so you share our frustration with this case. Radical departure from anything I've heard to date from the 3 letter Hoover acronym. I've got to say Ckret, this is definitely a GOOD thing. Maybe you're on the level. I've reviewed the H-bach chronicles and I'm more frustrated than ever.

I've said it before, many times...Sumpin' is wrong here.


Bren


(This post was edited by awsee1 on Jan 22, 2008, 9:58 PM)


ltdiver  (D 20506)

Jan 22, 2008, 10:02 PM
Post #1327 of 1694 (3646 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

If you look at the "Teams and Records" picture of the team "Perrisites", you'll see vintage 1971 gear. No wrist altimeters seen, but if you look hard enough you'll see altimeters on the gear itself.

http://www.ParachuteHistory.com/men/fieldings.html

edit to add: If you look at Al and Bud Krueger's gear they have yet to connect their belly wart reserves. Earlier in this thread they were discussing exactly what the "reserve D-rings" were. Well, take a look and see them on the front webbing of the brother's gear. The others had their reserve packs on for this picture.

ltdiver


(This post was edited by ltdiver on Jan 22, 2008, 10:44 PM)


377  (F 666)

Jan 22, 2008, 10:33 PM
Post #1328 of 1694 (3636 views)
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     Re: [ltdiver] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

Right you are. Not a wrist mount alt in sight.

Chest mounted reserves and a Twin Beech. The old memories are coming back. The surplus gear I jumped back then had a distinctive smell to it, probably some chemical they put in the Nylon webbing. Those were fun days. You could get a full rig used for $50. I did just that and lived to tell the story.

What did the Mt St Helens eruption do to the landscape where Cooper likely landed? Did it burn up the forest? Did it lay down a few feet of ash? Or was it mostly undisturbed?


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 23, 2008, 7:08 AM
Post #1329 of 1694 (3578 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

Quote:
What did the Mt St Helens eruption do to the landscape where Cooper likely landed? Did it burn up the forest? Did it lay down a few feet of ash? Or was it mostly undisturbed?

It was the north face of the mountain that blew. Mt. St. Helens is also well to the NE of the areas we're talking about. If Mt. St. Helens erupting destroyed Cooper or evidence, then we're way off... and by way off, I actually mean he would have landed at minimum 20 to 30 miles to the north, and thus, the money would only be explained by him moving it... which would lead us back to him not dying, which would make the whole Mt. St. Helens thing circular and impossible.

Sorry for the mental stretching on that, I guess the simple answer is no, St. Helens could not have harmed the remains. Interesting though that the money showed up about 2 months before it erupted.

Ckret, I wouldn't worry about energy sucking out. I was only hoping that we could find something that would give us more reliable information. Anything that you can find would be helpful... anything. I'm in the middle of outlining the Washougal tributaries for you... don't know when I will finish.


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 23, 2008, 7:18 AM
Post #1330 of 1694 (3568 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Not a wrist mount alt in sight

They hadn't been shopping in the Paragear 1969 Catalog.
Attachments: altimaster.jpg (54.6 KB)


dumstuntzz

Jan 23, 2008, 7:57 AM
Post #1331 of 1694 (3552 views)
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     Re: [JerryBaumchen] 2000 trip [In reply to]  

which one did cooper use, a 26' or 28 ' canopy??i have seen both mentioned here.which is it??


BGill  (D 28834)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:06 AM
Post #1332 of 1694 (3545 views)
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     Re: [dumstuntzz] 2000 trip [In reply to]  

In reply to:
which one did cooper use, a 26' or 28 ' canopy??i have seen both mentioned here.which is it??

28'. SafecrackingPLF mistakenly said 26' on a few occasions but then corrected himself after rereading Ckret's post about canopy size.


BillyVance  (D 18895)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:06 AM
Post #1333 of 1694 (3540 views)
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     Re: [itllclear] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

I fail to see how an altimeter was going to help him if he did have one. I just think there are too many variables to make one dependable - terrain elevation changes, cabin air pressurization, night jump, etc.


