Forums: Skydiving: Safety and Training:
Small Canopies

 

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Marisan  (E 123)

Dec 27, 2007, 12:00 PM
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Small Canopies Can't Post

Hi Everyone first post.
I've been out of the sport for a long time (18+ years) but jumped for 15 years and did roughly 2,500 jumps.
I started in the old B4/C9 days, progressed through a Thunderbolt, Rope and Rings Stratostar (3rd in my club) to a 220 sq ft Pegasus when I finally hung up my rig.
I was reasonable at RW, CRW and Accuracy.

I've been looking through the Incidents thread and it appears that a large number of Fatalities/Injuries are caused through the small canopies that are jumped today.

Now for the controversial bit (Head down preparing for flaming) Why would anyone jump a canopy that having line twists on opening result in a high speed spinning mal. Where hard toggle inputs can result in the same. Where a low turn results in Injury/Death.

While the Freefall part of the jump seem to have got safer (Mandatory Reserve Automatic Openers and Reserve Static Lines) the Canopy Ride (Where I used to relax and enjoy) appears to have gotten more dangerous.

Just some musing from an boring old fart who has never forgotten the sport


linestretch  (D 21060)

Dec 27, 2007, 12:06 PM
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

you know, maybe it's just something you have to experience to understand. Like trying to explain why skydiving is soo much fun w/ all the added risks.

Driving a station wagon may seem fun until you've driven say a ferrari.


Reginald  (D 28162)

Dec 27, 2007, 12:51 PM
Post #3 of 41 (3533 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Note that not everyone jumps a tiny canopy. There are plenty of people jumping relativly large canopies still.


DrewEckhardt  (D 28461)

Dec 27, 2007, 1:13 PM
Post #4 of 41 (3511 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Now for the controversial bit (Head down preparing for flaming) Why would anyone jump a canopy that having line twists on opening result in a high speed spinning mal. Where hard toggle inputs can result in the same. Where a low turn results in Injury/Death.

Because it makes landing at least as much fun as the freefall portion of the jump.


(This post was edited by DrewEckhardt on Dec 27, 2007, 1:13 PM)


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 27, 2007, 1:55 PM
Post #5 of 41 (3480 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why would anyone jump a canopy that having line twists on opening result in a high speed spinning mal. Where hard toggle inputs can result in the same. Where a low turn results in Injury/Death.

Small canopies work fine, provided you operate them properly.

Quote:
I started in the old B4/C9 days, progressed through a Thunderbolt, Rope and Rings Stratostar (3rd in my club) to a 220 sq ft Pegasus

Why did you switch from a round to a square? A round would be more reliable. Why did you drop the Thuderbolt? What made you switch to a canopy with a slider?

It's the same reason people jump high performance canopies. They work better. Yes, they are more complex, and take training and experience to operate, but if used correctly, they work better.

They are also worlds more fun than big canopies. Ripping a nice 450 and laying down a long swoop is a reason to skydive in itself.


in2jumping  (C License)

Dec 27, 2007, 2:49 PM
Post #6 of 41 (3439 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:

Why did you switch from a round to a square? A round would be more reliable. Why did you drop the Thuderbolt? What made you switch to a canopy with a slider?

That is an awful analogy! Changes made above made the sport safer.

In reply to:
Quote:
It's the same reason people jump high performance canopies. They work better. Yes, they are more complex, and take training and experience to operate, but if used correctly, they work better.

How does a Velocity loaded to 2.0 work any better than a Spectre loaded to 1.2?

In reply to:
Quote:
They are also worlds more fun than big canopies. Ripping a nice 450 and laying down a long swoop is a reason to skydive in itself.

That is pretty much the only reason I see to jump a small HP canopy, they are fun and exhilarating to fly and land. But come at a high risk and have become one of the most dangerous aspects of the sport today.


Premier billvon  (D 16479)
Moderator
Dec 27, 2007, 3:15 PM
Post #7 of 41 (3414 views)
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Re: [davelepka] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

> Small canopies work fine, provided you operate them properly.

Yes. But given people of equal skill, larger canopies are still safer than smaller canopies 90% of the time.

> Why did you switch from a round to a square?

I've jumped both, and squares are just plain safer. They land you far more softly and are more likely to land you in a safe area. Heck, even under a perfectly fine round, you have a not-insignificant chance of injury.

