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What Can We Do About Skyride II

 

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Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

Nov 15, 2007, 9:40 AM
Post #1 of 925 (16420 views)
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     What Can We Do About Skyride II  

*Please read this thread first.*

This is the new place for discussing Skyride related issues, as referred to in the thread I linked to above. Links to other supporting information:

  • The original "What Can We Do About Skyride?" thread from 2004 (ChasingBlueSky)

  • The list of US DZs that accept (or don't accept) Skyride certificates (Thanatos240)


  • External Link - "The Complaints Board"


  • More to follow over the next few days as I post links to pertinent and important content from the original thread.

    This thread is now open for business . . .


    (This post was edited by slotperfect on Nov 16, 2007, 12:32 PM)


    lauraliscious  (C 35895)

    Nov 15, 2007, 11:58 AM
    Post #2 of 925 (16170 views)
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         Re: [slotperfect] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Thank you John, that was getting out of hand. Smile

    Could you maybe put the list of DZ's at the END of the thread that J started? The updated list is in the middle of all that off topic stuff and is hard to find...


    jee  (C License)

    Nov 15, 2007, 12:29 PM
    Post #3 of 925 (16125 views)
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         Re: [slotperfect] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    what's the big deal about skyride? i've seen and read many threads but nowhere have i seen what the actual discrepency is.`


    Thanatos340  (B 27588)

    Nov 15, 2007, 12:39 PM
    Post #4 of 925 (16110 views)
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         Re: [jee] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Summary:

    They have over 900 web sites for Dropzones that do Not really exist. Those websites are full of lies and deception.
    They pretend to whatever Dropzone you think you are calling and then once you buy a NON-REFUNDABLE Tandem Certificate, the victim finds that they sometimes have to drive 100`s of miles away to use it.

    Their websites (the ones for Dropzones that do not exist) used to be full of Stolen pictures from other skydivers and dropzones.

    When a well respected DZO died a couple years ago, They called AT&T pretending to be the dead DZO and had all the calls for that DZ rerouted to their call center. Basically Stole the phone number from his Widow.

    When the USPA Kicked them out for their deceptive tactics and dishonest business practices, They sued the USPA for Millions.


    kallend  (D 23151)

    Nov 15, 2007, 1:04 PM
    Post #5 of 925 (16078 views)
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         Re: [jee] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    In reply to:
    what's the big deal about skyride? i've seen and read many threads but nowhere have i seen what the actual discrepency is.`

    The lies and fraud have been endlessly discussed in these threads. If you don't consider lies and fraud to be "discrepancy", then I have to wonder.


    skinnyshrek  (D 25109)

    Nov 15, 2007, 1:08 PM
    Post #6 of 925 (16076 views)
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         Re: [Thanatos340] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    What ever happened with the uspa/skyshite lawsuit. I know they were meant to have the information on the 15th November.


    Premier slotperfect  (D 13014)

    Nov 15, 2007, 1:19 PM
    Post #7 of 925 (16053 views)
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         Re: [lauraliscious] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Done. I also added a link ot the original post that sends any newcomers there.


    CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

    Nov 15, 2007, 3:24 PM
    Post #8 of 925 (15954 views)
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         Re: [slotperfect] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Quote:
    good question and no we do not. Maybe is because skydivers are not very business like i do not know but we service customers from almost any event you can think of but yet we only have issue with skydiving. Weird huh? maybe its because we operate a legit business and only get negative feedback from skydivers who are not very business savy..... And we do not screw anybody or else we wouldnt still be in business...

    I will tell you like i told the others we had about 366 BBB complaints dating back from 04 we sell to over 300 customers on any given DAY now 366 complaints over a three year period is 122 a year now out of that 122 people who complaints that means thats about 70K (just for that one year)customer who did not complain so let me know what you think about that.. Not to mention we sell for more than just skydiving. so out of a 250,000 customers we had 366 complaints. So now that you have the facts how do we look now????