BGill  (D 28834)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:15 AM
Post #1334 of 1694 (3531 views)
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     Re: [BillyVance] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I fail to see how an altimeter was going to help him if he did have one. I just think there are too many variables to make one dependable - terrain elevation changes, cabin air pressurization, night jump, etc.

True, it wouldn't be dependable, but if you were going to make a jump, just out of force of habit wouldn't you want one, just in case? I would, but that is just my gut reaction, and it could have been Cooper's as well.


dumstuntzz

Jan 23, 2008, 8:17 AM
Post #1335 of 1694 (3528 views)
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     Re: [BGill] 2000 trip [In reply to]  

if i recall, ckret said coopper jumped with an nb6 which is a 26 foot canopy.


BGill  (D 28834)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:29 AM
Post #1336 of 1694 (3519 views)
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     Re: [dumstuntzz] 2000 trip [In reply to]  

In reply to:
if i recall, ckret said coopper jumped with an nb6 which is a 26 foot canopy.

In post #708 of this thread Ckret states "In Cossey's statement to the FBI on 11/26/1971, 4th paragraph "...he described the missing back pack parachute as having a sage green nylon container, model NB6 with sage green nylon harness, which harness has no "D" rings to mount a chest pack." "

and in #710 he states " 26' canopy, made by Steinthal, model 60-9707. "

I don't know these types of canopies, so I can't distinguish the differences, if any.


377  (F 666)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:34 AM
Post #1337 of 1694 (3511 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

Safecracking PLF:

Was the door placard find verified (was the NWA 727 missing the placard when it landed)? If so map the placard find point. Now map the money find point. Draw a line between them. Does the line match the plane course during estimated jump run? If not, then move the money point until it does. Is the moved money point located such that the money could have migrated from the new moved point to the actual find point by natural means? This assumes a lot, but is worth plotting. Results?


itllclear  (D 6366)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:44 AM
Post #1338 of 1694 (3501 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
He ordered that the plane fly at 10,000 feet,

Something to think about with respect to suspects.

Skydivers would think of 12,500 as a familiar altitude. 10,000 wasn't a common sport jump altitude. 9,500 or 10,500 maybe (out of a 182), but not 10,000.

Also, for FAR part 91, 12,500 is the highest continuous altitude for flight without O2. However, for the military, I believe the altitude is a more conservative 10,000.

Suggesting to me a military loadmaster who was schooled to use O2 if they were dropping things from the tailgate and the plane was going above 10,000.

Someone who knew about lowering the tailgate of a plane and had watched HALO jumpers, but without sport, or maybe any actual, jump experience.

Also, someone who was not a licensed civilian pilot knowledgeable of FAR's.

Unless a sport jumper was trying to throw people off the trail, he would ask for "mains" and "Reserves" rather than "front" and "back" parachutes.

Get out the military records to find all of the servicemen who fit that description.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 23, 2008, 8:46 AM
Post #1339 of 1694 (3499 views)
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     Re: [377] Placard [In reply to]  

377,

That's a good idea.

Unfortunately my knowledge of the placard is fairly limited:
It was found somewhere in Cowlitz County, up in the woods (it's very hilly in some parts there). The person who found it was out hunting with some friends (I believe) and one of their habits was to collect trash that they'd find while out. Well, he found the placard but didn't think about it much, he folded it up like it was a candy wrapper and put it in his flannel shirt pocket. When they were done for the day, they went to throw away any trash and he unfolded it and read what it said: (it was torn)
"ERGENCY
IT HANDLE
Aft Airstair
To Operate

Access Door, Pull on R
dle. Lock wire will bre
hen handle is pulled"

He thought it looked important, especially since almost everyone in this area was familiar with the Cooper case.
I don't know about NWA confirming it, but from what I know, the FBI confirmed it to be from flight 305.

Maybe Ckret can give us a map location for this find... all I have is that it was "near" Toutle.


