Forums: Skydiving: Skydiving History & Trivia:
D B Cooper Unsolved Skyjacking

 

First page Previous page 1 ... 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 ... 68 Next page Last page  View All





Ckret

Jan 1, 2008, 1:02 AM
Post #803 of 1694 (3465 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Zing] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Zing, what do you base your belief on that Cooper lived and walked out of the forest with $200,000 dollars?


(This post was edited by Ckret on Jan 1, 2008, 1:07 AM)


Ckret

Jan 1, 2008, 1:04 AM
Post #804 of 1694 (3464 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [labrys] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I think your absolutly right labrys, Cooper didn't have the skill or know how to survive the jump, he thought he could and was willing to give it a try for $200,000.


stratostar  (Student)

Jan 1, 2008, 7:54 AM
Post #805 of 1694 (3440 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

All you can show is a couple of stacks of cash from the night in question and the feds say it washed down stream, I don't think so. You find me what is left of a body and some old parachute shit hanging in a tree or in a pile on the forest floor covering the bones, or even the rest of the money any other proof you got that says that cooper isn't sitting on a beach sipping on a cool one and burning a big fatty someplace where the weather is great year round and the "powers that be" are on the take or easy to payoff.

Till then, ya got nothing that says that he didn't make it out.

I bet it was one of your (US GOV) drug mules from SE Asia who made it out of the black operations in cambodia or one of those "other" places we didn't fight the war......LOL, and this special forces dude came home pissed off and hooked on that good dope the US Gov. and their allies in SE Asia were moving to "pay for" the war. 200K would by a lot of smack back then if you knew who's general to go get it from.

And seeing how I know a handful of guys who were in "those countries" (but their records say different) that is not all that far fetched...... about as far fetched as DB Cooper couldn't have made it out, that is.


(This post was edited by stratostar on Jan 1, 2008, 11:43 AM)


labrys  (D 29848)

Jan 1, 2008, 8:35 AM
Post #806 of 1694 (3430 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Quote:
I think your absolutly right labrys, Cooper didn't have the skill or know how to survive the jump, he thought he could and was willing to give it a try for $200,000.

Well.... I didn't actually mean to suggest that I thought it wasn't survivable, Ckret. I just meant to say that I don't think it's that necessary to look for someone with a lot of jumping experience. Since I'm a newer jumper with no experience on rounds my opinion is open to a lot of question, I guess.

Then again, having never jumped a round, would I jump from a jet at night over unknown territory for a million dollars or so (taking the value of the 200K into today's terms)?

Yeah, I probably would. Hell, it's a chance but it doesn't seem that terrible. I know how to PLF (something everyone learns for their first jump), I've seen a number of people land in tress without significant injury... yeah. I'd do it.


bozo  (D 10154)

Jan 1, 2008, 8:46 AM
Post #807 of 1694 (3422 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
Zing, what do you base your belief on that Cooper lived and walked out of the forest with $200,000 dollars?


As I have said before and I think the old guys here will agree. This jump was entirely doable even for someone with limited skills.

Ever wonder why one segment of smokejumpers still uses rounds ? They are great for tree landings. Cooper took a shot......jumped...walked out, called a bud or his girlfriend ,who was in the area, and if hes still alive at his advanced age,is enjoying this immensely.

You keep asking us for proof , Ckret , we keep telling you , you are full of shit and that this jump was easily done and surviveable.

Let me turn the table....you show some "proof" it wasnt.
As Stratostar said....lets see some bones...harness material or canopy. Heres a bit of "proof" the harness canopy could have survived 36 years in the forest.
I offer the WWII airmans bodies they keep finding on that glacier year after year.....with intact parachute gear on their bodies. This plane went down in 42.


(This post was edited by bozo on Jan 1, 2008, 8:57 AM)


dumstuntzz

Jan 1, 2008, 9:13 AM
Post #808 of 1694 (3412 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Zing] 2003 post [In reply to]  

just out of curiosity's sake, did the FBI ever record the serial numbers of the gear that was used?? us riggers do keep logbooks and MAYBE some of the gear found its way back into use?


SwampThing  (D License)

Jan 1, 2008, 9:31 AM
Post #809 of 1694 (3407 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [dumstuntzz] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
just out of curiosity's sake, did the FBI ever record the serial numbers of the gear that was used?? us riggers do keep logbooks and MAYBE some of the gear found its way back into use?