    Quoting Ryan in one of the locked threads.

    Bull shit. I have talked to balloon operators that feel the same way we do about the service(dis-service) you provide to their customers. People do a search for balloon rides and you will find the same consumer warnings that many skydiving operations have on their sites.

    As for the number of BBB complaints this is basically because most people just take the fucking and go on with their lives. Think about it people. How many times have you gotten less then the service that you expected and when it was all over you just went on without taking any action?? Maybe having learned something but you got fucked just the same.

    Ryan, you can quit using that one now because that is all it means. People will not take the time to make a formal complaint. That does not mean you run a good business. This and the fact that DZOs are too fucking stupid to do what they need to do to put this thing to bed, is the reason you are able to continue to screw people. Ryan I would think a whole lot more of you if you would either quit coming here or just admit to what it is that you do. At least if you admit it you could say you are somewhat honest.


    kelpdiver  (B 7)

    Nov 15, 2007, 4:18 PM
    Post #9 of 925 (15911 views)
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         Re: [CSpenceFLY] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    In reply to:
    As for the number of BBB complaints this is basically because most people just take the fucking and go on with their lives. Think about it people. How many times have you gotten less then the service that you expected and when it was all over you just went on without taking any action?? Maybe having learned something but you got fucked just the same.

    Most people take a live and learn approach, and vote with their pockets afterwards. Get bad auto service or food at a restaurant - don't go there anymore. So long as you get some level of service for some price, you grit your teeth and move on.

    Since most tandem jumpers don't do more jumps, there's no correction applied. And that's why the BBB/ word of mouth fixes don't work.

    On the claim that there were only 300 complaints with the BBB, so everyone must be happy. You have to multiple by some factor...the FCC assumes that every person that complains about a swear word on TV represents 1 billion people, so we can do the same here. 300 is a lot more than most companies see.


    (This post was edited by kelpdiver on Nov 15, 2007, 4:20 PM)


    rushmc  (No License)

    Nov 15, 2007, 5:11 PM
    Post #10 of 925 (15881 views)
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         Re: [Thanatos340] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    I just got a PM from a person ( who did have the guts to list his name and put that he was the business development director for skyride) who basicly called me a liar concerning the skyride web site that listed the University of Iowa Jumping Hawkeyes.

    Well, the Hawkeyes are not listed because I know the U of I called them telling them to stop using the trade mark but, the Iowa City search is still there. There is no DZ in or within an hour of Iowa City except for Skydive Iowa that is in Brooklyn Iowa

    http://www.1800skyride.com/...City/directions.html

    edited to add; Paradise Skydives is an hour and half north. Neither acept skyride certs


    (This post was edited by rushmc on Nov 15, 2007, 5:21 PM)


    Squeak  (E 1313)

    Nov 15, 2007, 5:15 PM
    Post #11 of 925 (15877 views)
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         Re: [Thanatos340] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    In reply to:
    Summary:
    Quote:
    They have over 900 web sites for Dropzones that do Not really exist. Those websites are full of lies and deception.
    They pretend to whatever Dropzone you think you are calling and then once you buy a NON-REFUNDABLE Tandem Certificate, the victim finds that they sometimes have to drive 100`s of miles away to use it.
    This in aND OF ITSELF IS A COMMON PRACTICE THAT MANY PEOPLE USE, THE yELOOW PAGES phone book is filled with operators that advertise under vaious company names and areas all leading to one common phone room. if the "non refundable cert" is advertised as such this too is common practice


    Quote:
    When the USPA Kicked them out for their deceptive tactics and dishonest business practices, They sued the USPA for Millions.