SKYWHUFFO  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 8:49 AM
Post #1340 of 1694 (3495 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

The plaque from the steps would be a flat piece of tin. In the wind aloft it would be like a wing and could float every which way for a long ways.

Safe,

can you answer this, I was reading a piece that they said
" Coincidentally, Cooper himself probably copied a similar hijacking that occurred two weeks before his endeavor."
What one were they refering to? Mccoy was 4 weeks AFTER Cooper.
OK conspiracy theory question. 3 Copy cats or planned together? What do you think?

Task force agent #3


(This post was edited by SKYWHUFFO on Jan 23, 2008, 9:04 AM)


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 23, 2008, 8:55 AM
Post #1341 of 1694 (3491 views)
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     Re: [itllclear] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

That's an impressive post.

If we can bank on what you're saying, then it would certainly point towards military jumper and not a pilot (as has been theorized) nor a sport jumper (which has also been theorized). Another thing that would point away from a sport jumper is that he did not request any particular type of chute, and the one he got could not steer... and apparently, he was okay with this when Tina mistakenly told him his chutes were coming from McCord.
This would also tend to point AWAY from help on the ground or a very detailed & planned escape route.

Frankly, your post, if we can rely on what you're saying (and it would sound that way, but I'm totally blind to this stuff), then we've narrowed Cooper's profile significantly.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 23, 2008, 9:01 AM
Post #1342 of 1694 (3487 views)
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     Re: [SKYWHUFFO] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

I don't know what material it was made of... all I know is what the person who found it said, that he folded it up and put it in his shirt pocket. Sounds more like a sticker to me if this is the case, unless flat tin can bend easily.

I'm unaware of prior jumps or similar heists, other than McCoy's. I've seen the same pages on the internet that you're referring to, and I don't know anything more than you do.

Maybe Cooper was a copycat, but I would think he spent more than 2 weeks thinking about this. If something similar happened two weeks earlier, then I'm guessing it's pure coincidence. There were hijackings before Cooper, but my understanding was that Cooper's was the first in U.S. airspace, which, if my understanding is correct, would mean that internet page has their facts wrong... but what do I know?

Conspiracy angle:
Well, I'm shooting from the hip here... McCoy was in college. He was involved somewhere in the military, so if there was a "conspiracy" that's where I'd expect to see it... military associates. Cooper himself, from the sounds of it, was of military background somewhere in his life. McCoy's jump was much more thought out than Coopers, but if they knew each other, then maybe McCoy really did "learn"from Cooper (and I'm sure he did, it was a pretty good blue print to follow)...
McCoy, I believe, brought his own gear. He grew out his facial hair and then shaved in the lavratory before he jumped. I'm not sure, but I think he had a specific escape route planned out. If these things are true, they're all improvements....
Now we don't know anything about this alledged first jump two weeks prior to Cooper's, but if we had more info, maybe we could look into the "conspiracy" angle more. Military buddies... that's the only I way I think.


(This post was edited by SafecrackingPLF on Jan 23, 2008, 9:09 AM)


Orange1  (B 2638)

Jan 23, 2008, 9:06 AM
Post #1343 of 1694 (3481 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Frankly, your post, if we can rely on what you're saying (and it would sound that way, but I'm totally blind to this stuff), then we've narrowed Cooper's profile significantly.

to like... er.. christiansen. Tongue

Another theory to throw into the mix... about the money. The 2 assumptions have been either (1) cooper lost the money and it landed in the water and then all the debate about post-1974, etc or (2) he kept it. Is it at all possible that he lost all or some, it landed near but not in the water and got stuck in... something.. until a storm or whatever dislodged it? Maybe a wild theory, but I've seen wilder on here Wink


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 23, 2008, 9:13 AM
Post #1344 of 1694 (3477 views)
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     Re: [Orange1] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

Quote:
to like... er.. christiansen.

Exactly. Or anyone else that has some military experience and would have that particular frame of reference.