>It's the same reason people jump high performance canopies. They work
> better.

A Sabre2 "works better" than a Unit. But a Sabre2 190 will land you safely more often than a Sabre2 99 will.

That is not to say that you should jump a 190 instead of a 99. But the argument that "it's safer" doesn't fly. They are more dangerous, and more minor problems (like a premature brake release) can result in reserve rides (or more serious problems.) As long as you are OK with that - then no problem.


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 27, 2007, 3:35 PM
Post #8 of 41 (3397 views)
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Re: [in2jumping] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why did you switch from a round to a square? A round would be more reliable. Why did you drop the Thuderbolt? What made you switch to a canopy with a slider?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That is an awful analogy! Changes made above made the sport safer.

Eventually. When they first came out squares, and other 'wings' were cutting edge, borderline experimental, and far off the standard of the day (military surplus rounds).





Quote:
They work better. Yes, they are more complex, and take training and experience to operate, but if used correctly, they work better.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


How does a Velocity loaded to 2.0 work any better than a Spectre loaded to 1.2?

For one thing, the Velo has a greater range of speed. I can almost as slow as larger canopies, but also have the ability to let it fly, and quickly position myself in the sky. For my purposes, this a big advantage.

Additionally, the Velo performs better when the winds pick up.

Finally, I can get a Velo to do 70 MPH, and swoop for 300 feet.

When I make a skydive, I value the superior manuverability, forward drive into the wind, and speed/swoop capability. A Spectre at 1.2 cannot meet my needs in these areas.

Your requirements for a canopy may be different than mine.







Quote:
they are fun and exhilarating to fly and land. But come at a high risk and have become one of the most dangerous aspects of the sport today.

I have probably written more posts to that effect than any other subject. These canopies are not for everyone. If you take the time to follow a slow and methodical course of training and downsizing over 1000+ jumps, you will reduce your risk in spending time under a small Hp wing.

This thread was about the reasons TO jump a small canopy. If you want to discuss the reasons NOT to jump a small canopy, start up a new thread, and we'll talk about it over there.


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 27, 2007, 3:36 PM)


Meux  (D 29365)

Dec 27, 2007, 3:52 PM
Post #9 of 41 (3361 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Hey,

Welcome back, looking forward to jumping with you somewhere.

MH


davelepka  (D 21448)

Dec 27, 2007, 3:53 PM
Post #10 of 41 (3360 views)
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Re: [billvon] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
But the argument that "it's safer" doesn't fly

I never said it was safer. I said it was better, and for me, it is. The reason being that I want to swoop, and the Velo swoops better than other canopies.

My point about switching from a round to a square was that at the time squares came out, their usefulness had not been proven, but the prospect of steering and flaring appealed to jumpers, so they tried the 'new' technology.

Going fast and swooping appeals to me, so I jump the new technology of a Velo. Maybe the OP will see the correlation, and then be more able to understand why people jump small canopies (which was his question in the first place).


(This post was edited by davelepka on Dec 27, 2007, 3:55 PM)


fcajump  (D 15598)

Dec 28, 2007, 8:22 AM
Post #11 of 41 (3192 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome back "old skydiver"...Smile

Because we now have many "bold skydivers"...Wink

Unfortunately there is also a recent trend to hold the large/slow/conservative/student canopy flier as equals in the responsibility when a fast canopy collides with a slow canopy on a straight in final after standard pattern.

ShockedAsbestos jumpsuit ON, welder's helmet down and lockedShocked

JW
"Older skydiver"
Spectre 230 loaded ~1.2:1


gearless_chris  (D 29012)

Dec 28, 2007, 9:00 AM
Post #12 of 41 (3174 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm getting the flamethrower out for ya Smile.
I hope people actually know the fast canopies have to watch out for the slow ones and are just posting otherwise to keep arguments going.
For the original poster I skydive for the exits from the plane and the canopy flight. I could care less for the freefall as far as turning points go. I do video so I can pull higher to get more canopy time.