    For ALLEGED deceptive tactics it's up to the courts to decide on the verasity of those allergations not you or DZ.com



    (This post was edited by Squeak on Nov 15, 2007, 5:16 PM)


    Thanatos340  (B 27588)

    Nov 15, 2007, 5:40 PM
    Post #12 of 925 (15841 views)
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         Re: [Squeak] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    Summary:
    Quote:
    They have over 900 web sites for Dropzones that do Not really exist. Those websites are full of lies and deception.
    They pretend to whatever Dropzone you think you are calling and then once you buy a NON-REFUNDABLE Tandem Certificate, the victim finds that they sometimes have to drive 100`s of miles away to use it.
    This in aND OF ITSELF IS A COMMON PRACTICE THAT MANY PEOPLE USE, THE yELOOW PAGES phone book is filled with operators that advertise under vaious company names and areas all leading to one common phone room. if the "non refundable cert" is advertised as such this too is common practice


    Quote:
    When the USPA Kicked them out for their deceptive tactics and dishonest business practices, They sued the USPA for Millions.

    For ALLEGED deceptive tactics it's up to the courts to decide on the verasity of those allergations not you or DZ.com

    OK.. Well Look at this then:

    http://www.skydivesouthcarolina.com/aircraft.html

    Take the first sentence:
    "The aircraft used at Skydive South Carolina are second to none."
    False. There is no such Place as Skydive South Carolina. It does not exist.

    The second sentence:
    "Skydive South Carolina uses TURBINE AIRCRAFT 7 days a week, 365 days a year."
    False. Not only is there no such place as Skydive South Carolina, but the only affiliate there is NOT open 365/7 nor does it have Turbine aircraft.

    Next sentence:
    "We are the ONLY skydiving center in South Carolina that guarantees 14,000 foot skydives every day."
    Again, FALSE. They dont have a Dropzone in South Carolina that can go anywhere near 14,000 feet. The only affiliate they have there is a Cessna 182 DZ that only goes to 10K or 11K feet.

    That entire site repeatedly refers to "Skydive South Carolina". NOT a 3rd party booking agency that serves SC. That site makes every effort to appear to a customer that a Place called Skydive South Carolina actually exists, Has Turbine Aircraft and goes to 14K feet.

    None of which is true. All Blatant lies to deceive the customer. Not Exaggerations, Not Marketing Hype.. FALSE Statements that they Know are False.

    That is just 1 example of one page of the 900 sites that skyride runs.


    (This post was edited by Thanatos340 on Nov 15, 2007, 5:44 PM)


    jee  (C License)

    Nov 15, 2007, 6:36 PM
    Post #13 of 925 (15784 views)
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         Re: [kallend] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    In reply to:
    In reply to:
    what's the big deal about skyride? i've seen and read many threads but nowhere have i seen what the actual discrepency is.`

    The lies and fraud have been endlessly discussed in these threads. If you don't consider lies and fraud to be "discrepancy", then I have to wonder.

    Well Mr. Kallend, wonder you may wonder you might. You are however right. The lies and frauds have been discussed. WHAT lies and frauds seemed to be buried deep within the bowels of the threads. Thanks for clearing things up for me. I can now understand much better the animosity felt by many.


    marks  (D 22296)

    Nov 15, 2007, 6:43 PM
    Post #14 of 925 (15779 views)
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         Re: [CSpenceFLY] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Quote:
    Ryan I would think a whole lot more of you if you would either quit coming here or just admit to what it is that you do. At least if you admit it you could say you are somewhat honest.

    everyone is somewhat honest, if they are willing to admit it or not.

    "it's all in the name of business" in this day and age, will not get my "business" or my referrals. it is NOT all about business. this shit is personal my friend.


    peanut4040  (D 23837)

    Nov 15, 2007, 6:55 PM
    Post #15 of 925 (15760 views)
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         Re: [slotperfect] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    aww jeeseee,, no wonder I get in so much trouble over here. The rules keep changing.-- or is it the rats get faster.