Quote:
Is it at all possible that he lost all or some, it landed near but not in the water and got stuck in... something

I'd say of course this sounds viable. Until we bumped out the timeline of the jump I thought it was not possible that he "lost" money in the air... but if this happened or not, the money that turned up, at the very least would be money left behind or lost.... if not just part of the entire loot if Cooper really died.


Ckret

Jan 23, 2008, 9:31 AM
Post #1345 of 1694 (3465 views)
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     Re: [Orange1] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

Because of the condition the money was found in it had to be all or nothing, either he lost the money bag in the jump with the money still tightly bound in it or he survived and hide the bag of money or he died with the money in the bag by his side.

Two or three weeks before Cooper's jump a guy tried to bail from a plane (not a 727) but the crew took him out with an ax.

Normally the NB6 is a 26' foot canopy. The reports state it was an NB6 with a 28' canopy. This could have been a mistake on the agents part when he wrote the report.


377  (F 666)

Jan 23, 2008, 9:43 AM
Post #1346 of 1694 (3456 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

I think NB6 refers to the container which could hold any suitably sized canopy.


SafecrackingPLF

Jan 23, 2008, 11:04 AM
Post #1347 of 1694 (3422 views)
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     Re: [Ckret] Condition of the Bills [In reply to]  

Quote:
Because of the condition the money was found in it had to be all or nothing

I hear what you're saying. I was speaking in general terms... you're speaking specifically. The condition of the money absolutely shows some level of protection from the elements. Sure, they were weathered bills, but they were also out there somewhere for about 8 years. EIGHT YEARS!

This isn't the desert, folks. This is the NW where you drive around and see roof tops and siding riddled with moss, and where real estate contracts almost always have "mold" disclosures. The very fact that any of those bills were legible only shows how miraculous the find was.

Therefore, the likely conclusion is that the money was protected by the money bag itself. Personally, I'm open to the idea that it could be sheltered by more than just a money bag. It would depend on where it's stored, but if the money bag is out in the elements, water would soak through to the money and it would be rotting almost immediately... but this is a better theory than a money bag sinking to the bottom of a river and then trying to explain how it suddenly floats to the surface.

If the "protection" is only the canvas bag, I think the money would fare better if it were suspended from a tree limb than if it were sitting on the ground somewhere, simply because the bag can dry out easier. Plus, a tree would give it some additional shelter from the rain.


ryoder  (D 6663)

Jan 23, 2008, 11:26 AM
Post #1348 of 1694 (3404 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I think NB6 refers to the container which could hold any suitably sized canopy.

http://books.google.com/...FI8aUh8Ayc#PPA176,M1


skydogs  (D License)

Jan 23, 2008, 11:30 AM
Post #1349 of 1694 (3400 views)
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     Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Condition of the Bills [In reply to]  

Anyone know if the material used for the round parachute rots? (I think it's Lo-po vs F111.) Anyway, I would think that nylon would be pretty rot resitant. Cooper could have wrapped the bundles in the parachute?


(This post was edited by skydogs on Jan 23, 2008, 11:30 AM)


dumstuntzz

Jan 23, 2008, 11:52 AM
Post #1350 of 1694 (3383 views)
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     Re: [377] Did Cooper have a wrist altimeter? [In reply to]  

nb6 stands for NavyBack26 ft.i Seriously doubt you could get a 28 ft canopy into an nb6 ,it is just too small a container. a 28 ft canopy goes into the NB8.

also did cooper open the nb6?

it would have been difficult for him to reclose the container without special tools

anyone familiar with the navy back(NB)containers knows that the #3 locking cone is actually in the base of the pilotchute.when packing the NB series of containers one must compress the pilot chute till the cone is showing thru the grommet in the top of the pilotchute,then you must use a temporary pin(in the lower of 2 holes in the cone) to hold the p.c compressed.usualy a tube like tool is used to line the cone up with the grommet and to keep fabric out of the way as the p.c is compressed. but i would think it is almost a necesity to use the temporary pin,otherwise closing the container is really difficult.


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