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conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off

 

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pete2005

Nov 29, 2007, 12:53 PM
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conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off Can't Post

ok there we go ....should pasangers harnes should be conected to TM during take off(up tp 1000ft)?.I already heard many different opinions from diferent TM.Personally i dont conect it up to 1000 ft in cease of plane crash during take off.....What is Your personall opinion and experience..........regards


AggieDave  (D License)

Nov 29, 2007, 12:57 PM
Post #2 of 64 (3345 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Passenger in a seatbelt. If you're connected and you're knocked out during an emergency landing how is the student supposed to get out? Surely someone in the plane with you should take care of that, but as we all know not everyone responds correctly and appropriately in emergencies.

Sure its unlikely, but a lot of what we prepare for are the unlikely scenarios.


pete2005

Nov 29, 2007, 1:05 PM
Post #3 of 64 (3339 views)
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Re: [AggieDave] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Seatbels ofcourse......if they are in the planeCrazyas we know not all of skydiving planes have it(specialy small ones like pilatus or caravan)I heard (i dont know is it true or not)that in UK is mandatory conect it even during take off.........


Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Nov 29, 2007, 1:13 PM
Post #4 of 64 (3326 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Does the airplane have a door that closes?

Are you sitting in seats/benches or sitting on the floor?

Where in the aircraft do you sit with tandems - in the rear (tandems exit first) or in the front (tandems exit last)?


divnswoop  (D 18276)

Nov 29, 2007, 1:29 PM
Post #5 of 64 (3317 views)
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Re: conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

If I am in the back of the plane they get a seatbelt. There have been a couple tandems where we were hooked up all the way up but that was because of an open door/tailgate on the chopper. I do hook up when the "swoopers" leave at 4500. Then normally have to bitch time and time again for them to open the door ALL THE WAY. Just what you need is a swooper leaving at 4500', with no cut, in a climb, and his lazy ass rubs the reserve pin on the half open door as he leaves.


pete2005

Nov 29, 2007, 2:03 PM
Post #6 of 64 (3302 views)
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Re: [slotperfect] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Does the airplane have a door that closes?

Are you sitting in seats/benches or sitting on the floor?

Where in the aircraft do you sit with tandems - in the rear (tandems exit first) or in the front (tandems exit last)?
At the moment i jumping from cesna caravan and from pilatus both without seatbelts
1-the doors close completly
2-caravan on the floor , pilatus on the bench
3-tandems jump last so in cease of caravan we sit in the front of the plane


JoosVos  (D License)

Nov 29, 2007, 5:21 PM
Post #7 of 64 (3246 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

My drill;

Seatbelt until 1500ft
Hook up lowers at 1500ft and take seatbelt(s) off
(this way the student can't 'fall' out)
Hook up uppers aprox 2000ft below exit alt.

In case of emergency exit - quick hook up one/both upper(s). (Comfort is a factor...Smile)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Nov 29, 2007, 10:36 PM
Post #8 of 64 (3186 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
(specialy small ones like pilatus or caravan).
LaughLaughLaughLaugh


livendive  (D 21415)

Nov 30, 2007, 9:59 AM
Post #9 of 64 (3104 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

It depends on the plane. If they're sitting in front of me (e.g. 206, straddle benches, etc), they've got at least two clips hooked up before we even start to taxi. In a 182, they're just seat-belted till time for full hook-up.

Blues,
Dave


Schoenauer  (D License)

Nov 30, 2007, 11:23 AM
Post #10 of 64 (3084 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

My SOP, at 2K seat belts off hook up the bottom student attachment points, adjusted ready to skydive. My thinking is below 2K we are landing with the airplane. At 2K I know I can get out with a student regardless of aircraft type and deploy the reserve. If wing is gone or airplane is on fire below 2K I will do everything possible to get out with or without the student.