TheCaptain  (D License)

Dec 28, 2007, 10:08 AM
Post #13 of 41 (3147 views)
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Re: [gearless_chris] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I'm getting the flamethrower out for ya Smile.
I hope people actually know the fast canopies have to watch out for the slow ones and are just posting otherwise to keep arguments going.
Off subject
Yes, low and slow have the right of way; however it is everyones job to fly a predictable pattern and keep their head on a swival while in the air and until they are off the landing area. Many times I have seen large canopies fly their pattern right over the top of the landing area and doing "s" turns on final.
Kirk


(This post was edited by TheCaptain on Dec 28, 2007, 10:11 AM)


diablopilot  (D License)

Dec 28, 2007, 2:33 PM
Post #14 of 41 (3087 views)
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Re: [fcajump] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Welcome back "old skydiver"...Smile

Because we now have many "bold skydivers"...Wink

Unfortunately there is also a recent trend to hold the large/slow/conservative/student canopy flier as equals in the responsibility when a fast canopy collides with a slow canopy on a straight in final after standard pattern.

ShockedAsbestos jumpsuit ON, welder's helmet down and lockedShocked

JW
"Older skydiver"
Spectre 230 loaded ~1.2:1


Anytime you leap out of an airplane and intend to land with any type of parachute it is your responsibility to do it safely. No matter WHAT parachute you're jumping.


Lastchance  (B 28828)

Jan 2, 2008, 12:25 PM
Post #15 of 41 (2916 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of us still do enjoy that canopy ride and some of us still do not feel the need to fly a canopy the size of posage stamp. Fast and zippy is good for some but not for all. I will stay with my current 1:1 wing loading for the duration of my skydiving career I'm guessing.Smile


dharma1976  (D 28634)

Jan 2, 2008, 3:59 PM
Post #16 of 41 (2881 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Anytime you leap out of an airplane and intend to land with any type of parachute it is your responsibility to do it safely. No matter WHAT parachute you're jumping.

I just feel that what JP said needs to be repeated...

insert repetition of what JP said..

Dave


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 30, 2011, 4:57 PM
Post #17 of 41 (2101 views)
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Re: [diablopilot] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Anytime you leap out of an airplane and intend to land with any type of parachute it is your responsibility to do it safely. No matter WHAT parachute you're jumping.

+1

... bump!

Four years and the OP has still not been able to ban those 'dangerous' canopies he doesn't like.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 30, 2011, 5:36 PM
Post #18 of 41 (2074 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
Anytime you leap out of an airplane and intend to land with any type of parachute it is your responsibility to do it safely. No matter WHAT parachute you're jumping.

+1

... bump!

Four years and the OP has still not been able to ban those 'dangerous' canopies he doesn't like.

Hey craigbey, And how many people have died under these small canopies in that 4 years eh?


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 30, 2011, 5:56 PM
Post #19 of 41 (2060 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Well then ... maybe you should work harder to try to get them banned. Better hurry.

Or, you can work with others to provide better CC training. According to your story, you used to do it. And in 2 other threads, you have now agreed that "it's the pilot, not the canopy".

So, what have you done in those 4 years to help with CC training? Have you taken a CC class yourself in that time? With all your experience, perhaps you could help teach one?


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 30, 2011, 6:03 PM
Post #20 of 41 (2048 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Well then ... maybe you should work harder to try to get them banned. Better hurry.

Or, you can work with others to provide better CC training. According to your story, you used to do it. And in 2 other threads, you have now agreed that "it's the pilot, not the canopy".

So, what have you done in those 4 years to help with CC training? Have you taken a CC class yourself in that time? With all your experience, perhaps you could help teach one?

If you'd read the first post on this thread you would see that I haven't jumped for a long time.

So why don't YOU start to help with CC Training.

Re getting them banned, I wouldn't worry about me. I'd worry about the FAA.

What, exactly, is your problem with someone pointing out the carnage?

Do you have too much of your ego or money invested in HP Canopies?


craigbey  (C 31991)

Nov 30, 2011, 6:31 PM
Post #21 of 41 (2045 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you'd read the first post on this thread you would see that I haven't jumped for a long time.

So why don't YOU start to help with CC Training.

Re getting them banned, I wouldn't worry about me. I'd worry about the FAA.

What, exactly, is your problem with someone pointing out the carnage?

Do you have too much of your ego or money invested in HP Canopies?

Many of us are participating in CC training ... even if it is only as students. I am a student of advanced canopy flight, therefore I seek out additional instruction from more experienced canopy pilots. How's that for ego?