    In defense of slotperfect. You are on to something here, I'm old and its hard to keep up with allthe stuff. I support ya.

    giggle,,, someone is wondering______


    jee  (C License)

    Nov 15, 2007, 6:57 PM
    Post #16 of 925 (15755 views)
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         Re: [Thanatos340] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    hey thanks Thanatos,

    I have to wonder though.....as deceitful as this business seems are they not taking advantage of what would be available to anybody living in a country based on capitalism? That of an open and free market. Has anyone stopped to think that this may be the sour that comes with the sweet? There are many other businesses that advertise in a similar manner. Have you ever looked up a plumbing company in the phone book yellow pages?
    Make no mistake about it, I am not advocating this type of business. I am only playing devil's advocate to get a better understanding of the situation.
    What's the difference with this business other than the lawsuit against the USPA and skydivers in general? Is anybody being hurt physically or financially? Is anybody not getting what they're paying for?
    Food for thought.


    pilotdave  (D License)

    Nov 15, 2007, 7:38 PM
    Post #17 of 925 (15731 views)
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         Re: [jee] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Quote:
    s anybody not getting what they're paying for?

    Yeah, everybody that pays a pilot chute fee gets a pilot chute.

    It's pointless to reiterate all the stories about skyride in yet another thread. If you really want to know about skyride and not just argue, the information is out there. Do a google search for "skyride scam" and you can find all sorts good stuff.

    Here's a good one to get you started: http://www.complaintsboard.com/...0skyride-c14757.html

    It's a long read, but pretty entertaining. Nice insight into what goes on at Skyride. Ryan Berger wouldn't know anything about this stuff though...

    Dave


    (This post was edited by pilotdave on Nov 15, 2007, 7:41 PM)


    CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

    Nov 16, 2007, 4:31 AM
    Post #18 of 925 (15616 views)
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         Re: [slotperfect] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Quote:
    I run a glider ride operation in the San Francisco Bay area http://www.BayAreaGliderRides.com and we have had many unhappy customers calling us to complain about these guys. I have even had them schedule me for a glider ride at my own location when I called even though there is not a glider ride location in the state of California that honors their certificates. They later told me that the operation in my area was now closed and I would need to go to another state. They seemed to be willing to say anything to get me to give them my credit card number.

    The glider ride operators have set up a site to help educate the public about the problem and give a directory of the real operators in the country. http://www.GliderSailplaneRides.com This website also shows all the glider ride operators in the country plus the few operators that still do accept the certificates from this company. Hopefully by employees coming forward like this we will be able to convince the few service providers that are still honoring their certificates that they are not a company to be associated with. Google and Yahoo are not willing to remove them from their search engines or even their paid sponsor ads because they say they are worried of being sued since most customers that are scammed never complain to them. They need proof so please claim to the companies with the power to remove these guys from there main sources they use to commit this fraud.

    Please help get the word out. This has been going on for years and it is very frustrating how they can not be stopped. It not only hurts the customer but all the businesses that provide these rides and activities.


    Here is the answer to someones question in one of the other thread. Do other industries have the same problems with Skyride?


    davelepka  (D 21448)

    Nov 16, 2007, 5:32 AM
    Post #19 of 925 (15591 views)
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         Re: [jee] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Quote:
    I have to wonder though.....as deceitful as this business seems are they not taking advantage of what would be available to anybody living in a country based on capitalism?

    They're operating in a grey area of the market, the internet. Just because federal law makers haven't caught up to the scammers in regards to internet business, doesn't make it right.

    Look at the classifieds here on DZ.com, or think about e-bay. They both have a system in place to deal with, and expose fraud. The reason they have to handle it themsemlves is because the lawmakers can't keep up. The scams change everyday, they're interstate or international, and the sheer numbers all add up to an area where crooks can operate freely.

    What Skyride does is not a case 'good business' that it's competitors are jealous of. What they do can hardly be considered 'business'. It's actually closer to organized crime if you think about it.

    They come in, use deceptive advertising practices to lure your customers into their fold, then hold those customers hostage and force the DZ to cut Skyride into the profits those customers will generate, or they will send them elsewhere.

