Forums: Skydiving Disciplines: Canopy Relative Work:
Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What?

 

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skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 23, 2007, 3:46 PM
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Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? Can't Post

   Skydivers at Balwin, WI completed a 7 Stack earlier this fall. This isn't anything to brag about, but, CReW has been gone from this DZ for many years. The reappearance of canopy formation flying started when a couple of the local skydivers asked the questionů why doesn't anyone around here do CReW anymore?
We explained that as canopies got smaller/faster, they became inappropriate for CRW. As people upgraded to these new technologies, CRW slowly disappeared.
So at Baldwin, a couple of old jumpers (sorry Brian, but the truth hurts) dug out some old gear and started collecting retired Furrys and the like. They began recruiting some of us old (in my case, really old) as well as some newbys to CRW. After jumping a couple of canopies that shouldĺve stayed retired, I found an old Furry that flew well enough to put my tired old butt on the ground softly. And, as a result, I participated in several CRW formations this year. I do so enjoy CReW!
Although it's good news to see CRW return to Baldwin, my question to the readers of this forum is... How do we take the next step to develop a CRW program that promotes safe technique and upgrades our old technology. Or, simply put, where do we go from here?

Thanks for your responses...
The Skydive Twin Cities CReW Pups.
Tee Shirts being printed(see attachment)!
Attachments: Pup.JPG (8.06 KB)


PROGRESSIVE  (D 8150)

Nov 23, 2007, 4:19 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Congratulations! I remember you and Tom M were doing crew for the Freedom Flyers Parachute Team, back in the early 80's. I got into crew at Staton, but would participate in it with JQ, Gary Hoffman, Quasy, etc at the Boogies.

Mike, I too broke my pelvis this past summer...That hurts! I'm paralyzed below my knees, which maybe temporary all due to hanggliding.

Glad your alive and jumping!

Pete Anderson


VincentVL.  (Student)

Nov 24, 2007, 8:12 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
why doesn't anyone around here do CReW anymore?

Perhaps because it is not as exciting as swooping or FF? And when it get's really exciting, you're also fighting for your life...


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 24, 2007, 9:32 AM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

My question to the forum is not which disipline is more thrilling. Everyone can make up their own mind on that one. My question is, how to best develope a CRW program at a smaller dropzone that promotes safety and training without pricing CRW back out of existance. We have several experienced CReW Pilots, we have interest from some younger less experience jumpers, we even have a stock pile of older CRW friendly canopies. My question to the forum is, where do we go from here?


VincentVL.  (Student)

Nov 24, 2007, 9:46 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Start by organising an introductory course for the noobs and then plan a weekly or biweekly training session finished off with a jump or two?


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 24, 2007, 3:23 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
My question to the forum is not which disipline is more thrilling. Everyone can make up their own mind on that one. My question is, how to best develope a CRW program at a smaller dropzone that promotes safety and training without pricing CRW back out of existance. We have several experienced CReW Pilots, we have interest from some younger less experience jumpers, we even have a stock pile of older CRW friendly canopies. My question to the forum is, where do we go from here?

Best way to proceed would be to attend the next available CRW camp. I expect that will be the "Freeze Your Buns Off" boogie in Z-hills, usually held in mid January if I remember right.

There will soon be notices about upcoming CRW camps in the CRW mailing list. You should join that list so you can be involved: Just send an e-mail to crwdogs @ boxofclue.com requesting that your e-mail address is added to the list.

In the mean time, before one of these camps, you could try some PD Lightnings loaded somewhere between 1.3 - 1.375. Now that the 100-way CRW formation is completed, PD should have some Lightning loaners available. You could purchase Lightnings new or used (now that the 100-way is complete there will likely be some used Lightnings available to purchase in the classifieds soon).

The benefit of upgrading to Lightnings will be compatibility with a majority of other CRW dogs in the world... so that you can dock on 9-ways, 16-ways, etc.


Chris


parachutist  (D 25468)

Nov 24, 2007, 3:33 PM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Perhaps because it is not as exciting as swooping or FF?
You can swoop at end of a CRW jump, So that argument doesn't make any sense. Bill Mershon has done a Dead Man approach while rear risering under his Lightning a few times.

In reply to:
And when it get's really exciting, you're also fighting for your life...
hmmm... that sounds just like swooping. Or have you missed the Incidents section here on Dropzone.com?