Somebody check Guru's closet? AngelicWink


Ckret

Jan 1, 2008, 10:27 AM
Post #810 of 1694 (3392 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [bozo] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I don't think I ever asked for proof, I asked you and anyone else that has a theory to state what they based their belief on. What evidence did you use to come to your conclusions and how did you logically get there.


To answer your question Bozo, I know this jump was survivable because many have done it, not under the conditions and equipment used by Cooper, but did it and walked away without a scratch.

"Cooper walked out called a friend and lived off the money." what do you base that on? I don't need proof, but something more than a statement.

My main goal for being here is not to debate theory on Cooper but to supply you information from the case files about the investigation and hopefully gain information back from you.

When I ask a question about a persons theory it's not to debate or challenge but to gain insight as to how you arrived at your conclusion and see the case from another perspective.

Like wise, if you have questions as to how I arrived at my conclusions ask away. The last go around about the chutes and money I learned several things from some of you that helped, especially about he the found money. It made me go back dig in the files and rethink my theory.

Above all as we progress in this case, lets keep things constructive. Because I put something out about the case it does not mean it is set in stone. i am trying to get people back into it and come to the table with skill and science that may one day solve it. Had i not gone to the public or you folks there would be no chance of that happening.


Ckret

Jan 1, 2008, 10:29 AM
Post #811 of 1694 (3391 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [dumstuntzz] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Yes we have the serial numbers and interviewd the rigger. One chute was returned to it's owner, two were never found and one is in evidence.


Guru312  (C 6814)

Jan 1, 2008, 1:48 PM
Post #812 of 1694 (3355 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Zing] 2003 post [In reply to]  

In reply to:
I could go on, but still I think Cooper's hijack plan was much better thought out than the FBI and a lot of jumpers choose to believe. I also think it more likely that he survived the jump than that he bounced.

I have thought much about this whole issue and I agree with Zing that it was thought out, but I don't know how well.

As with anything being done for the first time, one can't always anticipate the difficulties and the consequences---Murphy's Law is always there, lurking, Zing.

Where I see the planning being less than needed is with the issue I've read here recently about DB cutting up a rig to tie the money to his body. Am I correct that the FA told of DB securing the money to his body with line from one of the rigs?

If he did, in fact, tie the money to his body, I think this was his biggest error. I've made lots of jumps with equipment of various sorts and carrying, or attempting to carry, objects in freefall.

Can someone clarify or speculate "how" he actually tied the money to himself?

In my opinion, it is NOT a trivial issue to improvise a secure method for doing this. What tools/equipment did he use? Cutting nylon cloth and suspension line is not an easy task with good scissors or a sharp-edged tool. In the galley of the aircraft, or on the floor, is not an easy place to wrap the money securely and then secure the package to his body. What was the package like and how was it secured to his body?

He knew that the aft door could be opened in flight--HALO jumps were being made by Special Forces from 727s at that time--so that's pretty easy to accomplish. What I can't visualize is how he exited.

Any non-symmetrical body position--such as he'd have if he tried to hold the package as he pulled the ripcord--is going to exacerbate the turbulence and burbles which would tug at the package.

In my advert I used the words "...holding the attache case in freefall" I wrote that ad ten minutes after hearing a news broadcast about the hijacking. The news blurb that I heard mentioned that he jumped with the money in an attache case. Now, I find that he left his attache case and the fake bomb on the plane but with the money tied to his body somehow.

Bottom line: I think that--if he lived--he lost the package from the aerodynamic forces that tugged at the totally improvised tie-job. Even an experienced jumper would have difficulty staying stable while contending with forces on the precious payload package. I'd guess the money was ripped from his body...and he was left with nothing but a cool story to tell.


Ckret

Jan 1, 2008, 2:41 PM
Post #813 of 1694 (3340 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Guru312] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Cooper cut cords with a pocket knife and used the pieces to bind the canvass bag the money came in. He never used any pieces of the canopy. Mucklow stated that she saw Cooper securing the money bag with more cut pieces of cord around his waist.

Cooper knew the air stairs could be opened in flight but he was wrong as to how they opened and knew little to nothing of their operation.

He did not leave the briefcase on the plane, it has never been found.


mccurley  (E 663)

Jan 1, 2008, 5:48 PM
Post #814 of 1694 (3303 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Quote:
I don't think I ever asked for proof, I asked you and anyone else that has a theory to state what they based their belief on. What evidence did you use to come to your conclusions and how did you logically get there.