Student sitting next to the door, Caravan/Otter, the bottom attachment is hooked up for take off, but adjusted ready to skydive at 2K when seat belts come off. If the door is going to be opened at 1K, during the summer heat, I want two bodies between the student and the door. If not the student is hooked up at the bottom attachment before the door is opened. I have never had a student make a suicide move towards the door but I am not going to leave that window of opportunity open.


bclark  (D 22626)

Nov 30, 2007, 5:33 PM
Post #11 of 64 (3040 views)
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Re: [Schoenauer] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Why hook up the lowers below an altitude at which you are willing to attempt an emergency exit?


Schoenauer  (D License)

Dec 1, 2007, 1:31 PM
Post #12 of 64 (2953 views)
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Re: [bclark] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
Why hook up the lowers below an altitude at which you are willing to attempt an emergency exit?

I would guess your referring to the student sitting next to the door where I have the lowers hook up at at take off. That is DZ SOP, which has some logic to it, it guard the student from doing something stupid.

If this doesnt answer your questing then I don't quite fallow what your after could you be more specific?


(This post was edited by Schoenauer on Dec 1, 2007, 1:41 PM)


bclark  (D 22626)

Dec 1, 2007, 3:22 PM
Post #13 of 64 (2932 views)
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Re: [Schoenauer] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

No, that is not what I was referring to.

But, you gave me ONE example of a logical reason for it. (Which IS what I was after.)

What other reasons (other than a student sitting next to an open door) can you think of for hooking up the lowers below an altitude at which you would attempt an emergency exit?

I ask because I was taught that having the lowers hooked up in the event of a crash on takeoff could impede evacuation of the aircraft. Particularly if you are incapacitated or unconscious. I can only imagine my student trying to drag my corpse out of a burning aircraft.


(This post was edited by bclark on Dec 1, 2007, 3:29 PM)


Andrewwhyte  (C 1988)

Dec 1, 2007, 4:15 PM
Post #14 of 64 (2921 views)
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Re: [bclark] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

I get a lot of students asking me if we are hooked up yet. I say "yes, just loosely for now," and give the lowers a tug. It serves no operational purpose in a 206, but makes the students feel better. In a narrow 182 if I am by the door I do the lowers up tight before the door closes because I cannot properly adjust them with the door closed.


Schoenauer  (D License)

Dec 2, 2007, 9:36 AM
Post #15 of 64 (2856 views)
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Re: [bclark] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
What other reasons (other than a student sitting next to an open door) can you think of for hooking up the lowers below an altitude at which you would attempt an emergency exit?

Narrow 182 and I use to sit in the student slot next to the pilot my back to the fire wall and I also would hook up the lowers while taxing with the door open, but I have changed my seating arrangement in the 182. This would have been the only other time.

Quote:
...lowers hooked up in the event of a crash on takeoff could impede evacuation of the aircraft

I was taught the same thing and when I hook up early that always passes thought my mind.


efs4ever  (D 7014)

Dec 2, 2007, 2:19 PM
Post #16 of 64 (2825 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
ok there we go ....should pasangers harnes should be conected to TM during take off(up tp 1000ft)?.I already heard many different opinions from diferent TM.Personally i dont conect it up to 1000 ft in cease of plane crash during take off.....What is Your personall opinion and experience..........regards

If I'm on a straddle bench I at least hook up the lowers.


bclark  (D 22626)

Dec 2, 2007, 6:15 PM
Post #17 of 64 (2795 views)
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Re: [efs4ever] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't think of a single advantage or reason to do this when you are going to land in the aircraft in the event of an emergency below 1000' / 1500'.

I can understand the student next to the door scenario.

I suppose that there may be some people who may not be able to attach or tighten the lowers next to the door of a 182. Unsure

But except for those reasons WHY?


(This post was edited by bclark on Dec 2, 2007, 6:21 PM)


livendive  (D 21415)

Dec 3, 2007, 3:14 PM
Post #18 of 64 (2741 views)
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Re: [bclark] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
I ask because I was taught that having the lowers hooked up in the event of a crash on takeoff could impede evacuation of the aircraft. Particularly if you are incapacitated or unconscious. I can only imagine my student trying to drag my corpse out of a burning aircraft.