VincentVL.  (Student)

Nov 25, 2007, 3:04 AM
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Re: [parachutist] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
Perhaps because it is not as exciting as swooping or FF?
You can swoop at end of a CRW jump, So that argument doesn't make any sense. Bill Mershon has done a Dead Man approach while rear risering under his Lightning a few times.

In reply to:
And when it get's really exciting, you're also fighting for your life...
hmmm... that sounds just like swooping. Or have you missed the Incidents section here on Dropzone.com?

Well I decided to let other people state the obvious. It's all about perspective though. CreW is playing Tetris in the sky with slow ass canopies.

FF and swooping are like the formula one of freefall and canopy piloting respectively. From the perspective of most student jumpers that is

Anyway...back on topic.


(This post was edited by VincentVL. on Nov 25, 2007, 3:05 AM)


dqpacker  (D 32043)

Nov 25, 2007, 7:19 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Here's some pics from this summer Mike. Not the 7 stack but some good stuff.
This was at SkydiveTwinCities.
Attachments: 07 032.JPG (59.6 KB)
  07 037.JPG (55.4 KB)
  07 039.JPG (48.7 KB)
  07 040.JPG (49.3 KB)


gotwins  (D 26854)

Nov 25, 2007, 9:51 AM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Mike, I sent a message to your dz.com e-mail

Mark


kkeenan  (D 22164)

Nov 26, 2007, 7:48 AM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
Perhaps because it is not as exciting as swooping or FF?
In reply to:
And when it get's really exciting, you're also fighting for your life...

CreW is playing Tetris in the sky with slow ass canopies.

FF and swooping are like the formula one of freefall and canopy piloting respectively. From the perspective of most student jumpers that is

If you're not interested in CRW, there are a lot of other forums here to spend your time on. Just because you don't have the talent or the nuts to do CRW, what make you think anyone here even cares about your opinion.

Kevin K.


beowulf  (C License)

Nov 26, 2007, 8:03 AM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Quote:
why doesn't anyone around here do CReW anymore?

Perhaps because it is not as exciting as swooping or FF? And when it get's really exciting, you're also fighting for your life...


Bullshit. Don't knock something till you have tried it. CRW is exciting and very diffucult. The reason most people don't do it is because they are afraid to.


skyjumpenfool  (Student)

Nov 26, 2007, 9:19 AM
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Re: [kkeenan] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Alright folks, let's keep our eye on the ball. The question here is...

Who (from the large pool of experienced CRW Dawgs out there) can give us positive input on how we can improve and expand on our efforts to bring CRW back to our DZ.

The reason CReW disappeared here is that as canopies became more specialized (faster, ZP, etc), we didn't keep up by purchasing CRW canopies when we upgraded to ZP canopies. All the other disiplines are well represented here at Baldwin, including swooping and RW.

Please leave the "which disipline rules" arguments to another forum. We're trying to promote CRW to a great DZ in the heart of the Midwest and we're looking for your input on that topic.

Is there a Dawg out there that could run a seminar here?
Do we need to scrap the old F-111's in place of newer Lightnings? Or, should we keep plugging away with these old Furrys and Mavricks in an effort to generate interest and develop skills?
Should a group from here go somewhere to get training?
Any ideas you have to help us will help strengthen the pool of jumpers willing and able to do larger formations with you someday.

I can tell you that I've been getting e-mails from people wanting to get involved in CRW at Skydive Twin Cities. The desire is here....


VincentVL.  (Student)

Nov 26, 2007, 9:42 AM
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Re: [kkeenan] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
If you're not interested in CRW, there are a lot of other forums here to spend your time on. Just because you don't have the talent or the nuts to do CRW, what make you think anyone here even cares about your opinion.

Kevin K.

Aaah the magic of internet. There's always someone who's offended for the wrong reasons. I never said CRW didn't interest me. I never said it is boring. Only that it might seem that way to some students.
I even put that in bold. Wink

So please try not to act like a twelve year old girl next time. Cause if you do, people might not care about your opinion either.

Be safe and have fun.


waltappel

Nov 26, 2007, 1:49 PM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Cause if you do, people might not care about your opinion either.

Saying that to Kevin Keenan, now *that* is funny!!!
LaughLaughLaugh

Walt


VincentVL.  (Student)

Nov 26, 2007, 3:09 PM
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Re: [waltappel] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Well...if I wanted to travel across the galaxy I wouldBlush

But I believe we should reinstate those good old fashioned values in the cesspool that is the internet. I never offended Kevin Keenan or the sport, so I don't see why I should merit such a response.