    I could see if Skyrie actually owned a DZ, and was willing to do the work themselves, then it would just be their superior advertising that earned them a customer, that would be good business.

    But the fact is that they don't have a DZ (in 99% of the cases). They sell a product they cannot deliver on, and then bend the actual service providers over a barrel in the aftermath. DZs are forced to either accept the certificates, or watch customers in their area drive past their DZ to a location that will accept them.

    It really is some straight up gangster shit.

    I could see if this was a huge market, like cell phone service, or garbage pick-up, services than almost everyone needs creating an endless pool of customers. But that's not the case, DZs have a limited number of customers to pull from, and they need each and every one of them to remain solvent.

    Ever heard of Skydive Chicago? Crosskeys? Mayeb Perris Valley? Sure you have, those are huge DZs. The secret to their success? Easy - Chicago, New York City, and Los Angeles. They have the population to draw from to grow into the mega-DZs they are today.

    Ever heard Skydive South Iowa? Or how about East Nebraska Parachuting? Me neither, actually I just made them up, but I know there are DZs just like that all over the place. The real problem is that Skyride poaches customers just as hard in those places as they do in the big cities. It's all web based so it's cheap and easy create a website that covers EVERY geographic area possible.

    How many tandems do think that Skdive South Iowa can afford to loose each season? My guess is very few, so they are backed into a corner - either deal with Skyride or go out of business, and that's fucked up.


    (This post was edited by davelepka on Nov 16, 2007, 5:35 AM)


    CSpenceFLY  (D 25252)

    Nov 16, 2007, 6:48 AM
    Post #20 of 925 (15548 views)
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         Re: [CSpenceFLY] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    This link shoud be added to the first page.

    http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/14757/page/1


    Mike111

    Nov 16, 2007, 6:49 AM
    Post #21 of 925 (15548 views)
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         Re: [davelepka] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    wtf they can't even spell!!!!

    "For a more advanced approach, AFF (Accelerated Freefall) training is available. You may expiowacitynce an AFF Level one jump as your first Iowa skydive, and should you decide to continue, it will be considered the first portion of your skydiving certification program".

    lol expiowactiyncye? i wouldn't trust skyride to manage an umbrella stall if they can't even spell!


    jee  (C License)

    Nov 16, 2007, 7:50 AM
    Post #22 of 925 (15502 views)
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         Re: [davelepka] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    In reply to:
    Quote:
    I have to wonder though.....as deceitful as this business seems are they not taking advantage of what would be available to anybody living in a country based on capitalism?

    They're operating in a grey area of the market, the internet. Just because federal law makers haven't caught up to the scammers in regards to internet business, doesn't make it right.

    Look at the classifieds here on DZ.com, or think about e-bay. They both have a system in place to deal with, and expose fraud. The reason they have to handle it themsemlves is because the lawmakers can't keep up. The scams change everyday, they're interstate or international, and the sheer numbers all add up to an area where crooks can operate freely.

    What Skyride does is not a case 'good business' that it's competitors are jealous of. What they do can hardly be considered 'business'. It's actually closer to organized crime if you think about it.

    They come in, use deceptive advertising practices to lure your customers into their fold, then hold those customers hostage and force the DZ to cut Skyride into the profits those customers will generate, or they will send them elsewhere.

    I could see if Skyrie actually owned a DZ, and was willing to do the work themselves, then it would just be their superior advertising that earned them a customer, that would be good business.

    But the fact is that they don't have a DZ (in 99% of the cases). They sell a product they cannot deliver on, and then bend the actual service providers over a barrel in the aftermath. DZs are forced to either accept the certificates, or watch customers in their area drive past their DZ to a location that will accept them.

    It really is some straight up gangster shit.

    I could see if this was a huge market, like cell phone service, or garbage pick-up, services than almost everyone needs creating an endless pool of customers. But that's not the case, DZs have a limited number of customers to pull from, and they need each and every one of them to remain solvent.