And guess what, when I looked, the training was available. That's why I'm not concerned about your empty FAA threat.

Yes, more needs to be done to ensure that everyone gets the proper training at the appropriate time. And some of the training itself needs to be updated and mandated.

I specifically challenged you to do more because I did read your first post. Perhaps you need get more involved with the sport besides trolling.


Marisan  (E 123)

Nov 30, 2011, 6:58 PM
Post #22 of 41 (2028 views)
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Re: [craigbey] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
If you'd read the first post on this thread you would see that I haven't jumped for a long time.

So why don't YOU start to help with CC Training.

Re getting them banned, I wouldn't worry about me. I'd worry about the FAA.

What, exactly, is your problem with someone pointing out the carnage?

Do you have too much of your ego or money invested in HP Canopies?

Many of us are participating in CC training ... even if it is only as students. I am a student of advanced canopy flight, therefore I seek out additional instruction from more experienced canopy pilots. How's that for ego?

And guess what, when I looked, the training was available. That's why I'm not concerned about your empty FAA threat.

Yes, more needs to be done to ensure that everyone gets the proper training at the appropriate time. And some of the training itself needs to be updated and mandated.

I specifically challenged you to do more because I did read your first post. Perhaps you need get more involved with the sport besides trolling.

Re my empty FAA Threat:

Older and wiser heads than yours are worried about my empty FAA Threat.

I suggest you read the below, especially Airtwardo's translation about 3/4's of the way down the first page.

(Sorry, can't do clickies)

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4110809;search_string=FAA%20Letter;#4110809


airtwardo  (D License)

Nov 30, 2011, 9:57 PM
Post #23 of 41 (2012 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Quote:
If you'd read the first post on this thread you would see that I haven't jumped for a long time.

So why don't YOU start to help with CC Training.

Re getting them banned, I wouldn't worry about me. I'd worry about the FAA.

What, exactly, is your problem with someone pointing out the carnage?

Do you have too much of your ego or money invested in HP Canopies?

Many of us are participating in CC training ... even if it is only as students. I am a student of advanced canopy flight, therefore I seek out additional instruction from more experienced canopy pilots. How's that for ego?

And guess what, when I looked, the training was available. That's why I'm not concerned about your empty FAA threat.

Yes, more needs to be done to ensure that everyone gets the proper training at the appropriate time. And some of the training itself needs to be updated and mandated.

I specifically challenged you to do more because I did read your first post. Perhaps you need get more involved with the sport besides trolling.

Re my empty FAA Threat:

Older and wiser heads than yours are worried about my empty FAA Threat.

I suggest you read the below, especially Airtwardo's translation about 3/4's of the way down the first page.

(Sorry, can't do clickies)

http://www.dropzone.com/...AA%20Letter;#4110809


Wink


Ron

Dec 1, 2011, 7:39 AM
Post #24 of 41 (1896 views)
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Re: [Marisan] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why would anyone jump a canopy that having line twists on opening result in a high speed spinning mal. Where hard toggle inputs can result in the same. Where a low turn results in Injury/Death.

Why would someone step out of a perfectly good airplane and risk high speed death if their parachute fails to open?

Why would someone risk death getting onto an airplane? It is much safer to stay on the ground.

Same reasons.


Sangi

Dec 1, 2011, 11:28 AM
Post #25 of 41 (1842 views)
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Re: [Ron] Small Canopies [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok I'll chime in (nooo)..

Any canopy can hurt you or kill you. I screwed myself with a "safe" intermediate canopy on a relatively low wingloading..

Just like in the other thread in the swooping subforum, it's not the canopies, but the pilot that is the issue..

Martisan, please do not be ignorant and full of unreasonable hate and fear, just because you lack the knowledge.. The skydiving world has changed a lot since you stopped, so now you just have to accept the way it is or go away from it.. It wont change according to your mindset and wishes..

Please listen to some reasonable people with up to date knowledge and good reason and don't dwell on the past nor live on it..

If you have the question "why would or why do we do what we do, which increases danger" then you don't seem too different from an ignorant wuffo, simply cause he lacks the knowledge and understanding..

Not trying to bash, I'm trying to say, learn and try to understand Smile


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