My apologies to the original poster. Back on track it is...


(This post was edited by VincentVL. on Nov 26, 2007, 3:13 PM)


VectorBoy  (F 321)

Nov 26, 2007, 3:40 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

 
The reason CReW disappeared here is that as canopies became more specialized
In reply to:

Some people believe that skydivers have lost the ability to land an older style seven cell canopy, which lightnings are. I'll agree that the lightnings require better timing than spectres, tri's and diablos will let you get away with.

Do we need to scrap the old F-111's in place of newer Lightnings?
In reply to:

I heard a rumor that there is the new PD CReW canopy soon to be released. I heard that will open softer and have a much better landing than the lightning yet be just as practical for CReW.


waltappel

Nov 26, 2007, 3:48 PM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Ok, back on track.

I've started to post a response to the OP several times and trashed it because I'm relatively new at CRW. I don't know what it would take to have an outstanding CRW program at a DZ but I do know what has made it easier for me to do CRW.

I started with a Triathlon hybrid 175 setup for CRW and still have that as my freefall canopy. I made a few dozen CRW jumps (many of them "CRW attempts"), then I got a Lightning 160 and started doing a lot of jumps with a friend who has a Lightning 143. I wear weights to match our wingloading. As soon as I started doing that, CRW suddenly became *much* easier.

Although matching canopies/wingloading does *not* compensate for lack of skill, it makes it a lot easier to be successful.

I think if you have a group of similar canopies around (some as loaners) and some weights so you can match wingloading, then nobody will have to fight their canopy to do CRW and that should make it easier for everyone.

I hope this helps.

Walt


DJL  (D License)

Nov 27, 2007, 9:34 AM
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Re: [VincentVL.] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
CreW is playing Tetris in the sky with slow ass canopies.

Go do a serious rotations, sequential, or 8-way speed jump and get back to us.

In the context of new jumpers:
This is why people should do CRW when they're just off of AFF - just like I did...jump #38.


(This post was edited by DJL on Nov 27, 2007, 9:38 AM)


Premier faulknerwn  (D 17441)
Moderator
Nov 27, 2007, 6:33 PM
Post #20 of 36 (4948 views)
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Re: [DJL] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Quote:
CreW is playing Tetris in the sky with slow ass canopies.

Go do a serious rotations, sequential, or 8-way speed jump and get back to us.</quote>

That is a laugh - many competition teams load their canopies at greater than 2.0 - far from slow. I agree about teaching beginners CRW early - that's when they'll realize how much there is to the discipline.


RaulR  (D License)

Nov 27, 2007, 7:49 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
Is there a Dawg out there that could run a seminar here?
Do we need to scrap the old F-111's in place of newer Lightnings? Or, should we keep plugging away with these old Furrys and Mavricks in an effort to generate interest and develop skills?
Should a group from here go somewhere to get training?

Mike,

It's great to hear that there is interest in CRW at your DZ. To get you guys going, I'll be glad to organize a training camp for your group at Z-Hills. The first step would be to work on the basic skills and the new techniques that have been developed in the last few years. The idea would be to give your group the foundation to continue safely on their own.

Regarding equipment, it is best to go with the Lightnings since they will allow the group to participate in CRW camps everywhere

For the training, we might be able to obtain demos depending on the number of participants. Also, their level of experience with CRW and Skydiving in general may determine the need for one-on-one or small group work. But those details can be discussed further later.

Raul


CRWCheryl  (D License)

Nov 28, 2007, 7:51 PM
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Re: [skyjumpenfool] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

Even before a CRW camp, there are things you can do to learn more about your parachute and relativity with others. The easiest is a game of monkey see/monkey do.

Start with 2 people in the air. Make sure one of them is thinking of landing back on the airport.

Set up next to each other. Test relativity to each other by both people going into full flight with no hands on the controls.

Now, start playing with the controls. The lead person pulls front risers and stops. After the lead stops, the second person front risers and hopefully ends up in about the same original position - flying next to each other.

Do the same thing, one person at a time, and test out other flight controls. Brakes, Rear Risers, maybe stalls, maybe different intensity of cross control.

To get it out of your system, one time have the lead person spiral out/away and down/behind. Make sure that you are watching the follower so that they don't spiral down into you. For most CRW, spirals have limited use. They tend to put a person below and behind the formation until you have a good feel for them. (However, they are very useful in formation loads, especially when you are dropped high and in front of a formation.)