If you don't hook the lowers up, I'm assuming you do put a seatbeat on them? I've seen plenty of tandems where the student was hooked up to the TI and did not have their own seatbelt. I've seen plenty others where the student was seatbelted and not hooked up to the TI. I don't think I've ever seen a student have neither (or both).

Blues,
Dave


bclark  (D 22626)

Dec 3, 2007, 5:55 PM
Post #19 of 64 (2726 views)
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Re: [livendive] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

FAR 91.107 requires that EACH PERSON on board a U.S. registered civil aircraft must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during ovement on the surface, takeoff and landing. (the "approved seat" is exempted for skydivers, allowing them to sit on the floor).

Side connectors are not seatbelts.


Schoenauer  (D License)

Dec 3, 2007, 6:10 PM
Post #20 of 64 (2723 views)
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Re: [bclark] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

You forgot that aircraft seat belts are TSOd and two people sharing a belt exceeds the belts designed limits.


bclark  (D 22626)

Dec 3, 2007, 7:11 PM
Post #21 of 64 (2712 views)
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Re: [Schoenauer] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

What is the TSO'd limit of the seatbelt? ( I don't know ). I was wondering about that. The reg states that each person must be wearing a seatbelt, but I can't see where it specifies that each person must have their OWN seatbelt.

Seatbelts are certified under TSO C-22. Everything I found online states a 1500 pound limit, that when tested should fail at no less than 2250 lbs. It is hard to find the specifics, they apparently are contained in SAE AS 8043, seems is not available without BUYING it. Unsure


(This post was edited by bclark on Dec 3, 2007, 7:58 PM)


camamel  (D 333)

Dec 4, 2007, 3:40 PM
Post #22 of 64 (2602 views)
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Re: [pete2005] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

On take off each tandem pass have their own seat belt. TI do it for them and show them where and how to undo it in case of an emergency. No up and pop or any exit below 5000. When those happen passenger are fully attach with the lower loose. After the door is closed we release the uppers until prexit briefing at 10000. We have a Gran Caravan.

Richard


NickDG  (D 8904)

Dec 4, 2007, 4:44 PM
Post #23 of 64 (2594 views)
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Re: [camamel] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

Like "some" things maybe the best way was the old way . . .

In the ealry 80s when tandem first came out and we grabbled with this same problem, we hung a chest mounted reserve on the wall of the airplane. Then if there was a fire or something really funky below hook up altitude the kid had the same chance the rest of us had.

I'd much rather, as a tandem master, shove an innocent student out the door going through a grand with a hope rather than what someone upboard said about with or without them.

If you aren't willing to give your life for a student then don't take the twenty bucks . . .

And don't go around calling yourself an Instructor . . .

NickD Smile


camamel  (D 333)

Dec 5, 2007, 4:28 PM
Post #24 of 64 (2521 views)
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Re: [NickDG] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

English is not my first language, I am not sure I understand your answer.
First: the only reason my passenger is not hook to me on take off is if the plane crash on take off and I am dead or pass out. Then my passenger will know how to undo his seat belt and run from the wreckage.Lot better than having to drag me out if we are hook together plus my seat belt!
After 1000 feet he is hook to me and if I go out the door he will go with me for sure that's 100% clear in my head.
To make sure I understand your point do you agree with that or not.

Richard


bclark  (D 22626)

Dec 5, 2007, 4:44 PM
Post #25 of 64 (2515 views)
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Re: [camamel] conect or not...pasangers harnes during take off [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree with you camamel.

Interestingly I was reading the new issue of Skydiving today. There was an article about a U206 that crashed and sunk in a pond in Australia. 3 tandem pairs on board. One pair got out alive. Article said that one of the pairs still in the airplane was hooked up at the lowers...


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