I started on military surplus rounds in 73, and I can tell you from personal experiance, landing in a tree or two is very doable and without injury!!!
I would repeat what oter posters have said, implied, and hinted at and say you show us proof he didn't make it.
Proving he could have has been demonstrted by everyone who ever landed in a tree and walked away.
Out of the and at night??? Not that big a challeng I believe.


low_pull1

Jan 1, 2008, 6:54 PM
Post #815 of 1694 (3294 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [mccurley] 2003 post [In reply to]  

landing in a tree was half the problem:

staying warm through the night was the other problem. ive slep in 20F while only using a canopy (Dry F111). stayed toasy warm. Is it possible to stay warm in wet material from a cheapo ....i believe so but am not sure. im thinking one would be warm...but still wet.

any experience sleeping in an older wet canopy?

anyone want to try? fbi man??


(This post was edited by low_pull1 on Jan 1, 2008, 7:15 PM)


leroydb  (D 25743)

Jan 1, 2008, 7:06 PM
Post #816 of 1694 (3283 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [bozo] 2003 post [In reply to]  

this was on AOL...

Quote:
FBI Makes New Bid to Find 1971 Skyjacker
Posted: 2008-01-01 17:36:50
Filed Under: Crime News, Nation News
PORTLAND, Ore. (Jan. 1) - The FBI is making a new stab at identifying mysterious skyjacker Dan Cooper, who bailed out of an airliner in 1971 and vanished, releasing new details that it hopes will jog someone's memory.

The man calling himself Dan Cooper, also known as D.B. Cooper, boarded a Northwest flight in Portland for a flight to Seattle on the night of Nov, 24, 1971, and commandeered the plane, claiming he had dynamite.

and

Quote:
Who Was
D.B. Cooper?5 of 5 A number of people have claimed to be D.B. Cooper over the years -- notably, a man named Duane L. Weber whose deathbed confession inspired a July 2000 U.S. News and World Report article. The FBI ruled him out as a suspect after cross-referencing his genetic profile with DNA left on the clip-on tie Cooper wore during the heist. Source: AP


(This post was edited by leroydb on Jan 1, 2008, 7:07 PM)


Ckret

Jan 1, 2008, 7:24 PM
Post #817 of 1694 (3273 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [mccurley] 2003 post [In reply to]  

no one can prove anything thing until we either find his bones or he comes out of hiding and tells his story.

We can, however, look at the totality of the facts we do have and come to a logical investigative theory as to what happened.

Taking one or two pieces of the investigation and developing a theory isn't going to set a successful course. One must start from the beginning to end, weigh all of the facts and see where they point.

The question is not could someone make the jump, of course the jump is possible. The question is knowing everything we know about Cooper, the equipment and the conditions, did DB Cooper make the jump on 11/24/1971 and did DB Cooper make it out of the forest with the money and off to live his life?

By the way, the main focus of the investigation to date has been on the living, that has not worked. Over 1000 people have been looked at and not one was risen to the surface.






bigway

Jan 1, 2008, 10:21 PM
Post #820 of 1694 (3221 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

CKRET-

After reading all of this and very interested in your posts, I am positive that you are the one and only government official who is dedicating their life to this case, Kind of like you legacy., I also see from your posts and how long it took for you to actually aknowledge Joe Weber in this thread.

This tells me that you have been exausted by her in the past before coming to this forum with your knowledge. It is then confirmed that you are exausted when she states that you did not return her phone call.

Now, I respect Jo and i think you need to lose your emotional side to this case and your previous experience with jo and look again.

For an old lady to come to a 'modern' way of life (the internet) and then to learn how to use all the 'mark-up' help such as HTML and continue to post her arguments and her beliefs in such a strong overwhellming way.... This shows me to people who are more than very dedicated to this. Jo is trying to prove that it is Duane or at least get closure that it is not and you are trying to prove who it is, however i think you are so exausted by the Duane part of the case that in your head part of you is trying to prove it is NOT duane more than trying to prove who it is. I understand that as well because i imagine that you know solid in your head that it is not. Maybe you are wrong though and need to step back and relook into what Jo is telling you.


I know nothing on this case apart from these threads but my simple conclusion is that Jo sure knows alot about this and is dedicated to this. Are the other suspects wifes as dedicated to this case as she is? Does that not put it out there that maybe keeping it simple that Duane needs to be looked at again?