When you get down AND LAND ON THE DROPZONE, consider whether your risers are set up with easy controls. Do you need your front riser blocks in different places? Are you able to pull on front risers with your hands in your brake toggles WITHOUT pulling on the brakes? Can you quickly get to all controls?

Anyway.... A few thoughts on getting started, even before you are at a CRW camp.


waltappel

Nov 28, 2007, 8:27 PM
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Re: [CRWCheryl] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

One thing some of us at Skydive Temple have been doing is playing with "canopy balls". On solo jumps we'll open high and release a ball with long streamers attached. The ball has roughly the same rate of descent as a canopy.

Anyway, the object is to chase it and catch it. It can be surprisingly challenging. I know people have done similar things at other DZs. If anyone's interested, I'll write up the details of making canopy balls and post it.

Walt


gotwins  (D 26854)

Nov 29, 2007, 2:19 PM
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Re: [waltappel] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

OK Walt, ,I'll bite!
If your willing to post it I'd love to know more about Crw Balls!


waltappel

Nov 29, 2007, 5:03 PM
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Re: [gotwins] Crew Returns to Skydive Twin Cities! Now What? [In reply to] Can't Post

In reply to:
OK Walt, ,I'll bite!
If your willing to post it I'd love to know more about Crw Balls!

I've attached a pic of what I call a "canopy ball". The idea is to have something that is the equivalent of what freeflyers call a "space ball", only you play with in when you're under canopy.

There are any number of ways to create something like this. I think the first time I heard about it was when a guy on rec.skydiving said he would sometimes play around with "Nerf" balls under canopy. I wasn't too crazy about that idea because they aren't all that cheap and could be easily lost and I seriously doubt they are biodegradable.

At my home DZ (Skydive Temple) in Texas, we have neighbors that have cows and horses, so we need to use materials that will not cause them any harm in case we lose one and an animal tries to eat it. Of course we are also mindful of the fact that we can't use any materials heavy and dense enough to harm people or property if they fall to the ground.

Here are what my CRW partner Drew and I use:

* Shredded paper
* Biodegradable cellophane bags
* Biodegradable flagging tape
* Paper masking tape

We have found that using from 2 to 4 ounces of shredded paper will give you the fall range you need. Start with 2 oz.for a *very* lightly loaded canopy (e.g., less than 1:1), 3 oz. for a moderately loaded canopy, and 4 oz. for an agressive canopy. You can tune the fall rate easily by adding or removing 1/2 oz. at a time.

For streamers (made of flagging tape), we have found the length to be important. We use lengths of about 12 feet. Folded in half, the streamer length from the ball to the tip of the streamer is between 5 and 6 ft. Longer lengths tend to tangle in suspension lines almost automatically, but do not make the ball that much more visible in freefall.

I should mention here that there is absolutely *no* problem with canopy balls getting tangled in your suspension lines. You are unlikely to notice any change in your canopy's flight characteristics.

In case you are thinking about using rolls of crepe paper for the streamers, be aware that your suspension lines will shred the crepe paper. It is just not durable enough for this.

To make a canopy ball, take 8 (more or less) 12 ft. lengths of flagging tape, fold them (as a group) in the middle, and tie a couple of knots just above the fold.

Next, Fill a bag with shredded paper until it is the desired weight.

Finally, put the knot of the streamers into the bag and wrap masking tape around the "neck" of the bag to secure it.

Before taking it on a jump, you'll need to S-fold the streamers and secure them to the ball with something easily removable. The second picture shows an example.

We find that it's generally smart to take two canopy balls with you. You can put one or both in a fanny pack or stuff them down a jumpsuit. I generally exit with one in my left hand when I exit. After deploying my canopy and releasing the brakes, I start a wide, slow turn with one hand and deploy the canopy ball with the other, keeping it in sight.

This is the fun part! The idea is to chase it, catch it, and release it again for some more fun. For another challenge, you can pass it back and forth between two canopies.

What I've described is not new and it's certainly not the only way of doing it. Here is a link to another point of view on it.

However you do it, I highly recommend giving it a try. Not only is it fun, it's a real skill builder and might be a great way to slowly work someone into trying CRW.

Please post your experiences with it!

Walt
Attachments: canopy_ball.jpg (27.5 KB)
  canopy_ball_folded.jpg (6.18 KB)


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