    Ever heard of Skydive Chicago? Crosskeys? Mayeb Perris Valley? Sure you have, those are huge DZs. The secret to their success? Easy - Chicago, New York City, and Los Angeles. They have the population to draw from to grow into the mega-DZs they are today.

    Ever heard Skydive South Iowa? Or how about East Nebraska Parachuting? Me neither, actually I just made them up, but I know there are DZs just like that all over the place. The real problem is that Skyride poaches customers just as hard in those places as they do in the big cities. It's all web based so it's cheap and easy create a website that covers EVERY geographic area possible.

    How many tandems do think that Skdive South Iowa can afford to loose each season? My guess is very few, so they are backed into a corner - either deal with Skyride or go out of business, and that's fucked up.

    I agree that this is very grey and isn't very nice. However it is very similar to websites such as hotels.com and expedia.com. Albeit they don't actually "ghost" the way skyride does. Have you ever made a hotel reservation on expedia.com? You are not paying the hotel. You are paying Expedia. Expedia then contracts with a hotel at a substantially lower rate unbeknownst to you.
    I am in the hotel business and even though I don't like it I have no choice but to deal with these people. They're advertising power takes much of my potential business. If I didn't deal with them I would simply lose business to the other hotels that do deal with them. I really don't see much difference here and I'm afraid it's going to turn out that the Skyride business is perfectly legal. That doesn't make it right just not nice.
    Welcome to the free world.


    Thanatos340  (B 27588)

    Nov 16, 2007, 7:57 AM
    Post #23 of 925 (15493 views)
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         Re: [jee] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    The difference is that Expedia and Orbitz and others are Honest. You know everything up front and can make an informed decision. You know who you are dealing with.

    Skyride hides who they are, Pretends to be someone else, Lies about where you will making your jump and then lies about the competition. All of these things are illegal, Fraudulent and dishonest.

    I think a 3rd party Booking service for Skydiving is a great thing.. IF the Booking service was honest. Skyride is not.

    See attached for the Georgia Attorney General Thought about Skyride.
    Attachments: 869420861800SkyRide.pdf (289 KB)


    dragon2  (D 101989)

    Nov 16, 2007, 9:34 AM
    Post #24 of 925 (15424 views)
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         Re: [jee] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    I've seen skyride websites which had pics on them of our plane, our DZ, that's Teuge THE NETHERLANDS advertised as their own plane and pics, the photographer of course wasn't credited or notified and of course had not given permission.

    I've seen Spanish and French planes on their websites too so I suppose those pics have been lifted off other websites too.

    I know they copied entire website layouts.

    That's all copyright theft, but what're ya gonna do from this side of the pond. It does not make it legal in any way if we don't sue!


    rberger

    Nov 16, 2007, 9:44 AM
    Post #25 of 925 (15409 views)
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         Re: [davelepka] What Can We Do About Skyride II [In reply to]  

    Quick questions when you say we back people into a corner remember we do not do out bound call they call us.. So let me ask you this when was the last time you were forced to look up a website and then someone MADE you call the number and then the guy on the OTHER end of the phone forced you to give your CC number out i mean fuckin really how the hell can we force someone when people call in here......
    its cause they are looking for something and if the location we have is to far awayor they just dont want it they do not buy(on there on free will) but thats the customers choice not ours Whens the last time some randon company made choices for you??

    It sounds like it happens all the time maybe i can force you to buy a bra and panties... actually im gonna, and then im gonna hold you hostage until you put them on for me and dance hell yea

    also we do not sell to areas we cannot service so if we do not have a DZ where the customer wants to go then the Actual DZ in the area are not loosing anything since we are not selling anything. and if the DZ in rural areas market right aspeciall in the surounding cities where there is a revenue stream, but most do not so you cannot point your finger us because of lack of marketing by DZO's

    Oh by the way we own three DZ's


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