Anyway, what i am trying to say is, step back, work more with Jo, it seems you two working together could go alot further with this than not working together.


Good luck, I hope you make your legacy in your department and are remembered for it. I also would like to see this case solved for all of us who are interested in it.

Reading this thread is not a quick thing to do


dumstuntzz

Jan 1, 2008, 11:10 PM
Post #821 of 1694 (3210 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

so why did the FBI NOT release the serial numbers to the rigging public? seems to me that it would have been a good idea to have riggers looking for the gear that cooper took out of the plane with him.


happythoughts  (D License)

Jan 1, 2008, 11:16 PM
Post #822 of 1694 (3208 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [Ckret] 2003 post [In reply to]  

I see two areas of the discussion.

1. Was he an experienced skydiver ?

2. Was the jump survivable ?

Training -

My dad was in the Air Force in North Africa during WWII. He told me that there were so many injuries in parachute training that they quit doing it for the air crews.

His entire crew was forced to jump at night over rocky terrain in North Africa. They were so close that the co-pilot got line stretch, swung once, and hit - breaking his leg. The rest of the crew was ok.

So, a person with minor training could accomplish the same. A person with a few military jumps might think it is a good idea.

The experience question is based on the gear check.
Some jumpers aren't that sharp on gear questions.
(Some of the ex-airborne guys that post here can answer as to the level of gear knowledge that they are given.)


Surviving?

I have done a few jumps (like many here) out of a 727 at the convention before. 155 mph. The prop blast is kind of tough. 200 is survivable.

The factors that would concern me are the weather and the trees.

In Burma, the Brits found that getting stuck in tall trees could be fatal. Survive the jump, but be 60ft up a tree and can't get down.

The Pacific Northwest can be painfully cold when rainy.
The weather was bad. There was no way to spot or plan a pickup point. I wouldn't want to spend a few of days finding my way out of it.


The following story is only slightly related, and the person was mentally ill, but it does illustrate that good judgment isn't necessary :
clicky
Philippine Airlines Flight 812

Quote:
The hijacker demanded the passengers to place their valuables in a bag before he commanded the pilot to descend and depressurize the aircraft so that he could escape by a homemade parachute made of nylon with a curtain sash for a ripcord. Before he was about to jump, he panicked and clung to the rear door, and a male flight attendant pushed him out of the plane.

The hijacker was wearing a ski mask and swimming goggles when he jumped out of the plane...

He died though.


bigway

Jan 1, 2008, 11:30 PM
Post #823 of 1694 (3204 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [happythoughts] 2003 post [In reply to]  

Jumping the jet at 155mph... to be honest, it was nothing like as bad as i imagined it would be, you slow down very fast after exit.
Going on my jet jumps alone, I believe i could handle a 200mph exit, to be honest, call me stupid but i would exit at 200mph without thinking too much about it over 155mph.

However saying that, I have no idea jumping a roundie or landing in trees/forest but i wonder if i was a skydiver back in those days maybe landing in a tree every now and then with a roundie is a given and would it bother me? I dont know.

Survivable, fuckn oath it is survivable, Some of the things we here have seen people survive, this jump does not even compare.


happythoughts  (D License)

Jan 1, 2008, 11:58 PM
Post #824 of 1694 (3200 views)
Shortcut
     Re: [bigway] 2003 post [In reply to]  

At Quincy, I did the 10-way speed competition out of the jet. It does disorient you for a moment, but our best time was 21 seconds.

They also had a high-speed pass at 175 that was more of a dare than anything. It tossed you around a little more.

That is some very rugged terrain. Trees and rocks.
A tough landing.

I think the difficulty would be hanging onto your loafers at 200mph. Walking around in 30 degree weather and rain, soaking wet without shoes, in the dark.

Going 200mph, at night with no way to spot, you couldn't get more accurate than 60 miles. I'll bet it would take 2 days minimum to get out.

So, you get out... do you walk up to a road looking like you spent 2 days in the wilderness while the FBI is plastering your pic all over the new?

You can't land next to your car and then drive away.
No cell phone or GPS.

All that said, it was 1971. Lots of VN vets with those job skills and not much else.




First page Previous page 1 ... 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 ... 68 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Skydiving : Skydiving History & Trivia

 


Search for (options)